Don’t you dare tell me to check my privilege

Julie Burchill vs Paris Lees

In the early 1970s, my dad was a singular sort of feminist. As well as working all night in a factory, he had banned my mother from the kitchen for as long as I could remember because, and I quote, ‘Women gets hysterical and you needs to be calm in a kitchen.’ He also adored tough broads: ‘There’s a lady!’ he would yell appreciatively at Mrs Desai when the Grunwick strike came on TV, the Indian women wearing English winter coats over their hard-core saris. ‘Thass a lady too!’ — May Hobbs, the pretty leader of the cleaners’ strike. ‘What a woman!’ he would swoon when the lesbian tennis champ Billie Jean King shrugged off yet another trophy.

Only once in a while did his righteousness get on my wick, like the Christmas when he heard there were some striking bakers nearby and he made my mum pack our Christmas dinner (with all the trimmings!) into Tupperware boxes so he could take it down to the starving brothers freezing around the brazier down on the picket line.

‘Mu-um!’ I whined, full of tweenage self-pity (if nothing else), ‘They’re ba-akers! I dunno, why can’t they… BAKE something and have that instead?’ My mother didn’t miss a beat, shoving chipolatas into the squashed smorgasbord with real savagery: ‘Because if we don’t do it, your dad’s gonna be miserable all day. Best get it over with.’

It’s easy for me to sentimentalise those days when the trade unions held sway, chiming as they did with the calf country of my communism, but whatever their beery and sandwichy limits, they were far better than what replaced them; the politics of diversity. While working-class left-wing political activism was always about fighting the powerful, treating people how you would wish to be treated and believing that we’re all basically the same, modern, non-working-class left-wing politics is about… other stuff. Class guilt, sexual kinks, personal prejudice and repressed lust for power. The trade union movement gave us brother Bill Morris and Mrs Desai; the diversity movement has given us a rainbow coalition of cranks and charlatans. Which has, in turn, has given us intersectionality.

Intersectionality may well sound like some unfortunate bowel complaint resulting in copious use of a colostomy bag, and indeed it does contain a large amount of ordure. Wikipedia defines it as ‘the study of intersections between different disenfranchised groups or groups of minorities; specifically, the study of the interactions of multiple systems of oppression or discrimination’, which seems rather mature and dignified. In reality, it seeks to make a manifesto out of the nastiest bits of Mean Girls, wherein non-white feminists especially are encouraged to bypass the obvious task of tackling the patriarchy’s power in favour of bitching about white women’s perceived privilege in terms of hair texture and body shape. Think of all those episodes of Jerry Springer where two women who look like Victoria’s Secret models — one black, one white — bitch-fight over a man who resembles a Jerusalem artichoke, sitting smugly in the middle, and you have the end result of intersectionality made all too foul flesh. It may have been intended as a way for disabled women of colour to address such allegedly white-ableist-feminist-specific issues as equal pay, but it’s ended up as a screaming, squawking, grievance-hawking shambles.

The supreme irony of intersectionality is that it both barracks ‘traditional’ feminists for ignoring the issues of differently abled and differently ethnic women while at the same time telling them they have no right to discuss them because they don’t understand them — a veritable Pushmi-Pullyu of a political movement. Entering the crazy world of intersectionality is quite like being locked in a hall of mirrors with a borderline personality disorder coach party. ‘Stop looking at me funny! Why are you ignoring me? Go away, I hate you! Come back, how dare you reject me!’ It’s politics, Jim, but certainly not as my dear old dad knew it.

In-fighting and backbiting have been raised to the level of a very sad Olympic sport — that’ll be the Special Olympics, of course, the real ones being ‘able-ist’. Every thought is an ism and every person an ist in the insania of intersectionality, where it is always winter and never Christmas — sorry, ‘Winterval’. (Mustn’t be Islamophobic.) But sexism, interestingly, isn’t really the hot ticket there; women get picked on — or ‘called out’, to use the approved phrase — more than anyone. Natural-born women, that is. When it happened to one of my dearest friends last year, I became an unwitting participant in this modern danse macabre.

One Friday in January 2013, I was showing off on Facebook of an afternoon — as is my wont now my career’s gone up the Swannee — when it was drawn to my attention that my amica of several decades standing, Suzanne Moore, was being ‘monstered’, as modern parlance has it, on Twitter. She’d actually been driven off it for refusing to apologise for something she’d said, subsequently becoming the target for all sorts of vile threats, including having her face ripped off and fed to feral dogs. Always up for a fight, I hurried through cyberspace, only to find my homey the target of a thoroughly monstrous regiment of bellicose transsexuals and their bed-wetting ‘cheerleaders’. Both groups had taken exception to the following line by Suzanne from an essay on female anger: ‘We are angry with ourselves for not being happier, not being loved properly and not having the ideal body shape — that of a Brazilian transsexual.’

Repelled by the filthy threats which were flying fierce and fast at my friend, I began to talk trash on my Facebook page — though even my trash-talk, it must be said, has a vicious elegance that most people’s A-game lacks. I opined that a bunch of gender-benders trying to tell my mate how to write was akin to the Black and White Minstrels advising Usain Bolt on how to run. I stated that it was outrageous that a woman of style and substance should be driven from her chosen mode of time-wasting by a bunch of dicks in chicks’ clothing and their snivelling suck-ups. The usual cool, calm and collected sort of consideration I’m famous for.

It was interesting to me that, rather than join Miss Moore in decrying the notion that every broad should aim to look like an oven-ready porn star, the very cross cross-dressing lobby and their grim groupies had picked on the messenger instead — presumably in order to add to their already flourishing sense of grievance. Suzanne is a life-long left-winger and a feminist — why, I wondered, were fellow travellers threatening her in so rabid a manner? But this, I was to learn, was par for the crotchety course.

Suzanne’s crime, it transpired, was to be ‘cis-gendered’ as opposed to transgendered (that is, she was born female) and not to have ‘checked her privilege’ — what passes for a battle cry in certain ever-decreasing circles these dog days. It’s hardly ‘No pasarán!’ — rather, it declares an intention that it is better to be nagged to death on one’s knees rather than stand by one’s principles on one’s feet. Consider how lucky you are, born women, before you raise your voice above that of a trans-sister! — that veritable cornucopian horn of plenty which we lucky breed fortunate enough to be born to a sensory smorgasbord of periods, PMT, the menopause, HRT and being bothered ceaselessly for sex by random male strangers since puberty take such flagrant delight in revelling in, shameless hussies that we are. Add to this that Suzanne was, like myself, born into the English working class, and therefore marginally less likely to have beaten the odds than a dancing dog or busker’s cat to have become a public figure, and I was buggered (not being homophobic, there) if I was going to put up with a bunch of middle-class seat-sniffers, educated beyond all instinct and honesty, laying into my girl.

But it wasn’t just that. It was an instinctive desire to defend the socialism of my dead father. Because intersectionality is actually the opposite of socialism! Intersectionality believes that there is ‘no such thing as society’ — just various special interests.

In my opinion, we only become truly brave, truly above self-interest, when fighting for people different from ourselves. My hero as a kid was Jack Ashley — a deaf MP who became the champion of rape victims. These days, the likes of those who went after Suzanne would probably dismiss him as a self-loathing cis-ableist. Intersectionality, like identity politics before it, is pure narcissism.

Though it reminds us ceaselessly to ‘check our privilege’, intersectionality is the silliest privilege of them all, a gang of tools and twats tiptoeing around others’ finer feelings rather than getting stuck in, mucking in, like proper mates — the ultimate privilege, which is to serve each other with collective love and action. The most recently inter-species ruckus happened when the Deirdre Spart impersonator Laurie Penny wrote a passionate defence of the pixie cut in the New Statesman, only to get it in the sleekly shaved neck from women who accused her of not taking the different behaviour of African hair into consideration. When I asked a supporter of this lunacy whether she thought that every subject of interest to women should have every type of woman weighing in with her written opinion, she answered that yes, she did. Seriously? I don’t think my heart can stand the excitement of a weekly Staggers the size of a telephone directory.

I personally can understand black women occasionally getting teed off with their apparently carefree Wash’n’Go white stepsisters. But the most recent and reactionary development within this hissy-fitting hothouse — the insistence of intersectional feminists on the right of transsexuals not to be offended — tells you all you need to know about the essential stupidity of the movement.

The idea that a person can chose their gender — in a world where millions of people, especially ‘cis-gendered’ women, are not free to choose who they marry, what they eat or whether or not their genitals are cut off and sewn up with barbed wire when they are still babies — and have their major beautification operations paid for by the National Health Service seems the ultimate privilege, so don’t tell me to check mine. Here’s hoping that the in-fighting in-crowd of intersectionality disappear up their own intersection really soon, so the rest of us can resume creating a tolerant and united socialism.

Julie Burchill is a columnist, author, and self-proclaimed ‘militant feminist’.

Taggedcis-gendered, Disability, ethnicity, Facebook, Feminism, feminists, in-fighting, intersectionality, Laurie Penny, New Statesman, non-whites, patriarchy, principles, Privilege, Socialism, Suzanne Moore, transgendered, transsexuals, working-class

Show comments

manonthebus

I don’t know why I read this article; perhaps I was fascinated by a glimpse of a nether-world that was a million miles from my experience. However, I suddenly started to feel sorry for what appear to be a large number of people who lead sad, hopeless lives that will never get any better.
- dellagracevolcano
  
  manonthebus You must be glimpsing the life of the author who lives a sad and hopeless life because the lives of the vast majority of trans people I know are joyous and rich. This author is a bully and like all bullies it makes her feel better to demean those she thinks she can get away with bullying.
- Rob Harries
  
  nah, its like a political soap opera.
  
  Outrageous plotlines, easy villians and heroes, hugely entertaining, every other day is another shocking twist and even if a character dies (excommunicated and labeled an ism online) it doesnt matter because its fiction and you can get back to real life and enjoy normality.
  
  It is great value for money, it would be much more a tragedy about what has happened to the left if it wasnt so damn amusing.
  - Anthony Miller
    
    I like you avatar http://www.pearshapedcomedy.com/Philp_Corner.html
    - Rob Harries
      
      Ditto!
Flaming Fairy

Hahaha -brilliant stuff. You go girl!
Richard

The bottom has fallen out of the souffle.
Rob Harries

Worth noting though that the impulse to sanctimoniously condemn others for their political views or bad manners is something not just exclusive to the intersectionalist ‘left’ (scare quotes because plenty arent left wing in any political sense, just uppity social liberals).

The old anarchist and trotskyist left have plenty of people who love to condemn and hound other people for having the wrong view or political position. You can understand it, lacking in all influence and relevance, you can get worked up and feel superior by casting stones at someone else.

In my experience in hanging around the old style left, there was a disproportionate amount of very unpleasant characters, well above law of averages. Safe to say they were the biggest liabilities going in winning over people.
tirnanog

Malignant narcissism gets worse with age, and there is no cure.
Andrew Flood

Am I alone in thinking there is more that a little hypocrisy in these nasty articles attacking supposedly nasty tweeters. The power imbalance between established writers publishing these sort of attack pieces and those with only a twitter account to their name are staggering. There is little to this piece beyond an appeal to a nostalgic left that probably never existed and a long string of imaginative insults.
- AndrewS
  
  Burchill is a polemicist so this is what she does – and very well in my view. As for the power imbalance – it’s sort of like the power imbalance between a big game hunter and a swarm of angry hornets.
  - Rob Harries
    
    get the popcorn out, its gonna sting!
    
    woop! woop! FIGHT!
    - Tino Bambino
      
      poop
  - lesleystafford
    
    Burchill? A polemicist? You have to be kidding. A polemicist doesn’t need to return to last years dead ducks and wrap them in their woeful working class credentials. Pathetic.
    - seriatim
      
      You are allowed to laugh, you know!
  - akindependent
    
    Interesting. I found it so juvenile I couldn’t get through it.
- bawoman
  
  I cant stand any kind of feminism…but I will give this to intersectionality feminism…at least they practice what they preach, and they are far less hypocritical
  
  Non intersectional feminists have no problem going on and on and on how males are priviliged in society, and shunning them from any kind of discussion, and yet they flinch when the mirror reflects their own privilege on themselves. If men have less right to talk because they are more priviliged, shouldnt white cisgendered women have less of a say than, say, woc or trans women?
  - Dan
    
    That’s not true about most traditional feminists I know, where as far as the intersectional variety goes, though I don’t want to generalise, I’m not sure I can make a meaningful contribution at all, or even if an attempt to do so would be welcome.
  - global city
    
    only within the logic of their own appalling parlour game.
    
    The rest of us should just get on with debating issues as openly and as honestly as we can.
  - Bill Brown
    
    Marry me.
  - Cpt_Justice
    
    You are conflating many separate issues. Men are not told to “shut up” for *no reason*, but for when they *try talking down to women about women’s issues* – in *just the way you are trying to do *here.* The fact that you are a woman only makes you incorrect about what is going on, not sexist (per se).
  - Dana
    
    Excuse me, but there are quite a lot of white “cis”gendered women who are fairly short on the privilege. Now if you were to compare them to woc or gnc of the same social class they would have more privilege but compare them to say Oprah Winfrey or Bruce “Caitlyn” Jenner and the story would be entirely different.
    
    In fact working-class white women are pretty pissed off by this whole stupid argument, those who have time to pay attention at all in between their three minimum-wage jobs and juggling the daycare. Oh, did you notice Planned Parenthood’s about to be defunded? Bet that’s less important to you than whether their services are for “uterus-bearing people” instead of “women”.
    - marti386
      
      “Excuse me, but there are quite a lot of white “cis”gendered women who are fairly short on the privilege”
      
      Know what gets me? So called “feminists” who can’t seem to wrap their brains around the idea of intersectionality.
      
      Yes, some women are short on certain types of privilege. That doesn’t mean they don’t gain in other respects. Sure Oprah Winfrey has money privilege. That doesn’t mean she doesn’t face discrimination from being a woman of color. Same thing with Caitlyn (no quote marks are necessary). Just because she has money, doesn’t mean she doesn’t face discrimination for being a woman, or for being trans. And yes, cis women Do benefit from cis privilege. It doesn’t mean you don’t face oppression for being a woman. Stop conflating the two.
      
      “In fact working-class white women are pretty pissed off by this whole stupid argument, those who have time to pay attention at all in between their three minimum-wage jobs and juggling the daycare.”
      
      While I feel for your financial plight (I’m far from rich myself), that’s a bogus argument. Your financial problems have nothing to do with trans women, so unless you’re suggesting we caused your poverty, you’re just attempting to derail.
      
      “Oh, did you notice Planned Parenthood’s about to be defunded?”
      
      Yes I have. It appalls me. But again, trans women had nothing to do with that. You know, you CAN fight for all those things while still supporting the rights of trans women. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
      
      Multi-tasking is your friend.
- mikewaller
  
  I hope you are alone and am sure you are wrong. The modern electronic media have produced an appalling imbalance between those capable of commanding a wide audience under their own names and the clowns who attack from the shadows under pseudonyms. I think that part of the answer lies in having two levels of admission to such media. Those using pseudonyms should be subject to tight regulation whereas those using their own names should be free to take their chances with the law and/or public opprobrium. Certainly that clown of a student who had vile things to say about Mary Beard, shut up pretty quickly once “outed” by the mother of one of his pals.
  - Andrew Flood
    
    I get you point about anonymous comments but as far as I can tell the people they are com paining about mostly use their own names or have identities that are widely known. It’s not the issue in the debate around intersectionality
    - mikewaller
      
      One of the controls (although I have no idea how effective) on high-flown nonsense or below the belt crap from either sex was “Pseud’s Corner” in Private Eye and for radical women, the same journal’s “Wimmin”[Sp?] section. If they no longer exist, something similar on a bigger scale seems to me highly desirable. Nonsense that can be endlessly sustained in small, self-regarding and tightly controlled groups usually withers when exposed to a wider audience.
      - Andrew Flood
        
        Sometimes that happens and sometimes instead people realise that these startling new things are actually quite useful, they spread and their use becomes normalised. Then in 30 years time people look back and are amazed at quite how those of a generation ago could have held such shockingly reactionary positions. My suspicion with regard to inersectionality is that what happens will be a lot closer to that second route.
        
        TBH I think Burchill’s shocking transphobic ending to this attack piece already reads like that to many of us. It’s a bit like looking at one of those 1960s era of white crowds in the US picketing schools because they opposed desegregation – you simply wonder how is it possible that people not only held those views but so obviously felt comfortable expressing them.
      - mikewaller
        
        I am a former stammerer who was very sensitive to jokes about stammering, and can extrapolate from that. Nonetheless, I still sense that we have very different priorities. You seem to yearn for a world in which everybody is sensitive to everything; whereas I fear a world where freedom of expression becomes so curtailed that it will require computerised sensitivity checking systems through which virtually every utterance will have to be put before being released into the public domain.
        
        However, if that it does come to that I would certainly favour the use of brain scans to identify accurately the true motivation of the guys crying “Foul”. [:-)] For example, I would strongly suspect that at least some of those going for Burchill are driven mostly by the sheer joy of bringing a big beast down.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Precisely – we are never going to know, in most cases, what someone will object to. And we should focus on the content of speech, not its style. Often, picking up on words is a diversionary tactic : ‘He said Arab when he should have said Palestinian! Now I don’t have to address his point about the Israeli elections!’
      - Dana
        
        What amazes me is that the more time people spend in college the more illiterate they are about biology and despite their proximity to women’s studies courses seem not to understand the meaning of gender at all. Nowadays we’re to think that gender is the biological wiring and sex is a social construct which is exactly backwards. And by the by you can’t change your sex by getting surgery and drugs, it’s encoded into your very DNA, so yes, these ARE dudes in dresses. (And women in dude clothes, while we’re at it.)
      - marti386
        
        “What amazes me is that the more time people spend in college the more
        illiterate they are about biology and despite their proximity to women’s
        studies courses seem not to understand the meaning of gender at all.”
        
        LOL. What amazes ME is TERFs who display nothing more than a junior-high school level of biology, like to dis others for their supposed “illiteracy”. Honestly, you can’t get much funnier.
        
        Try talking to a biology expert. Biology is much more complex than you give it credit for. 😉
  - Dana
    
    Why do you care whether someone writes under a pseudonym? If the social media outlets would be more proactive about banning trolls, it wouldn’t matter. Or, here’s a shocking idea, just ignore them.
    - mikewaller
      
      One minute you are boasting about your biological knowledge and the next showing a complete mental blank when it comes to our evolved sensitivities to criticism or outright verbal cruelty. As to pseudonyms, they are fine by me just so long as they are not snug little dugouts from which creeps can safely discharge deeply hurtful abuse of the crudest kind.
- Jeffrey Vernon
  
  It’s actually not such a long string; in 1700 words, I think she mentions gender benders, chicks with dicks, and cross dressers. That’s all it took to set off a crowd of commentators determined to have hurt feelings. The grand old Left might be a tower-of-babel story, but a useful one; as we see illustrated here, the original point at issue – whether trans people and their supporters have a right to a veto – has been lost in the squabbling.
- msmischief
  
  They were the ones who decided to have the fight. Never bring a knife to a gun fight — but if you do, you have no one but yourself to blame.
GUBU

Intersectionality? Cis-gendered? White-ableist-feminist-specific issues? Transexual feminists? I really must get out more.

On second thoughts….
- Tessla
  
  Yeah…. The list of terms keeps growing and I just grow more bored trying to learn them all.
AreYouKiddingMeKid

FFS, can we please get this squeaky-voiced bloater out of The Spectator?
Judi Sutherland

Started reasonably well, working class credentials, pointing out that feminism has become so introspective it achieves almost nothing, then degenerated into a vulgar, trans-exclusionary rant. 2/10.
- Zoe_Brain
  
  Good summary.
  - Bram
    
    Agreed: good summary.
Simon Saunders

There’s problematic personalities in the intersectional milieu who misuse the background theory to silence less strident and confident opponents, for sure, and such people do often come at it from middle class backgrounds (by no means all).

However in the case you’re so desperately trying to make out as one of you supporting a fellow working-class lass Ms Burchill (as though either of you are short of a few bob these days), you haven’t a leg to stand on. You’re both strong personalities with big platforms, and you attempted to bully critics into submission by launching a dull witted, extraordinarily bigoted rant. You got your richly-deserved comeuppance as a result.

This piece is revealing in that it shows, coming several months down the line, an inability to admit fault coupled with a spiteful reluctance to drop a vendetta. It reflects poorly on you both in those terms, and in the way you’ve chosen to focus almost solely on how intersectional theory is sometimes misused to bolster your rather pathetic self-justifications at the expense of a genuinely interesting debate.
- Flaming Fairy
  
  a spiteful reluctance to drop a vendetta
  
  A bit like those trans activists who still hound Julie Bindel for something she wrote ten years ago and for which she apologised, do you mean?
  - stupocalypse
    
    I know you are but what am I.
    - Flaming Fairy
      
      Just pointing out hypocrisy.
      - stupocalypse
        
        Hmmm.
  - Simon Saunders
    
    I’m terribly sorry, I didn’t realise this was actually about something entirely unrelated to what she’d just written. Oh wait, it isn’t. That’s you attempting to lever in your personal hobby horses. Which is mildly ironic, really.
    - Flaming Fairy
      
      *yawn*
      
      Boring person is boring
    - sarah_13
      
      Having read your comment and Flaming Fairy’s response and listened to Ms Burchill i believe they (Burchill and Fairy) are simply exasperated with the insanity of the present position of the likes of Ms Lees and many on the left. It is enough to make one want to rant, after all if anyone dare state a differing opinion they are bullied into submission. What else is left?!
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        the entire UK has about 2000 transsexual people, we’re a TINY percentage of the population. Tell me how can one be a bully when outnumbered tens of thousands to one? we can’t we can only defend ourselves from those who abuse their positions of power to attack us.
      - sarah_13
        
        Thank you for your comment. Everyone transexual or not is properly entitled to defend their position and equally anyone can be a bully. There are probably less bullies in the world than there are non-bullies but they still make themselves heard disproportionately to their numbers so I’m not sure the numbers is particularly relevant. I believe you are absolutely entitlement to the same dignity as anyone else but I don’t believe you have the right to a privileged position no more than men should be treated with more dignity than women, we are all entitled to same dignity as human beings.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        nobody is ASKING for special privileges, we ask not to be called slurs people tell us to shut up, we ask to be able to take a leak without risking assault rape or murder we get told “but that would make people uncomfortable” we ask for fair protection under ENDA special dels get made which approve ENDA only if we are excluded. That isn’t special privileges that’s just what it would take for society to even START treating us with respect.
      - sarah_13
        
        Agreed, no one should ever be subjected to physical violence. But no one is entitled to stop people writing or speaking in a way they don’t like or don’t understand. Free speech and thought are essential.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        nobody is stopping her churning out what she usually calls journalism, however freedom of speech does not == freedom to evade the consequences of what you say, nor does it entitle you to an interational platform to air it from. If a persons opinions are hateful hen they attract anger as a response, burchill doesn’t get censored yet those replying to her stuff do. Ergo she is in a position of privilege and power which she abuses as a platform to target people from.
      - Jayne Wattie
        
        Another thought might be why should non trans women refer to themselves as cis because trans women deem it exclusionary along with referring to our bodily functions as female? If you are such a minority why must you force your idea of equality on biological women? I reject CIS and I always will. Privilege indicates special rights and advantages which NO WOMEN possess under the patriarchy. If you identify as a woman good for you, go live your life unaccosted and peacefully but do not dictate what biological women call themselves and certainly don’t start trying to dictate to us when, where and how we can talk about our own fucking bodies!
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        I would if the entire of society as a whole didn’t treat me as somehow lesser the second they find out anyway. I refuse to “go stealth” because somebody has to bee there to help others through. If you cannot bsee that there is a need for a support network for the next generation then you seriously need to think. There are differences, acknowledging them is not a problem unless you use them to treat another as lesser.
      - Jayne Wattie
        
        Thanks to handmaidening everyone, including other women, has treated me as lesser too. Another point, If women, including feminists, are conditioned from birth to further exascerbate misogyny and pander to patriarchy though unconscious handmaiden behaviour then of course trans boys, benefit and are themselves conditioned by male privilege, no matter the inner turmoil, your everyday life is privileged. Maybe even to the extent that even after you have transitioned you still somehow, subconsciously, feel superior to biological women and therefore have absolutely no qualms about dictating to them when, why and how they refer to themselves. Considering the work we feminists were doing 20 years ago to further the cause of transgender people and how we fought for inclusion and medical rights the recent savage abuse we have suffered from the trans community really feels like a huge smack in the face and once again we biological women are the mugs. Taken for a ride yet again by (former) men. I also haven’t heard much from the FTM community with regards to when they will be campaigning for men to stop referring to themselves or their dicks as masculine! Now, for all the rage I feel about this subject and the abuse my sisters ,inc those trans sisters who have also been shouted down and abused in the shitstorm whenever they try to somehow stop the insanity, I still believe with all my heart that every person, no matter what gender or sex, deserves to live a safe, healthy, peaceful existence at ease in their own skin and accepted and respected by society EQUALLY. Under the patriarchy that will not happen. THAT is our common enemy, one which we have all unconsciously enabled in the past, but in recognising this can we not now stop bickering, join forces and fight it together? You are my sister and we owe it to ourselves to fight for ALL of our many and varied and differing rights but to do that we have to recognise the true enemy of womanhood and it definitely isn’t one another.
      - Jayne Wattie
        
        Someone said to me the other day “Consider for a moment why society as a whole is so accepting and welcoming the current trans activism with open arms?” “Because it is subjugating biological women by the back door.” Anything that doesn’t further the patriarchy wouldn’t be allowed for one moment. It is merely another weapon in the war against women and trans women are self flagellating by pandering to it, maybe even making themselves more victimised in the long run.” It’s definitely food for thought.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        this is sad. What part of we are being murdered sounds welcoming? My jaw is currently held together by pins because I transitioned and some dude decided to “fix it”. I’ve survived repeated physical and sexual assaults more of em than years in my life. Yet I’m still alive and STILL helping people. Just because some of us survive does not make something “allowed” . But it’s obvious you have zero interest in a dialogue, seriously debating with haters is like yelling back at a scratched record. Seems this groove is stuck in the 1970’s first and second wave segregationalist nonsense.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        Translation:shut up about your problems trans people, I will misgender you bnow just to prove my superiority then splain some.
      - Jayne Wattie
        
        Translation; Fuck your sisterhood! I enjoy my very much MALE superiority. You can chop the dick off and stick on some plastic tits but the attitude and hatred of the patriarchy remains intact. Welcome to oppression bitch!
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        Sisterhood isn’t started by treating a sister like crap based on assumptions and theories. So you don’t get to discriminate? That’s a GOOD thing. Thanks to the patriarchy I’ve buried brothers and sisters, too many of them. We have a single monument and people have attempted to destroy it 2 times in 2 years. I back my sisters trans or otherwise, I demonstrate to help when shelters are closing even though they don’t allow my kind. I spend my nights volunteering as a suicide prevention specialist. Hardly ignoring my sisters is it. 6/8 hours per night UNPAID. As for plastic tits, this shows how clueless you really are. Not an ounce of plastic in my body, all flesh and blood including the tits. As you would know if you had the first clue or ever bothered to research transsexuality rather than simply attacking. As for chopping bits off thank you for demonstrating the level of understanding an 8 year old reaches. If you knew anything at all about reconstructive surgery (you clearly either don’t or you were being deliberately malicious) then you would know that in fact one thing started off as the other in utero and careful reconstruction returns one to a close approximation of its state at that point in time. Yes we’re missing a bit of development but do you consider women who aren’t born with a uterus not to be women as well? Or do you decide entirely based on upbringing? Because if so you clearly never read what happened to David Reimer. That or chose to ignore the resultant suicide from the crackpot theories of that quack money and his “proof” that gender is malleable.
      - TrueScot66
        
        Then another pity post,,,, So predictable now Aura uugghhh!!!! All i can say is , thank christ not all transsexuals are like you. Maybe i should point this thread out to some true christian friends 😀 😉 Now that would sort you right out hahaha!!!!
      - TrueScot66
        
        You seriously just do not know when to shut up do you?? and it must be the male in you. I am not trying to be funny here btw but you do keep trouble going and even make it worse as you go along. Step back and take a good look at the bigger picture here ok Only then you will see some truth. You must lead a sad life thats for sure hmmm!!!!
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        says the person slinging abuse without even the guts to stand by their name.
      - TrueScot66
        
        What do you mean now?? You that is using your real name lolll But hey if you want to get personal then i have no problem giving you my real name and address btw 😉
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        you make it sound like I want anything but you to stop following me around between discussions like some overly attached puppy
      - Dana
        
        You take everything as an attack. People stating basic biological facts, you take that as an attack. Women talking about menstruation, you take that as an attack. Lesbians explaining that they are homoSEXUAL and not homoGENDERAL, you take as transphobic. You really need to get out more. P.S., the actual threat to you is homophobic “cis”gendered straight men, get it right.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        Sorry but it aint cis men trying to make it illegal for me to take a piss
      - marti386
        
        LOL. Idiots who say “homoSEXUALZ, not homoGENDERALZ”, with a straight face always crack me up. Been hanging at Justin Norwood’s site too long, have we?
        
        Seriously, you need a new slogan, cuz that’s the stupidest sounding one ever.
      - TrueScot66
        
        Go Dana. Wee Aura there has the weight of the world on her shoulders and she intends on putting us all to rights. If you ask me she needs a wee visit to a doc 😉 very confused and only gets better the more you try to explain fact. Attention seeker if ever there was 1 O.o
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        nicew ableism there, seems you’ve had a lot of practice at it.
      - TrueScot66
        
        Eh Aura is that aimed at me?
      - TrueScot66
        
        Aawww i see it is. But your use of the word “ableism” is a bitty out of place is it not? Or are you accusing me of going about the internet abusing/attacking people who are disabled or of a minority group?
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        you’re slinging insults at an autistic with seizure conditions through multiple different articles on several platforms, so it would seem you do.
      - TrueScot66
        
        WHERE???
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        here, 2 different articles on the daily telegraph, I didn’t stalk you on 4 year old debates.
      - TrueScot66
        
        So you are talking about yourself having these conditions yes or no??? I don’t look at the timelines i just checked out where you attacked and were aggressive with others 😉
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        so I get upset at fracking which is proposed to take place directly down the road from me when people do not do their research and you decide that after getting 8 or 10 abusive messages in a row I shouldn’t have an opinion, you misgender me here and then follow me through a bunch of discussions tone policing , you know if a guy did that it’d be considered stalking right? Also yes I am Autistic and have been hospitalised for other health problems, it has left me housebound for a time dealing with a tonne of abuse for daring to have an anti fossil fuel perspective after over a decade of earth first campaigning. Also for being trans on a burchill article , such a heinous crime.
      - TrueScot66
        
        OMG don’t try to play it down now btw. Its entirely nothing to do with Fracking, most of it was where everybody was politically incorrect as to what “title” you carry. I knew you would say i was wrong as well and you have because you are sooo predictable lmao… Misgender poor lill old me pull your big girl pants up and get on with LIFE. Stop fixating on “words” that mean jack shit to the majority. I have always believed in live and let live but see people like you they screw everything up. You “think” the world owes you but it doesnt, deal with it you are nothing special nowadays. Transsexuals or Transgenders etc etcccc are 10 a penny now. As for Burchill i have not a scooby wtf that is or who they are and ya know what? i could care less. I am in chronic pain from head to toe 24/7 even though i am on the maximum doses of modern pain management. I have been practically housebound for the past 10yrs and will be the rest of my life. But the difference between you and me is, i get on with it and don’t blame the whole bloody world for my debilitating conditions. I suggest you try it sometime O.o but be careful coz there are stalkers in real life uugghhh!!!! omgggs teeth hahaha!!!!
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        it was the discussion you started this junk on, did you actually read the ARTICLE, that little bit of text before the bit you type abuse in you know? The article you are currently talking in?
      - TrueScot66
        
        I canny be fecked with you now, i would be better off banging my head off a wall. Don’t even try to take me on about Fracking because you seriously would fail miserably. You must make up your own meanings for words as well because you so obviously see ABUSE as something totally different to EVERYBODY ELSE. Naw, wait actually you abuse everybody you come in contact with but to you your just replying. HOWEVER if somebody REPLIES to you its ABUSE. Go get your meds reviewed asap. You rattled off about physical disabilities but am positive you have a few mental issues. See if you say ONCE more that i am to blame for YOUR ABUSE i swear your time will be up. BTW re the Fracking comment from you, this is NOT the Fracking post ya nut, see you don’t even know where you are abusing people anymore coz you jump about the pages so much and dont dare miss a scream at somebody….This is where you are 😉 LLF https://spectator.com.au/features/9141292/dont-you-dare-tell-me-to-check-my-privilege/
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        yeah 1 in 320 last count, you really enjoy slanging me though so go right ahead if it makes ya feel better, personally I find it tedious and boring, but things are quiet at the minute and I’m waiting on ink drying. As for pain newsflash you aint the only one hurting, and I sympathise for your pain, doesn’t mean I have to like having a bundle of comments appear most of which are insulting to me and some on completely unrelated subjects with no commonality save my presence as I slept.Yes I commented a lot on this article while I was recovering from major surgery and wasn’t allowed to move. At that time it was a very active topic, now it’s been dead for god knows how long.
      - TrueScot66
        
        Aaahhh housebound for a period hmmm!!! not totally though and not for the rest of your life and i am probably younger than you -_- But see how you play with other peoples words to SUIT YOURSELF that is a problem. You are unable to accept other peoples opinions, you have proved that time and again because YOU ARGUE with everyone. OMG gimme strength are you gonna rant now because i don’t sleep the same hours as you??? YOU NEED A DOCTOR/PROFESSIONAL asap byeeee ya nut
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        yet again mental health based comments, oh well you just confirmed that you aint even worth the time so do me a favour and stop replying before I die of boredom, and I’d be suprised if you were older than me, I’m only 30.
      - TrueScot66
        
        BTW this was a post from last year so where is the 4yr old?? i only saw recent posts of abuse from you and antagonising me so what n where?? Plus are you telling me you suffer from those conditions yet can sit online all day every day attacking ANYTHING anybody says?? Please bare in mind it states on your profile where all you yap O.o
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        last year? Feels longer ago than that. Also I aint sitting online just replying to this stuff, as I already said I do voluntary stuff online, I just reply in lulls. Can’t leave mid shift and leave things unstaffed, that’d be irresponsible. Oh and thanks for the tip in order to prevent future people stalking my comments I’m setting my conversations to private.
      - TrueScot66
        
        You are so up yourself you have lost all sight of reality. Stalk you??? It was YOU that stalked ME if that is how you want to look at it. I am sick stating i ONLY came in here to see what rubbish you were throwing my way. Plus folk only need to scroll down the posts and see your ABUSE to others and causing arguments all over the place. Voluntary “”stuff”” you mean ATTACK PEOPLE who have a difference in opinion to you or are not stuck in political correctness mmm??? Tell me this then,,,, Who do you work for or represent online?? i am seriously interested btw
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        actually no, asking people on the telegraph to do research on a topic that they really haven’t isn’t abuse, I called ableism because to be frank you implied mental illness with the way you spoke about me.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        for the record I reply when people comment on discussions I’ve been in for awhile, I logged in this morning to 6 or 7 comments from you . I suppose that’s the big flaw of disqus.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        as far as commenting goes nobody, as for where I work why would I tell a clear hater where I volunteer? So they can try to get me sacked? Yeeeaaah good luck with that, I really wish disqus had an ignore function right now .
      - TrueScot66
        
        I am your ignore button son and aye i called you son { am Scottish, shoot me } I think you talk a load of bull and i don’t believe a word you say, NOT ONE. Like Judge Judy says…. If something doesn’t make sense then its got to be a lie O.o and nothing you say makes sense then again you could be some auld drunk getting off on arguing with a bunch of women hmmm!!! You wouldn’t be the 1st. Or, a wee Mancunian who needs a guid feed, unless your a vegan who thinks they are an Activist/Anarchist because you sit shouting abuse and accusations at people online all day every bloody day lolll. Well if your scared to mention who your “”supposed”” to work for who are you representing?? You surely can’t have a problem stating that because you are just pushing their point across ya know like a middleman 😛 In fact you know whit, don’t bother replying coz i know your kind 😉 a wannabe thats all you are. I know every time i reply to you i am “feeding” you well now i am gonna starve you. So go and post some more petitions and save the world lmaooo mind and see that doc 😉
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        actually I’m a geordie, there’s a difference, only moved down here last year, also I didn’t call you names, as for who I work for I don’t name folks in the trans community on a forum swarmed by TERFS, also thank you for finally bogging off, Buh Bye now
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        every time I hear a person use the term political correctness I replace it with the words “treating people with decency” 98 percent of the time that’s what they’re against.
      - TrueScot66
        
        I haven’t attacked anybody, anywhere. I just point out FACTS to you…. SO are you now saying you suffer from these conditions??? PLEASE say you do, please 😉
  - Zoe_Brain
    
    “A bit like those trans activists who still hound Julie Bindel for
    something she wrote ten years ago and for which she apologised, do you mean?”
    
    Perhaps if that apology was even a little bit sincere, the writer of this “article” might not have used phrases like a “bunch of dicks in chicks’ clothing and their snivelling suck-ups” and ” a thoroughly monstrous regiment of bellicose transsexuals and their bed-wetting ‘cheerleaders’.
    
    It’s not about the malice of ten years ago; it’s about the continuing malice ever since. What particularly galls her are the “class traitors” who treat trans people like human beings, thus betraying the normal, decent and deeply ignorant working-class bigots like her.
    - Flaming Fairy
      
      Seriously – get over it.
      - Zoe_Brain
        
        Because as a man you assert the right to command women what to do.
        
        I’ll give your command due consideration, of course.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        And this is, of course, how you win hearts and minds. By making silly comments like that and alienating people.
      - Zoe_Brain
        
        You might find this article in the Independent illuminating.
        
        http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/online-trolls-are-psychopaths-and-sadists-psychologists-claim-9134396.html
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Oh I read that – it was very enlightening about the behaviour of some of the trans people on this thread.
      - Zoe_Brain
        
        Well, I tried.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        No, you assumed I was trolling and thought “oh this’ll be a good dig”.
        
        If you read my posts to this thread, you’ll see that’s not the case and that the worst troll – who decided Hitler was right in enslaving and starving gay men and lesbians to death and threatened JBR with a beating – was one of the trans people responding here.
      - Zoe_Brain
        
        Flaming Fairy
        4 days ago
        Stop telling people what to do, please.
        
        Flaming Fairy
        3 days ago
        Just pointing out hypocrisy
        
        Flaming Fairy
        3 days ago
        Please go away and stop bothering me with your incessant whining.
        
        etc
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        *sigh*
        
        THAT is what you think trolling is, is it?
        Not someone telling me Hitler was right about “you lot”?
        
        OK, sense of perspective needed over here STAT
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        A particularly screwed up trans person, but a trans-troll nonetheless, I agree
      - sarah_13
        
        I’m a woman and I’m offended on a daily basis. I get over it, as do most other people including men. None of us has the right to force someone into submission or to not be offended, we can express our opinions, persuade in argument and express in writing what we believe because we live in a liberal democracy. The logic of your and the lefts position is self defeating and ultimately dangerous.
      - Dana
        
        Their B.S. has nothing to do with the Left. They’re centrists at best.
      - marti386
        
        “Their B.S. has nothing to do with the Left. They’re centrists at best.”
        
        Know what’s really funny? TERF clowns who like to claim trans people are right-wingers, when it’s always the TERFs who are caught begging for help from right-wing, social conservatives.
        
        You know. Like when Cathy Brennan (a TERF bigwig) got caught hooking up with the Pacific Justice institute (An anti-woman, anti-gay social conservative group) in order to push the story that trans kids were “assaulting real girls in the school restrooms”? You know, the story they later admitted was a lie?
        
        Or that time I caught Justin Norwood (of “homoSEXUALS, not homoGENDERALS” fame) go crawling to social conservative Stacy McCain’s website, begging for the righties over there to sign his petition to get Fallon Fox (a trans woman) kicked out of the MMA?
        
        Or all the times I’ve caught TERFs linking to articles by anti-gay, anti-woman conservatives (like Keven Williamson for example) just because they wrote an article bashing trans women?
        
        Isn’t there a saying about “you can tell a lot about a person by the quality of the friends they keep”?
        
        Yeah, I think we all know who the real right-wingers are around here.
      - Dael
        
        No, because as one person to another, he/she suggested you get over the idea of punishing people until they make you happy. That’s coercion, and a lot of what people find offensive about the “useless” left, that they don’t find in the regular left is this insistence on coercion, rather than correction. If an imbalance exists – in legislated rights, in actions taken against people to limit them, and so on – correct it. That’s activism. Hounding people to correct their speech is a much less valid activity than it looks to you. And there are much more effective uses of your time and labor, then curating the internet.
      - Dana
        
        You mean the way men in dresses command women to accept them as women and allow them into our bathrooms?
        
        Hypocrite.
      - Zoe_Brain
        
        Any more Ultra-Right talking-points you want to repeat?
    - Aura Willow Hazel
      
      the same bindel who is even today outting trans kids and runs several known hate groups online?
      - Dana
        
        How do you out a trans kid who is bragging about being trans to anyone who reads their Tumblr?
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        quite easily if you target their SCHOOL, Tumblr names aint clear, finding the kids name and contacting their school is deliberate outting and dirty pool.
      - marti386
        
        Becuse the “people who read their Tumblr” are a small group indeed, compared to the bunch who they are outed too thanks to Bindel. Also, that’s their call to make, NOT Bindel’s. Also we’re talking about children being outed by an ADULT. Stay classy, TERFs.
        
        When someone like Bindel outs you, it’s for a specific purpose. Namely, harassment. Let’s be honest. There’s no other reason.
        
        But it IS an example how women like you are willing to look the other way, as long as the victims of this are trans women.
    - Dana
      
      Anybody with any sense wants to treat trans people like human beings. The trouble is that trans people want us to treat them like they’re something they’re not. Wearing a dress, liking makeup, and preferring girly toys doesn’t make you female. Wearing pants (we should have figured this one out by now), hating makeup, and preferring boy toys doesn’t make you a dude. Neither does getting surgery, neither does taking drugs. A real liberation theory would say that a man can go around in a dress and boob implants and makeup and still be a man. That’s not what you’re saying. You’re demanding that we keep people in gender boxes and just allow them to hop back and forth between. Second-wave feminism called for destroying those boxes and all you can do is shit on it. If that’s what you call feminist I’ll stick to my definition, thanks. And I still don’t want dudes in dresses in my bathrooms.
      - Zoe_Brain
        
        “Anybody with any sense wants to treat trans people like human beings.”
        
        Saying that Julie “hasn’t any sense” may be accurate, but doesn’t further the discussion.
      - marti386
        
        “Anybody with any sense wants to treat trans people like human beings”
        
        Yeah, sure. Bindel did an AMAZING job showing the world how much she want’s to treat trans people like human beings, what with reducing us to “dicks in chick’s clothing”. I mean, that’s not dehumanizing at ALL, is it?
        
        “Wearing a dress, liking makeup, and preferring girly toys doesn’t make you female”
        
        No, it doesn’t. it also shows you TERF clowns don’t have a clue about trans people. You know, I might take your kind more seriously if you actually tried LEARNING a few things about us. You guys show off your amazing ignorance every time you open your mouth. Just to point it out, tons of trans women are gender non-conforming, just like cis women. In fact, I rarely wear dresses or makeup. That isn’t what makes me a woman.
        
        “Neither does getting surgery, neither does taking drugs”
        
        Please stop inserting your ignorant opinions on transitional care into the conversation. It’s none of your business. Medical professionals have already explained why it’s necessary, and your opinion on it holds as much weight as Jim Bob Dugger’s opinions on evolution.
        
        “Second-wave feminism called for destroying those boxes and all you can do is shit on it”
        
        Here’s the thing, sweetie. my being a woman ISN’T hinged on me having to subscribe to your lame second-wave feminist theories about gender. Plenty of women think your theories are nuts. Many women aren’t even feminists at all. Many women are against abortion, and women’s rights. And while I disagree mightily with them on those issues, it doesn’t make them any less of a woman.
        
        Just like me.
        
        So stop acting like I have to follow your code in order to be a woman. Cuz I so don’t.
        
        It’s a shame you clowns can’t seem to understand that gender presentation is NOT the same thing as gender ROLES. At all. And one doesn’t necessarily defeat the other. Wearing dresses or lipstick on occasion doesn’t make me a bad feminist.
        
        By the way, what have you done to “abolish” those gender stereotypes? I mean, from your little icon photo, it looks like you have long hair and lipstick on. Not exactly “non-traditional”, are you?
        
        Just like you, I don’t want “dudes in dresses in my restrooms. I have no problem with trans women in them, however.
        
        you know, cuz we’re not “dudes”?
  - Sara Robedee-Molino
    
    Yeah, wrong article, this is about Julie Burchill.
    - Jeffrey Vernon
      
      Julie Burchill’s article was about over-sensitive reaction and trivialisation of debate. I think that FF’s comment is relevant to this point (whether it’s true is another matter – a trans activist on this page said that Bindel’s apology was inadequate)
    - Flaming Fairy
      
      *yawn*
      
      I was responding to a statement in this post. The post above. That one up there. Do you see?
- sarah_13
  
  It appears that much of what Ms Burchill says is correct, the left seems to have been usurped by narcissistic single issue groups. Ms Lees, for example, I understand, went to prison having committed a serious crime and either in prison or after changed genders. Ms Burchill has a long history of political engagement in many issues, not just issues personal to her or indeed women. I believe that was her point, one that Ms Lees did not seem to grasp.
  - Jeffrey Vernon
    
    …and moreover, this narcissism leads to the politics of offense. ‘She’s getting at me! Outrageous! I’m going to object to the style, not the content, of these words!’ Suzanne Moore’s Brazilian remark was not aimed at transsexuals at all – her point about body image got lost entirely in the twitter storm.
    - sarah_13
      
      Precisely. Moore is a writer, just because many do not understand what she is saying, or don’t like it or both does not give them the right to a “hecklers veto”, even if she were deliberately trying to offend. The position of Ms Lees and those on the left is ultimately unsustainable in a liberal society, but it would require some knowledge of liberal values to grasp this I suspect.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Or even enlightenment values, which the left used to champion. I’ve been – shall we say bemused – by the resistance to free speech I’ve come across on this site, from people who are not by any means stupid or apolitical, and who have everything to lose from restrictions on it. And very often it has come down to a claim about personal offense. There can be v. few occasions when this is unbearable (or unavoidable), or worth the price of censorship. Naturally, we want people to observe rules of debate – no ad hominem ,sticking to the topic and so on – but flying off the handle when you’re provoked only dilutes your own voice (to mix metaphors)
      - sarah_13
        
        I’m not as confident as you are that those who claim offence are as bright as you think. It doesn’t take much thought to realise that “one mans orthodoxy is another mans blasphemy”. It strikes me that the likes of Julie Burchill, Suzanne Moore and Rod Liddle, Nick Cohen etc are precisely the intelligent “lefties” who can see the logical conclusion to this type of self-absorption, not just in this debate but in others. It seems that many who purport, now, to represent the left have been elevated beyond the status their intellect would naturally merit. The reasons for this are no doubt varied and “righteous” but the consequences I doubt will be positive. One consequence appears to be a disparity of integrity, principle and intellect, such that debate is virtually impossible; one side simply has not the capacity to engage with the other.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        It’s sometimes couched as an argument about access; unless you hear my outrage, you won’t take account of me, or understand the reasons I’m an outsider. But wouldn’t you rather hear my reasons than feel my pain? It is true that voices get marginalised, or struggle to be heard, but indignation is a poor weapon.
      - sarah_13
        
        Indeed, but poor weapon or not indignation succeeds in stifling debate, so in as much as It appears to be the intention it succeeds. Good for those who don’t care for the truth but not for those of us who can’t truly live without it.
Elizabeth Veldon

wow, yet another bitter, racist, homophobic, trans*phobic piece by burchill.

here’s another reading of intersectionality- ‘don’t be an arse, consider other people’s feelings and when someone says your wrong listen rather than react with anger.’

hardly a hard thing is it? but then burchill can’t accept her piece in the guardian was wrong on so many levels just as she can’t accept that moore (who called me a ‘reactionary’ for asking her to treat people with respect rather than scorn) was wrong.

the Cul-de-sac of privileged second wave feminism kicking in it’s death throws.
- Flaming Fairy
  
  racist, homophobic, trans*phobic piece
  
  Oh come on, you’re not even trying – surely you could dredge up a few more isms and phobias to label this with?
  - Terri Tg
    
    no need to feed the trolls like “Flaming Fairy” here, please move along
    - Flaming Fairy
      
      Stop telling people what to do, please.
      - Terri Tg
        
        sorry if the truth hurts, but with such a pc and screen name you are obviously just that
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        I’m a gay man you prick. I’ll call myself what I like. Got that? Good.
- Dan
  
  Then why would you need the word “intersectionality”? For what you’ve described, the word “consideration” would do. It seems to me that Julie Burchill, whether you yourself find her considerate or not, does makes the point that her friend did not receive much at all. (Response to the phrase out of proportion or what?) In short – intersectionality is not what you are defining it as, and very often, its propogation, in practice, doesn’t show much consideration of others.
  
  And some the anti- comments I’ve read up to now, they seem to either take exception to some of Julie’s more vituperative statements, or attack her for things she’s said in other places (and sure I don’t agree with many things she’s said). But both of these approaches have the fault of missing some of the very valid points she might have made.
  - Jeffrey Vernon
    
    Quite. Intersectionality adds no useful concept to the language (though it might provide work for departments of postmodern studies). And JB’s points about degeneration of debate, and using hurt feelings as a weapon, are only illustrated by some of the exchanges on this page.
ReefKnot

Women, eh ?
NatachaNatacha

Why does Julie Burchill shout over Paris Lees all the time. She sounds just like a Tory politician, trying to prevent others from getting their point over. And hanging up was just childish.
- Elizabeth Veldon
  
  she IS childish – childish, vile, vulgar and reactionary.
  
  the press (particularly the liberal press but also the telegraph) reward her for this behaviour so she has no need to change.
  - global city
    
    Why are so many of the comments slagging of Burchill so full of cliches and hackneyed insults?
    - Flaming Fairy
      
      It’s basically a gang attack, they’re tapping these things out from a script
      - Terri Tg
        
        so says the troll lol
        
        maybe because they are RIGHT? love how you that support her can bother to use a real name, or even part of a name “global city, flaming fairy” at least global city is not intentionally offensive to anyone. please cite which cliches and hackneyed insults you are refering too specifically?
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Argumentum ad usernameum – the mark of a cretin
  - akindependent
    
    She’s our Ann Coulter?
    - Elizabeth Veldon
      
      is there really room for two ann coulters?
      - Peter from Oz
        
        There is room for thousands of Ann Coulters and no room for narcissitic wanky offence takers who can only identify themselves as group members and not individuals.
        
        Sinistra delenda est!
- Flaming Fairy
  
  They were shouting over each other. Lees was just as ill-mannered.
  - Terri Tg
    
    except, if i read correctly they were supposed to be one speaking at a time, and Lees had the “floor”. so only ONE was being ill-mannered and rude. and it wasnt Lees
- global city
  
  All the vilest big mouths that I have ever had the unpleasant experience of meeting have been lefties… terrible people!
  - Aura Willow Hazel
    
    calling Burchill a leftie is like calling osbourne a decent mathematician , a complete and highly amusing fiction. She’s admitted several times herself she agrees far more often with the far right, supports aparthied of the palestinian people and the stealth annexing of the gaza strip settlements. If she’s far left so was thatcher :p
Kai Weston

Really? you’re still spewing out ill informed crap about trans people? It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic. Frankly, I find you boring.
- Rob Harries
  
  but not boring enough to not click, read and comment?
  
  Well unless you are a regular spectator reader?
Tamlyn Ailsa MacPherson

Because we trans people never have to deal with HRT or get hassled for sex by
randy men, or have anything unpleasant in our lives whatsoever… Now I
know we have it sooooo easy compared to you Julie, please accept my humblest
apologies for not suffering enough in your eyes to earn my gender
identity.
- global city
  
  That’s rather sexist isn’t it?
  - Tamlyn Ailsa MacPherson
    
    How?
La Fold

Calm down dears.
Aura Willow Hazel

OK miss Burchill, if we trans folks have it so easy can you explain to me why 41 percent of us are dead by age 20? Here’s a hint being trans is not cushy, you get attacked, threatened, see friends killed, and still have to contend while dealing with that with a medical condition that causes suicidal depression. Of all LGBT individuals trans are at highest risk of homelessness, workplace discrimination, assault, and murder. There aren’t a liot of us only a few thousand in the entire country. If we get divorced our spouse can stilol even AFTER divorce veto our medical care alongside a few of our other hman rights. Yes we are SO FREAKING LUCKY TO BE BORN TRANS. Oh and as an added bonus we get articles by windbags who decide our humanity isn’t worth inconveniencing themselves by respecting. Both you and your ilk, and conservative lobbies who don’t like anything they can’t understand. Oh and for the record when you spout your working class credentials you forget some of us still live in the villages that were left once the pits were gone. Some of us STILL aren’t rich, unlike yourself yet somehow we manage.
- Flaming Fairy
  
  Where do you get your stats from? Everything I’ve seen shows 41% of trans people attempting suicide, not dying.
  - Lindsey Weedston
    
    Last time I checked, attempted suicide rates of that magnitude were still phenomenally awful.
    - Flaming Fairy
      
      Of course they are but there’s no need to misrepresent them.
      - Terri Tg
        
        except if it serves your purpose right FF
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Eh? You’re not even making any sense, duckie. Please go away and learn how to read and comprehend.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        Flaming Fairy, that’s the sad thing I DON’T NEED TO MISREPRESENT THEM. I know from firsthand experience talking people outta suicide every single night as a volunteer suicide prevention specialist that if anything the stats are understated.
      - Praxilites
        
        And yet you felt the need to ramp up the pathos to make your point. Most people would be sympathetic to the high rates of suicide among trans people. It is this tendency to ramp up the rhetoric to slap down dissent that makes people cynical about the postmodern left. Its a form of bullying.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        actually I was factoring in other issues that hit the trans community harder, drugs, alcohol, dangerous careers including sex work out of desperation. Factor in those and you’ll find the 41 percent I cited is probably a bit on the light side of the reality.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        says the guy who just came on to criticise
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        actually no I just factored in for people still in the closet, alcohol and drug related deaths, murders, and all the other delightful things the suicide figure excludes.
  - Terri Tg
    
    one. “Flaming Fairy” is just a troll, so ignore this person.
    
    two. it looks like a misstatement, yes it is 41% (which IS appalling Lindsey) ATTEMPTED suicides, which is many times the national average, depending on what statistic you are comparing it to (teenagers, adults, gay, etc and which study) as one of those “statistics” i KNOW what its like to feel this way, and i am NO teenager, but a 44 year old adult. we are more likely to be sexually abused, raped, etc than any other “group” of people, etc. gee i have NO idea why such a “privileged” group of persons, as Ms Burchill and her cohorts claim us to be, would have that statistic do you? this is just typical TERF junk claims.
    - Flaming Fairy
      
      Ah look at you, telling other people what to do again.
      - Terri Tg
        
        just letting people know what they are dealing with, so they can make up their own minds. i am not forcing anyone, just recommending
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Please go away and stop bothering me with your incessant whining.
    - Peter from Oz
      
      This hardship is very truw, but tans people and their friends do not make things better for trans people by getting offended so easily and trying to shut people up. In fact I would say, they do the oppositie. By getting offended and trying to censor others trans people make things worse for themselves.
      
      The best way to overcome discrimination is to face it and talk your way out of it by kind words, not by bigotry of your own. SUch idiocy as talking about ‘intersectionality’ will just alienante people.
      
      BTW you also have to stop committing the zero sum fallacy, ie being in thrall to the idea that all your problems are the result of someone else’s privilege.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        people get touchy when given death threats on a daily basis, try scrubbing slurs off your walls some time and see if you get a lil bit touchy about journalists (and in this case I use the term in the loosest possible sense) using their positions of power to criticise and attack your community.
  - Aura Willow Hazel
    
    you fail to factor in murder, also attempts are not recorded until they have been repeated or succeeded.
  - Aura Willow Hazel
    
    also you fail to factor in victims still in the closet , I do my best to factor them in based on the number of closeted individuals I and others deal with on a nightly basis. Those stats you cite? where do you think the data was gathered to begin with?
    - Flaming Fairy
      
      So are 41% of trans people dead before the age of 20 or not? And if so, please give the reference for the statistical analysis which brought this to light. Because at the moment, it seems like it’s a figure plucked out of your head.
- Alexandrovich
  
  Aura Willow Hazel? You just won’t help yourselves, will you…
  - Aura Willow Hazel
    
    Alexandrovich I’m too busy giving up every moment I have spare to help others get through the crap that people throw our way. I don’t give a toss about myself, I doi care about my mentor, who was murdered 5 years back for being trans, nobody even told us for long enough after all what’s another dead trans person? I care about the kids who I haveta talk outta destroying themselves every single damn night because the constant harassment has left em thinking there’s no other way. I care about the poor sod nforced into sex work because nobody is hiring transfolks.
- Fergus Pickering
  
  41% dead by the age of twenty. dead from what? Suicide? Disease? Where do you get that figure? I am inclined to disbelieve it.
  - Aura Willow Hazel
    
    look at the stats for alcohol and drug abuse and resultant mortality rates, then look at the prevelance in the community, add in the 41 percent stats (which according to lauras playground one of the only real suicide prevention services we have and where most of the statistics are gathered are now up to 50 percent). Then factor in the fact that those stats increase in under 18 trans folks and don’t forget the stats for trans youth are not collected, and the tendency to choose dangerous career paths such as millitary service and you’ll find that the 41 percent stat is probably insufficient even before you factor in the murder rates.
- Peter from Oz
  
  What have trans people got to do with gay people? I know that some trans people are gay, in that when they change sex they will have a sexual preference for members of the same sex. However, in genreal I have often wondered why transgender people herd with the gays and lesbians. Their needs are completely different.
  
  A trans woman who sleeps with men is a heterosexual, not gay.
  - Aura Willow Hazel
    
    first off there are LGB transfolks too, in case that fact eluded you.
  - Aura Willow Hazel
    
    Transsexuals do not “herd” anybody, the LGB and T communities have worked side by side for the simple reason we get a lotta the same stigma and issues. Of late the issue has become contentous on both sides of late however as often folks feel the exclusion of gender identity from ENDA type legislation hurts the trans community . I don’t agree with that but do firmly believe that such legislation would be helpful if not written out every single time. There were trans folks at several major dust ups which helped in the fight to obtain rights for LGB folks, and there are many LGB individuals who also support respect for T folks. So I guess it’s an alliance that does a lotta good.
  - Aura Willow Hazel
    
    I’ll make this simple, you are trans people assume trans == gay. As a result for years the trans community has vehemently opposed homophobia, cause we get as much flak from it. Why does working apart on an issue that effects both make any sense? it doesn’t to anybody but seperatists. We don’t herd anybody BTW we’re a fraction of the population, and newsflash some of us are LGB TOO.
Barbara Barrett

” The idea that a person can chose their gender — in a world where millions of people, especially ‘cis-gendered’ women, are not free to choose who they marry, what they eat or whether or not their genitals are cut off and sewn up with barbed wire when they are still babies — and have their major beautification operations paid for by the National Health Service seems the ultimate privilege, so don’t tell me to check mine” – Correction: Transgender people do not choose their gender (Innate awareness of who and what they are) any more than cisgender people do; they are born that way, as neurological study after study has proven since the 80s. Transgender medical treatment is not “beautification” but the correcting of an intolerable condition; one that is obviously beyond Julie Burchill’s imagination. And therein lies the problem because Privilege, by definition, is refusing to acknowledge the reality of a problem or that it even exists simply because it is not inside your personal experience. You don’t need to check your privilege Ms Burchill because you’ve just waved it under everyone’s noses for all to see
- Ashley Krista
  
  Agreed. One does not choose to be transgender, but they have to choose whether to live as society and Ms Burchill dictate or come out as themselves.
  
  This argument that “other women have it worse, therefore your complaints are invalid” is absurd, as it could be said in response to any western feminist issue.
  - AndrewS
    
    I don’t think that Ms Burchill was saying that other women have it worse she was saying that women have it worse.
  - Fergus Pickering
    
    How do you know nobody chooses to be transgender. This is just a fashionable belief, surely?
    - Neil Saunders
      
      In this politically-correct madhouse we call the modern world there are also a lot of nutters who don’t even know what day of the week it is, let alone who or what they are.
      - Deirdre Hebert
        
        When people say “political correctness” today, it is nothing but a politically correct way to say that they are upset that they are being called out for being uncivil.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        It can mean that. There is, though, a kind of touchiness at large, where people are quick to over-interpret and take offense where none was meant. And even if it was intentional, is it really a good use of energy to launch a twitterstorm?
      - Deirdre Hebert
        
        Is it better to not point out bigotry?
        It’s pretty easy to sit on the sidelines and say that a particular group is just too touchy – too sensitive – which is exactly what was said about women seeking suffrage, blacks seeking to end segregation …
        It tends to be that if you’re not part of a group, it’s really difficult to see what’s really happening. Spend some time seeing exactly how transgender people are treated in the world – you may change your perspective.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Being touchy about words. Segregation was ended by political, civic and legal action – it didn’t come to an end by arguing over words. Trans rights will not advance one iota by objecting to half-a-dozen syllables in a 1700 word article.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        when articles have killed people we’ll object to articles. I know of at least 5 people hounded to death by the media yet tripe like this still gets published. Defense of bigotry is and always wil;l be messed up, I will call it when I see it.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        I read the article quite differently. The author asks for reason to replace emotion in politics, and for less sensitivity about speech codes. Recall, the whole storm blew up when someone objected, I believe mischievously, or at least with a determination to feel offended, to Suzanne Moore’s innocent remarks about body image. In the current article, JB summarises what happened, and repeats the offending words about chicks with dicks – and this is about 10 syllables in a long piece about the language of activism and the politics of personal grievances. I think that every post on this page that insists the article is purely a transphobic rant by a transphobic author merely confirms what Burchill is complaining about.
      - Terri Tg
        
        Jeffrey, touchiness is usually a defense mechanism, not about hate. when you have been insulted, beaten, thrown out of your home, raped, abused, etc. yeah you tend to get just a “little touchy”. if someone did not mean offense, they would apologize as soon as they were shown it was offensive.
        
        TERFS are NOT sorry for what they say. a TERF is responsible for a report that made the US government (which is now under review as being not only wrong, but purposefully inaccurate) that caused and allowed private and public help for Trans persons to be WITHHELD. it claimed that treatment of Trans persons was NOT effective in helping them. it was taken and used without the proper vetting, so obviously someone had an agenda against Transpersons in the government to allow this to happen. this PERSON if you can call her that, is at best indirectly at worst DIRECTLY responsible for many deaths by suicide because help was not available for so many of us for over 30 YEARS based on her “scholarly” paper that cited only several out of hundreds of studies on this, and only the ones who showed HER viewpoint, not a real scientific point of view. so the government changed its stance on treatment for Trans persons as NOT medically necessary, and stopped covering or providing it, even just counseling.
        
        and since the government said it was not “medically necessary” the private insurance companies dropped those coverages as well.
        
        so sorry if we get a “little touchy” about people who mess with our lives, and our medical care just to satisfy their own personal hate.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Janet Raymond has become a hate-figure for trans activists. Her report might have been biased, ignorant, and everything you say. But the decision to withhold funding was made by the US Department of Health. It might well be that the DoH was waiting for an excuse, and relied on her evidence; but it is convenient to blame her because the bureaucrats that made the decision are anonymous. Last year, JR was dis-invited to speak at a Norwegian conference about prostitution, apparently after a pro-trans complaint about her invitation. This kind of ban could easily be extended to anyone with a view that goes against ‘current opinion,’ on any topic whatever. It won’t do to say that her views are dangerous – they have to be defeated in public.
    - Deirdre Hebert
      
      Fergus,
      There ARE people who are unsure. There are people who may be somewhere along the spectrum between male and female. There MAY be a choice as to how one might live their life. There are even those who choose to go back after surgery. (Often this is because of intolerable treatment by others toward those who are less able to “pass”).
      But you don’t “choose to be transgender” anymore than you choose to be cis-gender, or male, or female, or smart, or stupid.
      Your argument points to the same ignorant arguments that suggest that people can change their sexuality – that a gay person can become straight. They don’t. There HAVE been people who have loved those of the same sex, who discover they can love someone of the opposite sex. This doesn’t mean that they WERE gay, and are NOW straight – it means they were bisexual – able to love either – but simply hadn’t the opportunity to do so before. Being bi doesn’t mean that someone has relationships with people of both sexes – it means that they are ABLE to have relationships with people of both sexes.
      We choose how to live – not who we are.
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        Of course people can change their sexuality. You see it all the time. You are postulating some sort of underlying sexuality which never changes. But that is quite unproveable. What we know is that people have sex with men and the same people have sex with women. We observe this happening. You say – ah, they are bisexual. I say everybody is bisexual. And where does that get you? You are in thrall to words.
        
        I have to confess I am quite unclear what transgender means. Does it mean you have two sets of sexual organs, no sets of sexual organs? I suggest you watch the Swedish film ‘Let the Right One In’ and tell me about the boy’s sexuality. But of course the film is not about sex. It is about Love. He doesn’t care whether the girl is a girl or a boy. He loves her.
      - Deirdre Hebert
        
        Fergus – You have an opinion on the topic, and you don’t even know what the words mean?
        I think you’ve said all you need.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        What about Fergus’ other point, on the plasticity of sexual orientation? Do you not think there are any trans-by-choice people?
      - Deirdre Hebert
        
        Read my previous comments. I’ve already answered this question.
      - Terri Tg
        
        no jeffrey, unless they are mentally disturbed for some reason. they do exist, but it is less than 4% of those treated. but they are why we have such a stringent course of treatment before we can get GCS, etc. they are very wary of making mistakes, some people have convinced themselves so much they can convince even two different mental health professionals.
        
        while Gender Dysphoria is still listed in the DSM if you look at the notes from the panel that made this decision, it was done JUST so that private insurance would NOT have a reason to drop treatment of it. now GD can cause issues for people, usually from molesters, rapists, etc which causes its own issues for ANYONE, but depression because there is no one that will help you “fix” yourself, etc.
      - Terri Tg
        
        now i think you are wrong here. if we cant see someone who is trying and try to explain it to them better, then we are no better than the TERF’s and other haters.
      - Deirdre Hebert
        
        The thing is Terri, that I’m not a hater. I’m not saying anyone has, or hasn’t a right to exist, to simply go to the bathroom, to be married, to not get beat up when they walk down a street.
        In the discussion with Fergus, I was talking to someone and trying to explain – to someone who was expressing hard and fast opinions – without even knowing who or what he was talking about.
        I’m sorry if you take it as “hating” when I expressed my frustration.
        If someone, if anyone has questions, that’s fine. I’ll spend all day answering. But when they go off telling me what’s real and what’s not, and then after a lengthy exchange, tell me they don’t even know what the words mean, I don’t have time for that.
      - Terri Tg
        
        Fergus, thank you for asking, most just assume it is ?????? and move on.
        
        Transgender is a general term for anyone that does NOT fit into the “gender binary” male or female. this includes, but is not limited to, Transvestites (men who dress as woman, primarily for sexual purposes generally), cross dressers (men who dress just for the clothing, non sexual generally), Drag Queens (men who dress usually for a job, but some do it on their own, and is usually associated with over blown looks) Gender neutral, gender queer, gender fluid (some of these terms are “defined” differently in different places it is not a well defined structure at this point) and Transsexuals (men or women who know they are not the sex they are born with, and have mental issues because this can cause dysphoria, and from events around them. it is very common for trans persons to be raped, molested, etc because of how we act) Transsexuals can be called trannies, she males (for most of us, those terms are offensive as they were coopted by the porn industry, and while a large number of us, in order to live, survive and make money for our sometimes expensive medical needs, do go into the “sex business” it is not a polite term for most of us so is NOT recommended. some are fine with it) and other sundry names.
        
        Interexed are people who are born with parts of both sexes or are so indistinct as to be undeterminable, an in the past they were operated on to be made one sex or the other, but this also resulted in Gender Dysphoria if they guessed wrong. so most countries are moving to doing little until the child reaches an age to express themselves, from 5 to puberty. you need to make some decisions by puberty to make adjustments if necessary in hormones, since the Gender Confirmation Surgery (used to be known as Sex Reassignment Surgery or Sex Change Operation) is not done until 18 normally, since the body is still growing and some of the tissue after the operation is scar tissue which does not grow.
      - Terri Tg
        
        on your first paragraph, i have to disagree with you. there are Bi-sexuals, but a gay man who has sex with a woman as part of being “in the closet” is not necessarily bisexual. sexuality is NOT just about sex, but attraction. the movie you reference, that boy might be Pan Sexual, or Sapio Sexual (yes it is getting very much defined down to a T) a Bisexual person is genuinely attracted to both sexes, not just that they have sex with both sexs, there is a difference. someone can be MADE to have sex, raped, by a same sex individual, but only is attracted to the opposite sex, that does NOT make them Bisexual, it just means sex happened. and this goes whether it is forced or not. again the gay man acting as society expects all “men” to act, wife, 2 kids, etc. or the trans person doing the same thing, for similar reasons, but a different source. instead of having sex to cover their orientation, they are doing it to hide their real GENDER.
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        The concept of REAL gender is a political position, not an objective fact. Or so I think.I am for choice. You are for a Calvinist world of Fate. Maybe things are as you say they are, but I hope not.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        try living with GID for a coupla weesk then say that, if you lasted the week that is. In fact I challenge you if gender is so mutable live as female for a fortnight and put your money where your mouth is. Otherwise you just show you’re all mouth.
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        Of course I shan’t do what you sugest. I do not wish to you see.
      - Kitty MLB
        
        Thank God you shan’t do that, it would be disturbing and have one in stitches, especially as a couple of pixies who will be nameless, cheekily tweaked someone’ s Image a while ago. It would not work with a female- who could never pass it off –
        ( A bit one gender ish, Aura Willow Hazel dear)
        Suave man about town, Cat- eau- neuf du papa marinated
        Drones clubber( That bit from Mr Viking with the classical looks)
        Jauntily perambulating through the metropolis, trilby placed
        artistically on head ( Flat cap would work)
        When indoors, attired in a velvet smoking jacket and silk cravat, sitting by peat fire drinking single malt whisky.
        Aura Willow Hazel, No one wishes to walk in someone else’s
        shoes, do lighten up and remove the chip from shoulder.
        Also dear, You mentioned Science elsewhere.
        Normally is not an absolute, just trail and error, and we are guinea pigs, its only an absolute as far as gender is concerned. We are female or male, and that is that !!!!!!!!!!
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        kitty , are you perchance kitty berber? if so there’s a good reason I choose not to respond to you usually.
      - Kitty MLB
        
        No I am not, do not have a clue who that is.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        thank god for that, sorry for not replying sooner then I got a load of messages a few months back on my wordpress calling me all sorts of nasty stuff and telling me to die in a fire amongst other charming things. My apologies it made me a lil jumpy after somebody attempted arson on my home a few years ago by means of fireworks.
      - Kitty MLB
        
        How horrendous. I think I shall remain in my sleepy English
        village, the neighbours seem fine thank God.
        Hope you contacted the police.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        That WAS a sleepy English village in the north east, sadly one that is now overrun with phobes. I’ve since moved down to Manchester, get assaulted less often down there.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        I’d have contacted the police but the fact is after being assaulted over 30 times and having naff all done about it but given a crime reference number and a victims hotline so they can tick all the “appropriate actions for a hate crime ” boxes they do nothing. Besides having had police deliberately reveal private info about me in the past they had no right accessing I trust them about as far as I could spit after a month living on dry salted crackers on toast in the sahara desert.
      - Kitty MLB
        
        I know you always forget to reply to little me , if you look
        down a few places, I have a message to you at the bottom
        of Fergus’ post.
        And No, if you were to ask the same question to me, I would not want to live life as a chap ( I am a female, we are all one
        or the other)
        Yet to have been the beautiful Oscar Wilde and doing the Grand Tour- maybe !!
      - Anne
        
        Sex is biology. Gender is the culturally acceptable presentation of sex.
        
        There now, however, seems to be a total confusion of these terms and their meanings, perhaps because transgender people can have their external appearance altered (anatomically and pharmaceutically) to conform to the culturally accepted outward norms of their understood sex beingness. I am not sure how this makes gender ‘real’ in any concrete way, however.
      - Terri Tg
        
        you are correct on Gender to a degree, we base gender on how the child acts most girls act this way, most boys act that way. toys, clothes etc are what is based on societal acceptance, and later attitudes, actions are influenced as well. “boys dont sew” “girls dont play sports” etc
        
        there is plenty of physical evidence, biological, that male and female brains develop differently. and there have been ongoing studies of brain structure of Transsexuals (transgender is an umbrella term, yes the terms are very messy and not well understood, we all seem to have different meanings, i use the ones generally accepted by the medical establishment. transgender included cross dressers, transvestites, drag persons, inter sex and transsexuals, among others, gender fluid, etc) the other members, except inter sexed individuals, are NOT changing their bodies to fit anything, they wear clothes for various reasons, some might get implants, but not many. only transsexuals have the wrong body parts for thier brain, or ID if you will. so yes gender is real, but can be influenced by upbringing, exposure, etc, but has a base point from biology.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        A view frequently expressed by sexologists is that ‘we’re all bisexual.’ I happen to disagree with them, and I guess you do as well, since you believe in the gay gene theory. There are at least some bisexuals in society, however. Could this in your view be ascribed to a bisexual gene?
      - Deirdre Hebert
        
        You’re practicing eisegesis – reading things into what I’m saying that I have never said. I never said “I believe in the gay gene theory”. What I said is that our sexuality isn’t chosen – any more than I can choose to enjoy pain. Whether it’s genetics, epigenetics, prenatal hormone levels – it really dosn’t matter. You’re saying it’s a choice, and all you’ve got for proof is “some gay people you know who say …”, and with this, you believe that you have evidence that all the science is wrong.
        I’m sure that “the gay people you know” would make a great scientific study – with no self-selection bias at all. Please – write it up – I’m anxious to see what journal would publish it.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        With respect, Deirdre, you said more than that! You wrote about the preponderance of evidence/opinion and all the rest of it. I can’t find any of this evidence. Where is mine, you ask? I have made no claims about my scientific evidence, because I don’t think that homosexuality is a biological question. It’s a political and social question. Gays existed before the gay gene theory,and they didn’t wait for science to come up with the idea before pressing their demands.
        
        There are lots of beliefs current among clinicians for which no evidence is to be found – for example, the view that heart disease is caused by dietary factors. So far it has proved impossible to link it to salt, cholesterol, saturated fats, omega-6 fatty acids, and trans fats. While the idea was reasonable 40 years ago, I think that continued insistence on is probably holding back research.
        
        I pride myself on answering what people write, rather than second guessing their motives. You should return the favour – you implied above that I don’t care about anti-trans violence, when nothing I’ve written could have given you that idea. I don’t know the learned greek word for ‘avoiding the point’ is, but my q about bisexual genes was serious; what in your view would be the biological explanation for bisexuality? Would it be a single dose of the gay gene?
      - Deirdre Hebert
        
        Jeffrey, you may have taken what I said as an implication that I thought you didn’t care about anti-trans violence – that wasn’t the case at all. What I suspect is that you have no idea how much there is. Did you hear about the baby who was beat to death because his father thought he was too “girly”? Have you heard about the trans woman who was beheaded? About those who have been shot, beaten, mutilated, burned, dragged behind cars – all over the world?
        
        If you actually pay attention to this, and if you care, then thank you. But to most of the world, transgendered persons, more so transgender women, and even more so – transgender women of color, experience violence far beyond what any other minority experiences. And to the average person – they are invisible – you don’t read about them unless it’s the child of someone important – like Chaz Bono. But to most people, transgender folk are just disgusting things that are almost human.
        
        As to your point of whether there is a bisexual gene – or whatever the cause might be – it doesn’t matter. It’s not my area of investigation. The larger point is whether or not it is – as you suggest without any legitimate evidence to support your position – a choice. You stand, boldly making that claim, when the vast majority of researchers and clinicians hold the opposite position. And then you bring up a couple of contentious issues as some sort of “proof” that you may be right. But here’s the problem with your argument – heart disease does exist – it’s real. the fact that researchers have pointed to different things as the cause is irrelevant to this discussion. Heart disease isn’t a “choice”. There are, too, lots of things we do know – like the fact that diabetes is caused by a defect in the pancreas, and can be treated with insulin.
        
        Here’s another problem though – even if homosexuality isn’t genetic – even if it has an environmental etiology, that doesn’t imply that it is a choice. I doubt that you would like Hakarl – if you’re in Iceland some day, you might want to try it. But I don’t think there is anything that you could do right now to come to a decision that you would like rotted fish and be oh-so-anxious to try it when you got to Iceland and then just enjoy it as much as you would a box of chocolates. I Spent some time in Korea, and try as much as I would, I could never get myself to like kimchee – and I’m a fairly adventuresome eater. Perhaps if I had been born and raised there, things may have been different – but not liking kimchee isn’t a choice – I didn’t choose to not enjoy it – it just is.
        
        But here’s another point – people don’t get killed because they don’t like hakarl or kimchee – it’s not a moral failing for which they can be dehumanized and assaulted.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Perhaps if I knew what you know about the violence, it would change my view about choice. I don’t myself think the two questions are related. Choice is, as you say, too simplistic a term: I certainly don’t mean Persil or Daz. It might be closer to say that my informants ‘cultivated’ their homosexuality; and a good few of them went the kimchee way – they were fascinated by the idea of its deviance.
        
        I am less impressed by expert opinion than you are. Expert opinion is very low on the hierarchy of evidence, as you know. The only clinicians to take a professional view on the origins of homosexuality would be psychiatrists; the two I know – one of them gay – believe that orientation can change. I happen to agree with them, though my view was not influenced by them. I don’t come across the vast body of opinion you have heard (all those psychiatrists!); as far as I know, the most prominent advocate of the born this way idea is Lady Gaga.
        
        Heart disease exists, to be sure – it leaves a trace in the organism. And it must have a cause; but the experts who claim that this cause is dietary must tell us what it is. Similarly, homosexuality has a cause; and so does heterosexuality; but neither has a physiological correlate as far as I’ve heard. So long as the lab data are so rare and inconclusive (and the theory implausible on mechanistic grounds; like a biological propensity to dream vividly) it seems reasonable to suppose that it is largely social.
      - Deirdre Hebert
        
        I don’t mind a reticence to admit that there may be a genetic or physiological cause for homosexuality or transgenderism – you may be convinced or not by whatever evidence is present. And it’s certain that people can choose to be more or less sexually active. But the greater point is this: Nobody deserves to be beaten, jailed, prohibited from seeing their loved one in hospital, or killed, simply for being LGB or T – whether it’s a choice or not.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        ?? Whoever said they did deserve it. I still don’t understand (and I’m not being willfully obtuse) why you link violence and choice. The violence won’t go away even if biological factors for homosexuality and TS are found. Haters will just hate them for having an inherited disability instead. ‘Englightened’ governments will recommend pre-natal testing and early drug treatment.
      - Deirdre Hebert
        
        The reason that violence is linked to choice is because choice is the primary argument against any civil rights protections for LGBT people. The argument goes that if it’s a choice, then these people are not a legitimate minority, and are therefore not deserving of legal protection in any sort of hate crime legislation.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        I’ll take your word for it; I haven’t heard anything so sophisticated from bigots. The usual arguments I come across are sin, family values, think about the children, and ‘it turns my stomach.’ People who are uncomfortable with men doing – you know, THAT – to each other (they don’t think about women) are not going to change their minds if they’re told it’s a disability instead. They’ll just hate sex cripples.
      - Terri Tg
        
        Jeffrey the “gay gene theory” is scientific, there are over 1500 species in nature that also have homosexual. it is “natural” the only political and social question is why we let people who are phobic decide they are NOT natural. fine you dont like it, you are being made to have homosexual sex, or marriage. it is just that they want to be treated equally, not wrong, not evil, not “unnatural”
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        If you mean that there are ‘gay’ fruit flies that sometimes attempt to mount virgin male flies, this is not at all the same as human sexual behaviour. The confused or indiscriminate mating of some species, based on olfactory disturbances at certain seasons of the year, is not like male homosexuality.
        
        The gay gene *theory* is indeed scientific ; it is entirely proper to propose a theory, and a way of testing it. However, all attempts to prove it using genome sequencing in gays and lesbians have failed so far. It remains a theory until someone can show that homosexuality runs in families, and that a gene or group of genes is responsible. This can be difficult to demonstrate even for ‘obvious’ conditions like type 2 diabetes (which is almost certainly a family disease, but around 40 genes have been linked to it, none of them explaining the risk adequately).
        
        The notion that human sexual orientation is fated or natural is very recent; until 20 years ago, sexual liberation movements preferred the idea that anyone could be anything they wanted, and the gay gene was regarded as a sinister eugenic idea. More to the point – a gay trait that depends on perhaps 40 genes would have a very small chance of being transmitted, because gay people are less likely to have children, and even if they did, only half the genes (on average) would be passed on to the next generation.
    - Kitty MLB
      
      Sorry Fergus, could not answer a question
      from you elsewhere because mediator
      will not allow me to do so.
      In simple terms transexuals believe they
      were born into the wrong body , they
      hate their sexual organs, and hope
      for a sex change opp, although
      some sadly try and mulilate themselves,
      not to be confused with cross dressing.
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        Thank you, Kitty. These poor people’s belief is ridicuous of course, which does not mitigate their very real suffering. Howeber, I presume this is fairly rare.
      - Terri Tg
        
        and you have that right for someone who doesnt even know what the terminology means, pretty sure of your opinion.
        
        above you mentioned bran structure. please look further. hormones will not affect the brains development much by the time most of us start taking them, the brain is mostly developed in the womb, and yes does continue until we die, but at a much reduced rate. as i stated above, there was a study that dissected Transsexuals brains in a vast majority of cases, the brain had developed as the sex they said they were, not their “birth/biological” sex. it is NOT about confusion for over 96% of us, using the miniscule amount of persons, out of a tiny minority, is crap science at best. THAT is what homophobes, and transphobes do. if that is your stance, have fun, go hate on your own.
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        Ah, now you are descending to abuse. Who do I hate?
      - Kitty MLB
        
        I thought I’d pop back to this slightly more interesting article.
        We had another the other week regarding a ‘gay gene’ and
        decided there was probably no such thing.
        We must not confuse transgender people with homosexuals
        and link them as you just have, they, I am sure do
        not look at their sexual organs with disgust.
        Being Gay is not a ‘mental issue’. The other clearly is,
        and to make people feel comfortable we create new terminologies and if we do not get the nice new names
        then we are abused.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        And you are ignoring scientific facts in order to dismiss another portion of the human race, you really should try creationism or biblical scholastics with NOM it’d suit you.
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        Ah, I wondered when ‘scientific fact’ would be trundled in.To which scientific fact do you refer?
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        try doing your own research for once, I’m tired of trying to educate fools who refuse to see the facts even if they’re bleedin spoon fed em
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        You’re twittering, lad.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        lass, fergus learn the differences .
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        Good Heavens, so you are. Many apologies. I take it you are the older one in the snap.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        the brunette mr creepy slightly disturbing dude but funnily enough the blonde younger one also identifies as female. I’m kinda disturbed by your behavior on this thread you act like one of the brennans or phelps of this world. Then start asking questions based on a photograph.
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        brennans? phelps? Who they?
      - Livia Rose
        
        That is a post from Miss Brenna & Fred Phelps just past away he was the founder of the westbro baptist church in Kansas (that’s in USA) Look him up. and you agree with those people then you are agreeing with known hate groups!!!! So good luck if you even look up the info.
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        I hear Phelps is dead, a joy to us all.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        know those who would do you harm, a useful survival trait.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        if you knew anything on the subject whatsoever you’d know Fergus, try using that thing you have in front of you to research and get your facts straight.
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        One thing I do know, my dear lady, is that Phelps is dead, a joy to us all, I have my sources too, you see.There is no charge for this information.but do try to keep up.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        I am aware of that hence the at least since yesterday, and it only took you a week to find out, a gold star to you my dear hater.
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        Mind your manners. I found out as soon as it was so. You obviously don’t check your posts.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        as nI already explained before if you checked YOUR posts I was in hospital recoverig from major surgery when burchill posted this article and for a further month almost afterwards, would have been less time but arguing with people who ju7st want an excuse to hate me kinda spiked my blood pressure, slowing recovery right down.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        if you did any research or study on the subject you’re spouting off about you’d know who phelps was (as of yesterday) and you’d sure as hell know who brennan is.
    - Kitty MLB
      
      Oh, it worked here, I meant transgender.
      not sure why I could not post in the right
      place.
    - Barbara Barrett
      
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/how-much-evidence-does-it_b_4616722.html
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        I don’t believe a word of it. More stuff from scientists beavering away the way they do. You notice how anyone who dares to question them is a climate change denier, which I am. Scientists do what they are paid to do moving like lemmings. A hundred years ago whey would have told you about the scientific basuis for Phrenology and the wandering womb, just as English Literature academics (my field) spew out the crap that is fashionable about post-modernism..
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Certainly 30 years ago, it was common to hear arguments about maternal neglect, or child sex abuse, as an explanation for homosexuality. Hormones enjoyed a vogue. Now it’s genes and evolutionary psychology. I expect a dietary theory in the next few years – mothers who drink skim milk during pregnancy, perhaps. The lack of fat triggers a compensatory mechanism in the fetus, and if it’s male the excess steroids affect its brain, poor mite.
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        I like it, Mr Vernon.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        you would Fergus
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Never be afraid to look at links. The ones that BB forwarded are mostly review articles, conference papers, unpublished PhDs, and papers in microjournals. Of the original research, only refs. 8 and 13 are relevant to transsexuals, and one of those is about finger length ratios. There is actually better stuff in better journals, but only a handful of papers about brain structure in TS who have not yet begun taking hormones.
    - Terri Tg
      
      Fergus, there are some poor souls who are NOT transgender and think they are, for whatever reason. no one in their right mind would CHOOSE to be: ostracized by work, friends family, society. or willingly be discriminated against just so they can change themselves. we are who we are, the less than 4% of transsexuals that have gotten through the system who actually WERE NOT transsexuals is the reason it is so hard for the rest of us to BE ourselves, not what parents, siblings or the rest of society expects of us based on some physical data that is minimalistic at best. you can look at a body and say “they have female/male genitalia” but that does NOT tell you if they are gay, bi sexual, asexual, etc.
      
      those arguing otherwise are just against it for whatever reason,ignoring the logic of the evidence found so far.
      
      there is a study of deceased Transsexuals, the brain is dissected to see if they can figure things out. they have found that a vast majority of those examined had brains that were developed as the sex they claimed, NOT what their body showed at birth.
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        Read what I said, not what you think I said. The fact is that now, today, nobody knows what makes these people the way they are. Just as nobody knows why some people are homosexuals.It seems to me that ‘studies’ often find what those engaged in them want to find i.e. that science is not the dis[asionate thing it claims to be. Meanwhile it behoves us all to be kind.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Hmm. Unless you know of more studies, there have been just two papers showing differences in post-mortem brain tissue taken from transsexuals; both papers studied two tiny areas of the brain, the INAH3 and the BSTc. The first study involved 10 MtF TS (eight of them treated with hormones), the second studied just 6 (in both cases, compared with males and females). Although the authors claim they ‘controlled’ for hormone levels, the methods section of the INAH3 paper suggests otherwise. These are very small numbers of TS brains on which to base such large claims. The volume of these two areas is about 0.1 ml (about 1/50th of a teaspoon). These areas are not reliably
        different even in males and females, so it is difficult to accept that
        they are always half as big in MTF transsexuals as in born males.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        in case you failed to notice we aren’t up to the eyeballs in transsexuals on this planet. Given the tiny numbers involved is it any suprise only a small viable sample at a time could be collected?
    - Aura Willow Hazel
      
      Put your money where your mouth is, live in the oppopsite gender role for, say, 2 weeks, correct p[eople when they mispronoun you anmd face the consequences then tell me would anybody of sound mind choose this if it was a choice. Then bear in mind we have to do that FOR 5 YEARS SOLID as part of the RLT and undergo extensive screening by aq professional psychiatrist to even be considered for transition.
    - Aura Willow Hazel
      
      do you know many people who volunteer for a higher murder rate? Violent abuse in the street? People grabbing you because they feel entitled? Being disowned by family and friends? No didn’t think so, that’s the reality of being trans. If you think people sign up for that because fashion then you are either not aware of the realities or a fool.
  - Jeffrey Vernon
    
    I’d be very surprised indeed if there were no ‘trans by choice’ people. The gay community divides between those who are quite sure they have a gene, those who recall making up their mind to be gay, a subset of those who try to turn other people gay, and a large group that don’t care one way or the other. It’s likely the same for transexuals
    - danah sparkle
      
      The fact that you suspect it doesn’t really matter. It does nothing to undermine the original point, even if it were anything more than a suspicion on your part, which it’s not.
      
      I’m not even going to address the “gay who turn other people gay” stuff as it’s a bit too paranoid and weird for me to even respond to.
      
      Furthermore, comparing gay people to trans people is about as apt as comparing gay people to tall people.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        What was the original point? That trans people don’t choose to be trans? I worded my post in a sneaky way; I know two people who chose. That’s two black swans, and I admit it’s not much to go on, but it means that my suspicion is well-founded. It also explains my (perhaps erroneous) impression that an analogy can be drawn between gay and trans poeple.
        
        As for my paranoid suggestion – I’ve learned that there is no idea so weird that it doesn’t happen. The view that ‘any woman can’ was quite widespread in the women’s movement, and there were certainly gay women (and I suspect gay men) who tried to show their straight sisters what they were missing.
- Ooh!MePurse!
  
  What a load of old clap trap!
  - Livia Rose
    
    If you come at an argument with “That is Crap” your argument is invalid. THX!!! For playing!!!!!
    - global city
      
      The trouble with the internet is that lefties cannot impose their control on the parameters of the debate. This is the main reason why their absurd memes and dogmas are finally being exposed as vacuous nonsense that they always were.
      
      Perhaps this is just in time to save western civilisation… for both women and men.
      - Ooh!MePurse!
        
        Well said. Or typed!
      - Livia Rose
        
        If you think it is just the “left” you don’t know the real problem. And who ate you to tell me my mind!!
      - Terri Tg
        
        why is is “vacuous nonsense” because you think it is? big thinker you are. please where is your phd from? or masters maybe? no, a bachelors then? and if so what field is it in.
        
        parameters of the debate is easy. the haters for whatever made up reason, and why they should not be allowed to spew it, vs those in need of medical assistance for a SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN condition. pretty simple.
        
        and i am NOT a lefty thank you very much, while i am not a die hard/hard core hating republican as you seem to be, i am paying for my own medical thank you very much, i have worked since i was 10 years old, and only been unemployed twice in my life. so, please, give us a reason your opinion of things is so valid compared to real scientists and decades of data?????
        
        and if it is as you say NOT a biological reason, how do you explain intersexed individuals????
      - global city
        
        Your ranting and aimless post proves my point. Just look at the number of assumptions and accusations you have made, merely because I ‘dared’ to question the demonisation of opponents for political reasons, using every meme possible?
        
        I am fine with people living their lives as they wish or feel compelled to do…. I am fine with all rubbing along together as humans, with all of our frailties and conditions, etc.
        
        YOU on the other hand seem determined to elevate yourself because you find yourself in some situation that I have no problem with. Special pleading is bad enough, but supporting the crushing of opponents by politically minded lunatics goes way beyond any position your situation may provide.
        
        So, get lost. I have no negative attitude to people who live with the situation you bleat on about. I aimed my fire wholly at left wing agitprop merchants who exploit it, for their own ends.
        
        If you were able to think about the issue clearly you would have long ago come to understand that you are not respected by those who use the issue as a political tool. Read their own words. THEY think that you are all freaks who will destroy society, not me… think about that and then maybe aim your own fire at those who think you are to be exploited to ‘bring down society’.
    - Ooh!MePurse!
      
      Yeah, not going to lose any sleep over this ludicrous article or your Mrs Big Pinny response. Can’t believe it’s in a magazine for grown ups!
      - Livia Rose
        
        Why don’t I take the very thing you hate about yourself and throw it back in your face!!!!! Mrs Big Pinny? Really it is people like you that make it so hard for us. Insults are the first sign you are talking to an ignorant person who doesn’t care they are ignorant.
- Jeffrey Vernon
  
  I have just searched Pubmed, the science and medicine database of over 5000 journals, using the terms transgender and neurological (as in your post). There are precisely TWO publications, one in 2006, the other in 2012, both of them case reports on a single subject. Moreover, I cannot think of a neurological experiment that could possibly demonstrate that trans people are born trans. Now: this doesn’t actually bother me, because questions of trans/gender are not, in the end, medical or anthropological or psychological. What it does mean is that you have nothing to gain from slanting your arguments in this scientistic way. Trans people will have to stop hiding behind doctors’ white coats, and make their own bid for acceptance and participation.
  - sinmantyx
    
    The medical community generally uses the term “transsexual”.
    
    If you search for transsexual there are 889 hits.
    
    If you search for “transsexual” and “brain” there are 44 hits.
    
    Have fun.
    
    But your point is well taken – even if there were no evidence about how/why transgender people exist – they have a right to bodily autonomy, and their access to medical treatment that has been shown to decrease anxiety and suicidal thoughts in most patients should not be denied to them.
    
    (You can look through the APA website for information about standards of care for treatment of gender dysphoria.)
    - Jeffrey Vernon
      
      I admit, I wasn’t trying hard to do a systematic review. I chose the two search terms mentioned by B Barrett, on purpose to exclude papers about rats, peripheral hormones, speculative articles, psychological studies… Looking through your list of 44, around 30 are NOT to do with anatomical, fMRI or pharmacological studies in the brains of TS. Of those remaining 15, I suspect that around half will suffer from low n, poor controls, or shonky data reduction; not because this is a special fault of neuroresearch into TS, but because an undergrad journal club can normally find the serious flaws even in Nature papers. My objection to the medical plea is that it’s frequently deployed to stop debate: ‘I’ve got a condition, so you can’t argue about my identity, politics, or my debating style. And unless you’ve got the same condition, you are incapable of understanding me.’ Like the gay bloody gene argument.
      - Deirdre Hebert
        
        In other words, Jeffrey, you can use your powers of exegesis, eisegisis and dismissal to support your conclusions regardless of the science.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        That is not a sensible interpretation of what I wrote. BB claimed there are many studies on trans neurology. Sinmatyx found 44 (bear in mind there are 5000 journals on Pubmed, some of them going back to the 1950s). Only 15 are reports on the brains of trans people. Even if they are all well-designed studies, this is not much evidence to go on.
        
        My other point is that minorities should stop hiding behind doctors’ white coats. Their political and social struggle should not rest on biological claims. Data can only tell you what was observed; data can’t tell you what to do about it – that’s the task of society.
        
        As for exegesis, eisegisis…one day I’ll look them up.
      - Deirdre Hebert
        
        As far as “hiding behind doctors’ white coats – do you realize that the entire argument regarding poor treatment of LGBT people hinges on the idea that being LGBT is a “choice”? So it seems that you don’t mind that side, and at the same time you are saying that people who are LGBT shouldn’t worry about evidence. In short – “suck it up”.
        And as far as whether the issue is in the brain alone – and the number of studies – there aren’t many people studying transgender individuals. Nor are all the studies relegated to the brain alone.
        But if you’re just looking for excuses to be able to be uncivil, and to disregard the very many people who are beaten and killed each and very year for the “crime” of being trans – you seem to be doing a very good job.
        And that’s the part you don’t seem to get – transgender women – and especially trans women of color are actually fighting for the right to not be assaulted and killed just for the crime of being who they are – apparently something you don’t seem to care much about.
        Please visit http://www.transgenderdor.org/ – look at the memorials – look at how these people die – and then tell me that asa human race the problem resides in the transgender people that some find offensive.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Excuses to be uncivil…I don’t know who you think I am, but I’ve not logged on to be a transphobe.
        
        I have to tell you that plenty of gay people insist that they did choose their orientation – and in fact, the gay gene idea was seen as a sinister eugenic argument until quite recently. In sections of the women’s movement, it become a point of honour to choose lesbianism. If you want to talk about evidence, the classic gay gene paper by Dean Hamer (in Science, 1993) was challenged by George Rice, who examined the same family pedigree data and found no connection between gays and mutations on the X chromosome.
        
        Nowadays, in the era of rapid genome sequencing, it is easier than ever to link gene mutations to behaviour; but there is still no gay gene (I’ve looked on Pubmed). And, as I wrote before, science is actually irrelevant to democratic debate – WE have to decide what we want to do, not wait for science to catch up. Bigots will not suddenly accept gays if they find out it’s biological – they’ll just want to sterilise their mothers instead.
      - Deirdre Hebert
        
        “… plenty of gay people insist that they did choose their orientation …” Really? Are you talking about people in the “ex-gay movement”?
        Please – show me a Pubmed article that suggests that sexual orientation is a choice. Or are you using different sets of standards depending upon who is making the argument?
        As for the “gay gene”, there are a few things you might wish to consider.
        Firstly, Hammer’s article was hardly the last word, and Rice didn’t disprove Hammer’s research – he simply failed to replicate the results – though other researchers did. But 1999 is quite a while ago, and resorting to Rice’s article dismisses a great deal of research that has been conducted since. You might want to look into a study by Mustanski et. al. in 2005.
        Also, since 1999, a great deal of research has been done regarding epigenetics. Not all heritable traits are conveyed by our nuclear DNA.
        The vast majority of researchers and clinical practitioners are convinced that sexuality is not a choice. You, apparently, disagree with the preponderance of the science. I’m wondering what qualifications you have to examine scientific data and to come to a conclusion that is in opposition to the preponderance of the evicence?
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        I’m not talking about ex-gays. I’m talking about gays who don’t accept that their complex behaviours, acquired at different stages of their life, and expressed in so many varieties and preferences, some of them having nothing to do with sexual activity, and some of them conditioned by their life experiences and the cultural background, can be reduced to a region of the X chromosome, as in the Hamer study. You keep insisting that gay people are defined by scientists. Since I don’t think they are, I haven’t bothered looking for articles on gay-as-a-choice, which is not the kind of question that would interest a geneticist in any case.
        
        To be sure, there are epigenetic THEORIES about homosexuality – just as there are epigenetic THEORIES about Alzheimer’s disease. WR Rice thinks that imprints on maternal genes can survive erasure in the developing egg, but even he admits that there is no evidence for it yet (read his think-piece: it’s not primary data, because there isn’t any). I would add that his proposal might explain babies born as intersex, but how it could explain sexual object choice is quite unclear. Even in cancer, where there is most evidence of epigenetic effects, the status of epigenesis is controversial.
        
        My qualifications: anyone can do a lit search and look at the methods section. As for the idea of a consensus, or preponderance of opinion – science just doesn’t work this way, even about matters that ought to be objective and measurable, like the effect of cholesterol on heart disease, or the physiological concentration of nitric oxide in tissues. These questions of basic biochemistry are still controversial, and the leaders of the field don’t agree with each other. There are not so many geneticists working on sexual orientation that one can speak of ‘the vast majority of researchers’ in any case. as I wrote before – bigots will hate gays even if it turns out to be genetic, and especially if it’s an epigenetic error you can treat with demethylating drugs during pregnancy.
      - Deirdre Hebert
        
        I’d like to see where you found these “plenty of gay people” who chose their orientation. This would be especially entertaining when coupled with the idea that a “vast majority of research” is meaningless. I’ve certainly not met a single person who claims to have chosen their orientation.
        We do choose our actions – we don’t choose our orientation. I can choose to have sex or not. I could choose to have sex with someone who is male, or with someone who is female. But that does not necessarily make me straight or gay.
        Perhaps you are confusing “who a person has sex with”, with orientation.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        My point is that there is *not* a vast amount of genetic research; given the rapid next-generation sequencing tools now available, this is remarkable. I suspect that, just as with schizophrenia, depression, PTSD, it has been impossible to find any consistent data. One reason for this is that ‘gay’ encompasses such a range of behaviours, sexual practices, and frequencies of sexual activity, and ages of onset, that you would have to stratify the DNA donors very carefully to get good data. I suspect too that many gay people are uninterested in the question, and would not give informed consent to take part in a study.
        
        Forget about molecular tools; there is no compelling family pedigree evidence either. This is not surprising, since you would need families with large numbers of children per generation to show any kind of inheritance, and it would only work for single gene defects (I seriously doubt that a single gene regulates complex behaviours like sexual orientation; and if it did, it would have been found by now).
        
        Theories come and go; some medics and scientists in the last 40 years have been quite convinced that the cause of homosexuality is child sex abuse, maternal behaviour, single childhood, hormones, gay genes, gay germs (yes, a pathogen theory), epigenes, evolutionary psychology.
        
        I don’t know why it matters to you that scientists should give gays permission to exist. The bigots will still hate them.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Just to add: the ‘vast majority’ of researchers who work in the field agree that IQ is heritable. You are aware, I am sure, of society’s resistance to this view. At best, we treat it as expert opinion, and we don’t think it compels us to change educational policy.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        in case you aint noticed transsexuals aint exactly common, the areas of sudy usually require the study be post mortem, where do you propose this large number of trans bodies should come from? Bear in mind there’s usually about 1 per state, that’s mega spread out.
  - kellibusey
    
    I googled “transsexual neurological”
    https://www.google.com/search?q=transsexual+neurological&oq=transsexual+neurological&aqs=chrome..69i57.6731j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
    and got 1,510,000 returns. +Not all are scientific studies. Some are ads and even one mindless rant from Kathey the genderless bender
    - Jeffrey Vernon
      
      I used Pubmed, the online database of published scientific and medical articles. Google will capture everything in newspapers and blogs and websites, many of them anonymous, and whether or not they have any scientific content or validity. There is really very little biological research on trans brains, and certainly nothing even attempting to prove that babies can be born trans.
      - Zoe_Brain
        
        Some good lists:
        http://www.cakeworld.info/home/transsexualism/what-causes
        http://aebrain.blogspot.com.au/p/transsexual-and-intersex-gender-identity.html
        
        The latter has some data about Intersex people, “Nature’s Experiments” which strongly suggest a neurological basis for gender identity.
        
        For example:
        
        Discordant Sexual Identity in Some Genetic Males with Cloacal Exstrophy Assigned to Female Sex at Birth by Reiner and Gearhart, N Engl J Med. 2004 January 22; 350(4): 333–341.
        
        RESULTS Eight of the 14 subjects assigned to female sex declared
        themselves male during the course of this study, whereas the 2 raised as
        males remained male. Subjects could be grouped according to their
        stated sexual identity. Five subjects were living as females; three were
        living with unclear sexual identity, although two of the three had
        declared themselves male; and eight were living as males, six of whom
        had reassigned themselves to male sex. All 16 subjects had
        moderate-to-marked interests and attitudes that were considered typical
        of males. Follow-up ranged from 34 to 98 months.
        
        CONCLUSIONS Routine neonatal assignment of genetic males to
        female sex because of severe phallic inadequacy can result in
        unpredictable sexual identification. Clinical interventions in such
        children should be reexamined in the light of these findings.
        Restricting yourself to PubMed is reasonable. Restricting yourself to one or two keywords, not so much.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        As I admitted to Sinmantyx, I wasn’t trying to do a systematic review. I checked the two terms suggested by Barbara Barrett, who thinks that trans people are born that way, to find out how many articles were tagged with ‘transsexual’ and ‘neurological.’ There were just two. Sinmantyx, who agrees with B Barrett, did a different search and found 45, of which 15 (I looked) were actually about trans brains, and none about birth.
        
        I don’t think the abstract you’ve linked helps your case at all – 14 subjects were assigned to female gender on the basis of their genitalia, and 8 of them interviewed as adults called themselves male. What this says to me is that gender identity can escape definitions by parents and doctors, and that in a sense can be chosen (but I agree it’s a disconcerting kind of choice to make, and I don’t mean to trivialise it like a choice of tins in a supermarket).
      - Zoe_Brain
        
        I don’t think you comprehend – the assignment included birth certificate, surgery to an approximately female norm, upbringing, name, and not informing them of their medical history when young.
        
        The pressure to conform would be immense.
        
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
        
        “David Reimer (August 22, 1965 – May 5, 2004) was a Canadian man who was born as a healthy male. However, he was sexually reassigned and raised as female after his penis was accidentally destroyed during circumcision.[1] Psychologist John Money oversaw the case and reported the reassignment as successful and as evidence that gender identity is primarily learned. Academic sexologist Milton Diamond later reported that Reimer failed to identify as female since the age of 9 to 11,[2]
        making the transition to living as a male at age 15. Reimer later went
        public with his story to discourage similar medical practices. ”
        
        You’ll still see this egregious case of scientific fraud taught in med schools as fact, that infants are tabulae rasae, gender being taught, not inherent.
        
        As regards birth, may I refer you to :
        Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35
        
        The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male
        direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing
        nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this
        hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of
        belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are
        programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in
        the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes
        place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of
        the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes
        can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in
        trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at
        birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the
        degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that
        social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or
        sexual orientation.
        
        and Prof Sid Ecker’s presentation to the 2009 Annual conference of the APA.
        
        Gender Identity is that innate sense of who you are in this world with
        reference to your sexuality and behavior, not necessarily corresponding
        to your genitalia and reproductive organs. Transgenders are atypical and
        “think” as the opposite gender. Certain areas of the brain have been
        shown to be sexually dimorphic. They are different in structure and
        numbers of neurons in males versus females. Protein Receptors for the
        sex hormones in different areas of the brain (limbic and anterior
        hypothalamic) must be present in sufficient numbers to receive those
        powerful hormones. There are androgen receptors (AR), Estrogen Receptors
        (ER), and Progesterone receptors (PRs). ARs or ERs are predominant at
        different times in different parts of the human brain. Hormone receptor
        genes have been identified in humans, which are responsible for sexually
        dimorphic brain differentiation in the hypothalamus. The groundwork in
        brain gender identity is gene-directed and takes place by forming male
        and female hormone receptors in the brain before the gonads and hormones
        can influence them. Multiple genes acting in concert determine our
        sexual identity. The human brain continues to make neurons and synaptic
        neuronal connections throughout life. This contributes to Gender Role
        Behaviors making individuals in the continuum of gender identity. Gender
        behaviors must be differentiated from gender identity (Hines). Gender
        Identity cannot be predicted from anatomy (Reiner). Brain gender
        identity is determined very early in fetal development, but gender
        expression, expressed as behaviors requires hormonal, environmental,
        social and cultural interactions, which evolve with time. One cannot
        deny the profound effects of Testosterone, Estradiol and other steroids
        on genital differentiation in-utero or their effects on behavior from
        birth or the physical and mental cross gender changes caused by
        exogenous hormones, but gender identity is determined before and
        persists in spite of these effects.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Here we have 8 boys insisting they were boys in spite of external female genitalia surgically acquired at birth. I can see that is an intriguing report on gender assignment. It supports a notion of biological gender awareness in spite of externals (in 8 out of 14 cases), but how does it relate to transsexuals? Transsexuals are not genetic males with female genitals, insisting that they are males; nor are they genetic males with female genitals, agreeing that they are girls. Most TS are not born as intersex, and some at least have no developmental abormality at all. Sorry if I’m missing the point.
      - Zoe_Brain
        
        Sorry if I’m missing the point.
        
        If you didn’t, it’s my fault for not making things clear.
        
        I’ll try again – the evidence strongly suggests that brain anatomy differs between the sexes. Actually, we can consider that proven.
        
        However, everyone’s brains are heterogenous, and some parts can be closer to a pattern mostly found in people we label as male, other parts closer to a pattern mostly found in people we label as female. There is overlap. It’s also not a binary, there are degrees.
        
        It’s further complicated by post-natal hormones affecting some structures, but not the ones we’re looking at here.
        
        See :
        Changing your sex changes your brain: influences of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure by Pol et al, Europ Jnl Endocrinology, Vol 155, suppl_1, S107-S114 2006
        
        In particular, distribution of cell types is not affected.
        
        So in summary, while there’s no such thing as a “male brain” or “female brain”, it;s a useful shorthand to say that a brain with anatomy typical of those we label as females in some particular areas as a “female brain”.
        
        Diamond’s paper
        Biased-Interaction Theory of Psychosexual Development: “How Does One Know if One is Male or Female?” M.Diamond Sex Roles (2006) 55:589–600 describes a mechanism, and possibly the mechanism by which gender identity is formed due to these anatomical characteristics.
        
        This has certain important practical effects – see
        Clinical Implications of the Organizational and Activational Effects of Hormones M.Diamond Hormones and Behavior 55 (2009) 621–632
        
        The preponderance of evidence seems to indicate that the theory of organization-activation for the development of sexual behavior is certain for non-human mammals and almost certain for humans.
        
        We can’t be completely certain regarding humans, as that would require unethical experimentation on human foetusses in the womb.
        
        Note I’ve not said anything about cis, trans or intersex. This is true for all people.
        
        What does this mean, in summary?
        
        Those with anatomically boy brains will have a male gender identity, regardless of external appearance. Since it’s a matter of anatomy, no amount of “brainwashing” will change it. Which is in accordance with observations over many thousands of patients over many decades.
        
        WPATH Standards of Care v7
        
        Treatment aimed at trying to change a person’s gender identity and expression to become more congruent with sex assigned at birth has been attempted in the past without success (Gelder & Marks, 1969; Greenson, 1964), particularly in the long term (Cohen-Kettenis & Kuiper, 1984; Pauly, 1965). Such treatment is no longer considered ethical.
        
        Every transsexual person ever examined has had this cross-sexed brain anatomy. To say that there is “no developmental anomaly” (abnormality has certain connotations I’d rather not imply) is factually inaccurate. They all do.
        
        This thus explains all observations to date, whereas competing conjectures cannot.
        
        To quote Justice Richard Chisholm after reviewing reams of expert testimony in the Re Kevin decision:
        
        At paragraph [252]: ‘The traditional analysis that they are”psychologically” transsexual does not explain how this state came about. For
        example,there seems to be no suggestion in the evidence that theirpsychological state can be explained by reference to circumstances of their
        upbringing. In that sense, the brain sex theory does not seem to be competing with other explanations, but rather is providing a possible explanation of what is otherwise inexplicable’.
        
        Bottom line – if you’re born with a boy brain, you’ll identify as male, regardless of all other circumstances. Cis, Trans, Intersex.
        
        However there are degrees.
- LonghairedOverfedLeapingGnome
  
  Citation please. Source?
  - Barbara Barrett
    
    Here’s 15 to be getting on with luv
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/how-much-evidence-does-it_b_4616722.html
    - Jeffrey Vernon
      
      Have you looked at this list? Of the 15, only ONE is an original research paper about pre-natal hormone levels in TS. One is about finger length ratios in TS, and another about hormones in children. The rest are papers about hormones and male/female sexual roles or brain dimorphism (not necessarily TS), or reviews, conference papers, and unpublished PhD dissertations. There may well be evidence of the kind you say, but it’s not to be found here.
- Jayne Wattie
  
  If they don’t choose gender according to societal influence that would support the male/female mind theory which feminists have been fighting against for decades! Welcome to the past. Once again we are being shat on from a great height, will it ever end?
ohforheavensake

And this, from Helen Lewis in the New Statesman, answers Julie’s article in a calm, rational, thoughtful manner.

http://www.newstatesman.com/helen-lewis/2014/02/uses-and-abuses-intersectionality
Elizabeth Veldon

genderd name calling, homophobia, trans*phobia, racism and anti-iltelectualism – major win for feminism here.
- Bram
  
  In the sense that these are all hallmarks of that corrosive, odious ideology, yes indeed.
JabbaTheCat

This article is a perfect example of onanistic mental masturbation…
- Friesjones
  
  Yeah, the hardest self-abusive wanking was contained in this phrase:
  
  “…even my trash-talk, it must be said, has a vicious elegance that most people’s A-game lacks.”
  
  Right, Burchill, you’re a legend in your own mind….
  - James Pugilist
    
    Eh she is a legend, whether you like her or not is personal choice
    - Friesjones
      
      Dracula is also a legend.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        ….but there was a real person behind the fairy tale
      - Friesjones
        
        Burchill handles her own publicity, unlike Vlad Tepes. :p
Nicola Marven

All we’re doing is talking about talking. So we might as well make the discussions constructive rather than destructive. Here’s my tuppence: http://nicolamarven.wordpress.com/2014/02/20/interesting-intersectionality/
- La Dame aux Camelias
  
  As an aside to this fascinating and riveting debate, I can’t help noticing that the ‘Michelle / Dame’ person enjoys baiting Ms Burchill as a ‘fatty’, ‘porker’ etc – attacking her physical appearance. M/D appears to require counseling, most definitely.
  Intelligent people take steps to protect their anonimity, usually. Michelle’s wedding pictures (on her Facebook profile, which is so wonderfully visible and really rather sad) might suggest that they refrain from hurling derogatory comments best left to describing themselves. Seriously. Are these comedy photos? I sincerely hope so.
Pip

Feminism in its current guise has destroyed the concept of family and has made us all poorer. I support the notion that a woman is equal to a man however I do not believe they are the same, and there in lies the problem with too many Feminists who misunderstand what it is to be a woman.
Mark William Gullick

I just checked my privilege: white, middle-class, heterosexual male with a PhD. I will now be silent while I decide whether to use my powers for good or evil.
- Rob Harries
  
  go evil, its much more fun and I think it pays better too!
- marti386
  
  No, embrace the light side! Search your feelings, you know it to be true! 🙂
  - Cyril Sneer
    
    So the light side is blaming an entire race for something that supposed to have happened a long time ago? Add to that, to blame the current generation of people for so called ‘crimes’ committed by people who are long since dead. Is that supposed to be the light side eh racist ignorant?
    - marti386
      
      I’m not blaming an entire race. I’m simply asking they acknowledge privilege, and try not to use it to stomp on trans people.
      - global city
        
        Go check your own privilege, which will be much greater than many, many ordinary white folk.
      - Dana
        
        Transwomen have accomplished what “cis” men have only dreamed of–being able to go into the women’s bathroom without permission. Oh, and raping a transwoman is considered a hate crime, while raping a “cis” woman is not. Have a nice day. 🙂
      - marti386
        
        “Oh, and raping a trans woman is considered a hate crime, while raping a “cis” woman is not”
        
        So, is that trans women’s fault? Trans women entering the women’s restroom do it because they are women, and not at all for the same reason a cis man might.
        
        But this IS an example of the twisted logic TERFs use to hate on trans peeps. “Rape for cis women isn’t a hate crime, so it must be trans women’s fault!” Maybe you should take it up with the cis men, and stop bothering ME, huh?
        
        Maybe if you’d focused your particular brand of “feminism’ on the ACTUAL people attacking you (instead of trans women), it might be considered a hate crime for you too. Just a thought.
      - seriatim
        
        They’re not women. They’re trans women. And even more than that, they’re just people.
- EvilPundit
  
  Choose evil! Villains have more fun.
  - DropTheMic
    
    So the biggest world minority is evil in your opinion ? How racist.
    - Dana
      
      Minority in numbers only. Now who owns most of the money and the property?
      - TJ
        
        We earned it. Can you say the same?
- Bill Brown
  
  Can I be your minion?
- Cincinnatus
  
  You shouldn’t even, like, uhmm, be allowed to have an opinion on women’s and colored people’s issues and stuff. That’s just sooo bigoted.
rabotnika

It’s weird how so many of these critiques of intersectionality start out general but then turn into really specific complaints about certain groups. For many, the target is black women, but for Burchill it’s always trans women. I’m sure this tendency is just a coincidence, though…?
- Rob Harries
  
  I’ve read a few critiques, what other ones other than this that follow your observation?
- global city
  
  Intersectionality…Hmmmm!
- AndrewS
  
  It’s possible that Ms Burchill’s references to transgendered people could be linked to the fact that it is part of a shout-out with Paris Lees who is a transgendered journalist person who is doing the opposing shouting.
  - Aura Willow Hazel
    
    perhaps then it’s time burchill learned how debate is conducted, first one person speaks, then the other, paris tried at the start burchill just didn’t let her get a word in edgewise.
    - AndrewS
      
      That may or may not be a fair point but my point was that, on this occasion, it wasn’t a question of the ‘general’ turning into the ‘specific’. This was always a debate that had transgendered people at its core.
marti386

I would have thought that after it was patiently explained WHY her last piece was horribly transphobic, Burchill might have done some introspection on how to be a better ally to trans people.

No such luck it seems.

Burchill seems to delight in being a mean spirited transphobe who hurls the nasiest insults she can, all while bragging about the “vicious elegance” of her attacks.

But the biggest point of her article is the one thing we should all take heart in. She’s basically having a giant hissy fit over the fact that she’s now held accountable.

Burchill (and TERFs like her) can NO longer spout the harmful, transphobic swill they’ve been peddling for decades WITHOUT getting severe blowback. They can no longer publicly make such bigoted claims, and then pass it off as acceptable feminism.

In short, feminism has grown up, and left dinosaurs like Burchill in the past. Burchill can whine all she wants, but what she seems to think passes for serious feminist discourse is a joke, As are ALL the TERFs. She’s winning no allies with this rubbish. In fact, it’s pretty obvious that the only reason she’s not on some obscure blog ranting away is that the Spectator thinks it’s better to get negative attention than none at all.

You’re time is over, Julie. You radfems had a chance to do some really amazing things for women. INSTEAD, you wasted your movement attacking trans people and sex workers. All while conservatives slowly rolled back 40 years of women’s rights. Talk about fiddling while Rome burns.
- Jeffrey Vernon
  
  What, please, is a TERF? If it’s a special term of abuse for people you don’t agree with, it tends to confirm JB’s view that trans campaigns are essentially un-political. What is the positive content of trans rights? Does it have something to say about social change, or is it largely a demand for acceptance? In either case, you will have to exercise a bit of imaginative empathy – most people don’t understand the idea that a dissatisfaction with one’s assigned gender can lead to a desire to change its externals. Insisting that we’re all ‘phobes’ is not a way to win allies and influence, and just makes you look overwrought and defensive.
  - Terri Tg
    
    TERF is Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists. it is a term describing their movement and goal, no more, no less. and it is NOT dissatisfaction, it is better known as gender dsyphoria, look it up for a better understanding. or try this on:
    
    you have a child who is a prodigy, be it instrumental music, singing, math, etc. ask them to explain how they do it? they cant, they just CAN. it is the same for transsexuals (the term trans is pretty generic, it covers a wide spectrum from cross dressers, to transvestites to intersex, etc.) most people seem to think all trans are transsexuals, people with a physical body that does NOT match their mind and soul. yes mind, as they have a lot of research showing that minds of transsexuals are more developed like the sex they present as vs the biological sex of their body at birth. it is NOT a want, it is a NEED, the need to be ourselves finally, not what we have to pretend to be to make those in society who cant accept anything different as “normal” or “real”. THAT is why we have such an absurdly high rate of suicide and suicide attempts. We just want to be ourselves, not mocked, made to feel less etc. the same rights etc as the sex/gender we really are. pretty darn simple, until you get people like these women involved.
    
    Those women ACT like trans phobes so they are labeled as such. they have MULTIPLE times done this, and been asked to rethink, rephrase, they dont on purpose, to suit their purpose..
    - Jeffrey Vernon
      
      Well.. you have quibbled about my use of words, when dysphoria is just Greek for the same thing; and you’ve given me a psychological account of needing to be trans. This strikes me as futile as homosexuals claiming to have a gay gene. In the end, acceptance/assimilation will not come down to science. Trans people can do two things in my view; be visible in campaigns for social progress, and be visibly successful in their careers. It won’t do to say ‘how can we do that when there’s so much hatred from terfs’, or to become argumentative over words. And locking horns with JB is a waste of effort.
      - Friesjones
        
        Actually, Gender Dysphoria has been one of the medical terms used to describe the basis of Gender Identity Disorder. It’s a medical diagnostic term of art. Go ahead and Google it, and maybe quit wasting effort yourself.
        
        It’s not as if you can’t look up stuff on the Internet before you either make up your own theories of Trans or else make demands on trans people to educate you with a spoon and a bib. If you have something against Google, there are other search engines.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        I put forward *no* theory of trans, and I didn’t request abc information of any kind. My post to TerriTg took issue with her ‘scientistic’ slant, and you have followed in the same vein; as though the argument is about medicine, data, and education. You have also taken up a hectoring tone that is not deserved by what I wrote. My original post asked about the positive content of trans rights – whether this is ‘out there’ on the web is beside the point; as you know, all kinds of crap is to be found on the web. Here on this blog, many of the contributions are merely defensive, and some trans commentators seem determined to have hurt feelings. I think this is probably how the whole ‘Brazilian’ affair kicked off.
      - sinmantyx
        
        Being a transgender person is different than being gay. There are many parallels in their fight for acceptance and basic civil rights. However, unlike being gay, some transgender people require medical care due to gender dysphoria. If left untreated, it can be life threatening to that person.
        
        There is a long horrible history of homosexuality being pathologized. Homosexuality was taken out of the DSM – likewise, so has Gender Identity Disorder. (The DSM-V does not include it.)
        
        However, the gender-related disphoria that many trans people experience often requires treatment. So within the public discussions surrounding trans gender rights, science and medicine are subjects that simply can’t be completely avoided.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        I don’t deny what you say as a clinical fact; but it strikes me as a poor basis for campaigning. I don’t think TS will get many supporters if they position themselves as a branch of disability or mental health rights. After all, it’s not the origin of my disability that the public empathises with; and there’s an expectation that I will make the best of the abilities I do have.
      - OfficialPro
        
        It’s not a clinical fact, it’s a political fact. Certain types of mental illness are like a river in Egypt.
      - OfficialPro
        
        There was NO science involved in taking homosexuality out of the DSM. It was solely due to political activism. There were no studies done leading up to said decision. That’s not legitimate.
    - OfficialPro
      
      How could anyone “know” what the other sex feels/thinks like and then attribute such feelings and thoughts to themselves? Isn’t that sort of like a cat thinking it’s a fish without having any idea how fish think or feel?
      - Zoe_Brain
        
        Two articles that might aid understanding: Both are over-simplified, but as long as you realise that neither sex nor gender are strict binaries (though the binary model is a good enough approximation for most purposes – like a flat Earth model is good enough when walking to the corner shop), they do capture the essence.
        
        Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35
        
        The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.
        
        Biased-Interaction Theory of Psychosexual Development: “How Does One Know if One is Male or Female?” M.Diamond Sex Roles (2006) 55:589–600
        
        A theory of gender development is presented that incorporates early biological factors that organize predispositions in temperament and attitudes. With activation of these factors a person interacts in society and comes to identify as male or female. The predispositions establish preferences and aversions the growing child compares with those of others. All individuals compare themselves with others deciding who they are like (same) and with whom are they different. These experiences and interpretations can then be said to determine how one comes to identify as male or female, man or woman. In retrospect, one can say the person has a gendered brain since it is the brain that structures the individual’s basic personality; first with inherent tendencies then with interactions coming from experience.
      - danah sparkle
        
        I don’t know exactly what that feels like – for me, the only times I’ve peddled in anything resembling that simplified statement is to try to package it in a way that cis people like you can understand.
        
        So no, I don’t know what it feels like to be “male” or “female”
        
        I *do* know what gender dysphoria feels like though. Put simply it makes you want to crawl out of your own skin every waking moment. It’s not pleasant at all.
Andy Goodall

A very good read and about time arseholes were taken down a peg or two.
ursprung

I don’t like Burchill but she is absolutely correct about the harassment that women have been facing for being gender critical (not trans critical). She is right that trans persons are getting women fired, she is correct about Paris Lees’ starting a blog about Bindel’s genitals, and she accurately points out the double standard that trans activists have taken towards women. What is going on in the UK is horrifying and trans activists need to take a breather and see what they are doing in the name of alleged human rights. Most people don’t have an inkling about the harassment of women–nowadays it is Glossitch and Gia Milinovitch being harassed. All because they used the word ‘female’ which is ostensibly trans exclusive. The joke is on the trans community because clearly female does include trans men.

This entire subject is mad and maddening. The trans want privileges to be respected and yet they throw out TERF and ‘cis’ and all sorts of nonsense and derisive terms. Go to Twitter to watch this nonsense play out. Trans activists are attempting to violate women’s spaces all in the refrain of suicide and violence. Fair enough, trans folks DO face these forms of emotional and physical violence. SO DO WOMEN however. Again, go to Twitter and watch how reasonable women are asking to discuss female body issues and are called transphobic.

Burchill nails it with her definition of intersectionality and the lack of mixing in social groups. People need to wake up!
- Elizabeth Veldon
  
  and terfs are getting women fired, making them homeless, teaming up with right wing politicians to deny them healthcare, outing children…i could go on but why bother.
  
  ‘terf’ and ‘cis’ are nothing other than descriptive terms, if you don’t like them then you don’t like your own reflection
  
  the rage of calaban indeed
  - Jeffrey Vernon
    
    Wrong. cis and terf are the same dismal namecalling that your opponents go in for. Just drop it.
    - Elizabeth Veldon
      
      no, ‘cis’ describes ‘non-trans*’ in the same way that ‘hetrosexual’ describer ‘not-homo or bisexual’
      
      ‘terf’ means a radical feminist who is for the exclusion of trans*people from feminism and women’s space – a descriptive term.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        But these are not neutral terms, an inoffensive scientific vocabulary that we’ve all signed up to. All heterosexual people, if they were asked about it and they cared enough, would define themselves as heterosexual. Cis does not have this currency – it is either a term of abuse, or it is the self-conscious identity of a small number of people who’ve accepted the word for themselves. Trans campaigners ought to emphasise what unites us all instead of difference, division, distinction. It is this determination to be ‘odd’ and to mark boundaries that makes non-trans people unsympathetic
      - OtherBecky
        
        This argument about the term “cis” is almost word-for-word the argument that straight people used to make about “straight” or “heterosexual.” The idea then was that not having a word that meant “not gay” contributed to the stigma of being gay — only the folks who were different, weird, not normal, needed a special word to describe them. Calling people “straight” or “heterosexual” was really offensive to a lot of people, because it implied that the distinction was no longer gay vs normal.
        
        But most people have gotten over that now. (Not all, but most.) Very few straight people would object to being called straight. If society is ever going to begin accepting trans people as something other than shockingly deviant, we need a word that means “not trans.” “Cis” means “on the same side as.” My body and my self are both on the same side of the gender spectrum, therefore I am a cis woman.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        But the heterosexuals and homosexuals were a pre-existing category for decades – in psychology, sociology, culture, law at the very least. All that was needed was new snappy words for them (straight and gay). And gay people were defining themselves as the victims of statutes; there was a sense in which the straights really did enjoy a negatively-defined privilege (of not being arrrested in toilets).
        
        Cis on the other hand is a wholly manufactured identity with no historical roots at all, being cis does not give you advantages in the criminal law, and I can see no obvious call for it. You are a woman plain and simple, and you don’t become anything else, either in your own psychology, or in the eyes of society, culture or the law, by becoming a cis woman. You might as well invent a name for non-masturbators, or non-divorced people, or non-celibates, or non-virgins.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        I reject the term “cis” as something imposed on me rather than chosen by me.
- Krissie
  
  TERF: Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist. A term first used by non-trans feminists, it indicates that a particular brand of radical feminism which declares that the gender of trans people is determined by their assigned sex at birth is not accepted by the wider radical feminist movement.
  
  Cis: Short for cisgender, it is the opposite of trans (ie: transgender). Much like cis is the opposite of trans in chemical terminology, cis refers to the quality of having a gender identity that matches that which was assigned at birth.
  
  I utterly fail to see how these are nonsense terms, and fail to see how they are derisive to an even greater extent.
  
  Perhaps the problem is that it’s preferred that prevailing understanding is there are normal people and then there are trans people who aren’t normal. After all, once you start accepting that if you aren’t trans then you must be cis, you have to start considering that trans people are actually your equals in the world.
  - Jeffrey Vernon
    
    They are not nonsense as definitions, but the scorn you attach to them is unreasonable. JB and her ilk are hardly the only people in the world who think that gender is a matter of sex assigned at birth. I think that trans campaigners are aiming all their spleen at JB and the so called terfs when actually this view of gender is statistically normal, and not the property of radfems at all. Now, if you agree with my last sentence, what are you going to do about it? Trans visibility in progressive causes, and personal career success, without stooping to name-calling and exclusion zones, might be a place to start. If you can’t see that a term like terf is going to alienate potential sympathisers, there’s something wrong with your PR – normal people just don’t talk in those terms, with all that bogus Latinity about transexclusion. It reminds me of my college going on about concatenation and articulation, when all they mean is timetabling.
    - Friesjones
      
      Oh no, trans women “attach scorn” to people who say that trans women are men. Therefore the term “people” is “dismal namecalling!” Because nothing hurts worse than SCORN! (Disclaimer: Practically EVERYTHING hurts worse than scorn)
- marti386
  
  “I don’t like Burchill but she is absolutely correct about the harassment that women have been facing for being gender critical (not trans critical).”
  
  Actually, you just pointed out the problem right there.
  
  The PROBLEM is that it didn’t take very long for TERFs to go from “gender critical” (which is the idea that gender roles have a damaging effect on women, and is actually a pretty sound concept) to being almost totally “trans critical” (which basically blames trans women for all the gender woes that cis women face).
  
  The idea that trans women can “enforce gender stereotypes” (which is a primary thought in “trans critical” thinking) is BEYOND silly. Trans people are a tiny, marginalized, brutalized minority, with little to no voice in regards to cis people. It’s impossible for us to “enforce gender” on cis women.
  
  Basically,all this flawed thinking comes back to the basic radfem meme that cis men are bad, and trans women are really cis men. Which is sadly wrong. Trans women are about as far from cis men as you can get.
  - Jeffrey Vernon
    
    I think you know what the stereotype claim means – the idea that trans women have to be more feminine than cis women. We’ve met some, haven’t we? Of course they don’t enforce it, but they might REinforce it (which I suspect is what is meant). If you’re a woman who puts on a pair of Levis, you might wonder why a woman who is trans in her *personality* needs to be soft and feminine, and why the NHS therapists insist on it (I’m sorry if yours didn’t, but my flatmate’s did)
    - Elizabeth Veldon
      
      i don’t, i wear cords and sturdy walking shoes and i’m not alone. i’ve known tomboyish trans*women, soft butch trans*women, butch trans*women, femme trans*women, androgynous trans*women
      
      then there’s the whole movement (or rather group of movements) in the wider community who reject the label ‘trans’ as they do not identify as part of a gender binary or disagree with gender binaries as a way of categorising people. i should know, i’m one of them.
      
      i was one of them when i sought ‘treatment’ on the nhs and it took four years for me to get the surgery i required as a result (and three years to even get hormones) while the doctors tried time and time again to diagnose me with mental illnesses
      
      thing is i would still be ‘reinforcing gender stereotypes’ to terfs
      - James Pugilist
        
        Lucky we have a NHS
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        i thank the lord (not literally, obviously, for it every night
  - James Pugilist
    
    Valid point
  - ursprung
    
    No, I stated a problem–that people are conflating gender criticism with trans criticism. And yeah, trans women and women can enforce gender stereotypes. What is silly is your disregard for the reality of this fact.
    
    As for it is impossible to ‘enforce gender’ on women, uh, yeah. Trans women are doing it all the time by shouting down and threatening women who critique gender. We can critique gender because it affects us. It affects men as well. That trans women still retain much of their male privilege does not surprise me when I see comments like yours attempting to skool me about my ‘flawed thinking’. You just enforced your notion of gender on me. Gender is not just about wearing high heels or Converse–it is much more subtle. It is about letting women have their criticism as well without being labelled with epithets (TERF is a throwaway term). I know several radical feminists and they are pro-trans rights all the way. To correct your assertion they do not see trans women as men, they see trans women as males–which they are. Biology matters.
Catherine Hopkins

The best line in the article is, ‘as is my wont now my career’s gone up the Swannee.’ Presumable she means ‘Swanee’ but I guess with no career she can’t afford a spellchecker. The sentiment is enough to raise a cheer from me, anyway.
Susannah Clark

Before you start telling people the qualities you need to be a real woman, perhaps it would help if you found out the qualities you need to be a real human being.

Your rant last year was vile, and frankly your credibility has never recovered.

You used abusive terminology to stigmatise a minority who already get their share of discrimination and societal marginalisation.

It was a classic example of the ‘attribution model’ of stigma, where you blame people for effectively ‘choosing’ to be stigmatised. You seem to present being transgender as a lifestyle choice, as cosmetic, reducing the transgender person to a ‘player’, in a relegated idea of gender as ‘construction’, with trans people given ‘performance status’ (Namaste 2000 – Invisible Lives), effectively the ‘dupes’ of gender, aspiring to stereotypes in what amounts to a fantasy (Lev 2004 – Transgendered Emergence).

It’s all been said before. You just managed to win the prize for being a dick in the way you said it so virulently.

But way to go. The NHS must be wrong. The Royal Colleges of Psychiatry must be wrong. Politicians and the law must be wrong. You imagine you must be right. The possibility that gender involves *both* internal identity/feeling *and* constructive ways you express that in society… would subvert a reduction of the term ‘woman’ to chromosomes and genitalia. That equation is a myth.

Women don’t just feel they are women because they have certain genitals. There is innate identity and feeling, as well as social expression. Transgendered women make the oh-so-hedonistic “choice” you imply, to lose jobs, and social status and safety, to lose families, friends, to lose housing and to win abuse and harassment (which, yes, other women also suffer, but it’s not a competition).

And they “choose” this, not because they are “bedwetters” to coin your charming phrase, but because it’s who they internally and compellingly find themselves to be. And it’s psychologically horrific for many people. And intolerable. And it throws life into chaos. And ffs, it deserves decency and kindness and acceptance and inclusion… and not the theoretical ravings of a shit journalist who has *zero* willingness towards trans people to be… a decent human being.

This is not theory. This is our lives. I don’t give a shit about your privileges or your lack of them. I frankly don’t give a shit about your values or your assumed right to write about who we are. Or your mean-spirited exclusion of trans people from the gender they experience and express. In ethnographic terms, you need to shut up and actually start to *listen* to the lived experiences of trans women… you know, basic feminist principle, let us speak for our own lives… instead of reducing and classifying us in your dogma.

And it would be really, really nice, if you could get to a point where you start to see transgendered women not as a problem, but as a potential, adding to the diverse expressions and experiences of womanhood.

Just as a postscript, I strongly defended Suzanne Moore’s article, but frankly your nauseous diatribe was indefensible. It was truly lowest common denominator, and lacked any intellectual seriousness whatsoever.

You disgust me.
- Jeffrey Vernon
  
  If Burchill’s summary is fair, the failure of empathy started on the other side; S Moore’s comment about Brazilian transsexuals, which anyone should have been able to interpret in the spirit it was meant, drew a chorus of abuse from a defensive crowd who thought ‘she must be getting at me.’ I think it’s this narcissism that JB is getting at – why do people hold themselves in readiness for an attack on their dignity, when none was meant? Naturally, after the ‘monstering’ happened, JB and SM are paying back in the same coin. You might not like JB’s tone, but you are not furthering the debate by citing a jargonistic work of opinion as if it’s a scientific text, by appealing to the authority of psychiatrists, or by presenting the disagreement as an anthropological question. Questions of politics and prejudice don’t come down to book learning. Trans people will have to accept that their own struggle for self-acceptance finds an echo in the bewilderment of society about their condition, which strikes most people as extremely strange. We can’t be expected to just shut up and nod.
  - Elizabeth Veldon
    
    erm, no.
    
    a woman (cis woman) took offence to it and asked her what she meant.
    
    she responded by screaming trans*phobic abuse at them (believing that only a trans*person would dare to say anything to her) and began posting abusive message after abusive message on twitter
    - Friesjones
      
      Careful, you might interrupt Jeffrey’s mansplaining with actual facts.
    - Jeffrey Vernon
      
      a cis woman took offence….
      
      Read your sentence again. Isn’t this exactly the problem? People taking offence?
      
      It was not a trans woman who raised the query; thank you for the information. But as I wrote at the beginning of my post, ‘IF Burchill’s summary is correct…’ This is not at all the same as manipulating facts (as Friesjones alleges below – s/he seems determined to find fault and critcism where none was meant).
  - Flaming Fairy
    
    We can’t be expected to just shut up and nod.
    
    But that’s exactly what you’re expected to do and if you don’t, the Trans-Stasi will make sure you’re hounded and silenced. Fortunately, this unhappy band of internet warriors represents only a tiny proportion of trans people, most of whom are too busy just getting on with their lives and/or doing real work in the real world to help trans people with real problems to find the time to fret about a remark a journalist made in an article very few people actually read.
  - denobili
    
    Jeffrey,
    What in the world ever led you to believe that the burden of your “bewilderment” is even remotely comparable to the difficulties faced by transsexuals?
    - Jeffrey Vernon
      
      As I wrote: the TS struggle *finds an echo* in the bewilderment of society. You are reading my words as many TS and their supporters on this page have done; determined to be hurt, and looking for offense where none is intended.
- Burl Ives
  
  A couple of Julie’s pals were on the receiving end of death threats and harassment from the transgender lobby. She’s simply standing up for her pals. If you were her pals she’d be standing up for you. Enjoy and be grateful for the exposure this is giving to your cause—which everyone knows is real and is hugely sympathetic towards—and get over it.
- Sara Costabile
  
  And you disgust me.
  I think Julie Burchill was quite restrained as having looked at Paris Lees tweets and web-page, she really does look a blow-up sex toy. All done for free on the NHS, it’s enough to make me want the NHS privatised, completely.
  How dare you lecture any cis-woman on what it’s like to be a female. Did you have to run and escape from males as a virginal teenager who were fully intent on sexual assault or worse. Constantly having to deal with unwanted male attention from a young, innocent age due to being born female? Did your parents have to warn you about not talking to strange men from the age of 6. Of course not. It seems that the main aim of prominent trans-sexuals like PLees is actually to become the male sexual fantasty. It certainly has opened my eyes, and if there is no discussion of why so many girls are raped, or gang-raped as in recent case in India, or why FGM is being performed in the UK, or why salaries are still not equal, but only about how great Plees boobs are, then go to hell, the whole trans-sexual world.
  This from PLees (the boys) website: “delivering a late night film slot, The Shooting Gallery. Few remember the films, but her boobs looked great.” Or more of her great boobs: https://twitter.com/ParisLees/media. I also have great boobs, 36DD, but unlike PLees, I grew-up as a woman, not a man and hide mine from the unwanted attention of idiotic men. It must be far worse now, as more females get treated like we’re all wannabe porn stars, or prostitutes. I feel for young girls, truly. Sisterhood between cis and trans women? Not on your fake, plastic twat if that’s how transwomen are behaving.
  - Eggie
    
    So agree with you Sara – this is a diversion feminists should not buy into, while there’s so mush work to be done.
- Trans Fan and Proud
  
  First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out– Because I was not a Socialist.
  
  Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out– Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
  
  Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out– Because I was not a Jew.
  
  Then they came for the transexuals, and I did not speak out- Because I was not a transexual.
  
  Then they came for me–and there was no one left to speak for me.
  - catskitchensink
    
    Trite.
    - BugBug
      
      Happy New Year, peace!
Ashley Krista

Lets hope X people go away so we can continue creating a tolerant society?

I think it’s obvious where the stupidity is coming from, and it isn’t intersectional feminists or trans people.
Krissie

Could I be forgiven for thinking that there is no one all-powerful trans lobby, and that in fact the majority of trans people are busy getting on with their lives, just like the majority of cis (non-trans) people?

If so, then what grounds did Burchill have for tarring all trans people with the same derogatory brush there?

Also… props to Paris for at least attempting to use the imaginary talking stick at the beginning of that ‘debate’. Perhaps Burchill never learned to use one?

… a definite admonishment to the interviewer for allowing Burchill to bully her way through, shout over Paris whenever she tried to speak, and do absolutely nothing but name-call from the outset though. Faced with that, there’s not much choice but to try to keep talking.
- Jeffrey Vernon
  
  Well, trans campaigners often write as though they speak with one voice, and denounce those of us slow to catch up as phobes and terfs. Recall, it was trans campaigners who began the monstering of SM after she made a remark that they chose to interpret as personal attacks on themselves. The suggestion that SM was simultaneously deficient and privileged in being cis-gendered was must have stuck in her craw.
  - Terri Tg
    
    please cite these campaigners that often write as they speak with one voice? news to me.
    
    she was offensive, and when pointed out, doubled down, just like burchill above. they didnt say “oh sorry didnt mean to be offensive” did they? no they were gung ho for more. slow is fine, doesnt make you a phobe or a terf, but their words and actions label them as both
    - Jeffrey Vernon
      
      I am just reading the comments on this page – there does seem to be a kind of groupthink. This is not exclusive to trans people, but it’s quite recognisable.
    - James Pugilist
      
      Stop being so sensitive, was hardly that offensive, u obv don’t know real abuse if you think that’s offensive
  - Aura Willow Hazel
    
    actually it was a CIS woman who called SM on it first. Moore responding with a transphobic slur didn’t help defuse the situation though.
radicalhw

I DARE YOU TO CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE!

(someone had to do it)
Kitty O’Possum

Such collective love, much feminism
Flaming Fairy

The trans people and their supporters here might care to ask themselves why they gather en masse to monster a woman journalist in a way they never do to male journalists.

I’ll just leave that there.
- Liz Ashton
  
  Yes. If that supporter was a TERF or had similar views, of course. It’s happened before. But how many male journalist focus on these isses the way Burchill does?
  - Flaming Fairy
    
    Yeah, of course, of course. Nothing to do with higher expectations of women, nothing at all
    - Terri Tg
      
      yeah she is a TERF, and worse than most males when it comes to Trans issues. that is why she is being “monstered” and Burchill also. No higher expectations (other than i would expect a woman to be more caring than a man, etc) just regular HUMAN decency, not bigoted hate from a bitter hag
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        I see – so women must be judged more harshly, forever and always
      - Terri Tg
        
        no, troll (as your comments are proving yourself to be), but a “woman” is generally more accepting, etc than a man. when they arent, like these two and their cohorts in the TERF groups, it shows they have a deep seated hate. but why is the question? are they “threatened” by the “men claiming to be women” taking over womankind? really? that IS the claim of most TERF groups, it is a way for “men” to come over and take control of women. yeah, thats why trans women are even MORE oppressed than Cis women. after all we are “men” who “demoted” ourselves to the weaker sex, right? who would do that? but trans MEN are usually far less because they are seen as “bettering” themselves by trying to be MEN.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Ah, I see. Troll = “someone who doesn’t agree with everything I say”. How very tiresome of you.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Pardon me for butting in, but FF is NOT a troll. He’s not even trying to wind you up. He is, I think, pointing out the inconsistency of your position – in that you are using some of the same rhetorical devices and assumptions that you ascribe to JB. You are also second guessing FF’s motives (he must be a liar…) instead of addressing his point. Do you actually like being on the ‘victim’ side of the debate, or do you ever try to find some common ground?
      - James Pugilist
        
        Stop calling people Troll, really doing urself no favours
      - marti386
        
        If you can’t look at Burchill’s pieces on trans women, and NOT admit she goes WAY beyond being “gender critical” into some really nasty places, then you’re either a liar or you’re a liar.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Yes, she goes beyond being “gender critical”.
        
        And?
      - marti386
        
        AND it’s kinda hard for her to write about how she’s being picked on when she going out of her way to be so nasty.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        ‘A big girl did it and ran away…’
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Vicious cycle – a rabble descended on her friend and called her things like “cis bitch” while issuing death threats. She wrote an angry polemic, at the invitation of the Observer editor, in response. The rabble then descended on that and the craven editor caved in and removed it. She’s justifiably angry about that. A little context might help here
      - James Pugilist
        
        Get over it , ffs
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        terf, hag, bigot…
      - Ridcully
        
        “…I would expect a woman to be more caring than a man,etc.”
        Oh well, better resign my nursing job then.
      - James Pugilist
        
        be careful, its you that sounds bitter , i wouldn’t be be bitter enough to call you a hag though
- marti386
  
  “The trans people and their supporters here might care to ask themselves why they gather en masse to monster a woman journalist in a way they never do to male journalists.”
  
  Ummmm, HELLO? Piers Morgan?
  - Flaming Fairy
    
    The exception that proves the rule.
    - Terri Tg
      
      but he is NOT the exception. if someone is this vulgar etc, they deserve to be treated as such. end of story, male, female, intersexed what have you. color is not the issue, age is not the issue, nor is sex/gender, people like her dont deserve common decency because they refuse to give it to others in like. simple, treat others as you want to be treated. she treats others like crap, she is reaping what she sowed.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        And do you not think the trans activist bully crowd who gang up on people on Twitter and on threads like this aren’t “reaping what they sow” too when they get invective like this directed at them?
        
        No, I suspect that’s “different”, right?
        
        All you’re achieving with this kind of bullying is to create a big huge exclusion zone around yourselves. This means nobody will go anywhere near anything to do with trans people, which given the very real problems trans people face is a real own goal.
      - marti386
        
        Ummm, sorry. But pointing out the flawed thinking of trans ignorant people who post blazingly misinformed opinions on trans people’s lives is not “bullying”.
        
        You guys are gonna have to come up with a better defense.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        “You guys” eh? What “guys” do you think I’m with here?
        
        Descending en masse to shout and denounce and wag fingers and use words like “hag” and try and close down any debate with shrieking accusations of this or that ism or phobia is just bullying. It’s been bad enough on this thread; it was even worse when Suzanne Moore was getting called a “cis bitch” on Twitter and being issued with death threats.
      - marti386
        
        “”You guys” eh? What “guys” do you think I’m with here?”
        
        Well, obviously that would be people like yourself who thinks he has a right to tell trans people who they should or shouldn’t be mad at.
        
        Obviously.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Where have I done that?
        
        Nowhere.
        
        Try again.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Do read FF’s last post again (‘You guys’). I think it has some salutary advice for trans campaigners
      - James Pugilist
        
        having a debate is different to making deaths threats and abuse, that is bullying, not that it’d bother me, let anyone try and bully me lol
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        For the sake of debate, have you ever tried to take the heat out of the argument and put persistent questions about the key point at issue? You can often diffuse a polemic, but not by using its rhetorical devices. I think that trans people are reluctant to accept that their position strikes most people as extremely odd; if your response to this is name-calling, or even worse poor-me factoids about the oppression of trans lives, the argument goes nowhere.
    - Friesjones
      
      Um, hello? Dan Savage.
- Aura Willow Hazel
  
  actually I speak out when mle journalists and the mediua spout trans hating manure too, just bindel, burchill and a handful of othersw seem to do it so often I view them in the same way I view westboro.k
- Friesjones
  
  You mean like Dan Savage or Piers Morgan?
  - Flaming Fairy
    
    The worst harassment is reserved for women. And what innocuous remark did either of these make for the hordes of miffed MTFs to descend on them?
    - Friesjones
      
      Histrionic much? Someone tweeting “Get it the ____ together” is a declaration of war, a couple dozen (at most) trans women tweeting in solidarity are suddenly “hordes” that are “descending” on people who make “innocuous remarks.”
      
      I haven’t seen such lopsided framing since the housing contractor left his tape measure at home.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        “a declaration of war” – histrionic much?
        
        Take a deep breath in, hold and release slowly. Out with anger, in with love.
        
        Blessed be
      - Friesjones
        
        Oh no, a horde of “you people” just descended upon me for making an innocuous comment! I’m being monstered by you and your friends, en masse! Help help, I’m being repressed!
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Sarcasm.
        
        Is that the best you can do, pal?
      - Friesjones
        
        “Take a deep breath in, hold and release slowly. Out with anger, in with love.
        
        Blessed be”
        
        “Sarcasm.
        
        Is that the best you can do, pal?”
        
        Irony.
        
        Is that the best you can do, Babycakes?
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        I wasn’t being sarcastic, dear, I was offering a helpful suggestion because you’re going to burst something vital, getting yourself all het-up like that.
      - Friesjones
        
        Sarcastiball has you in its grip. That’s just GREAT.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Nope, not sarcastic at all. I am genuinely concerned about your blood pressure
- Bram
  
  Indeed. Leave that point just there. Exactly where it belongs. In the bin.
OtherBecky

Yes, we all know that trans* women, women of color, women with disabilities, etc., have all the same problems as white able-bodied cisgender women, which definitely makes those problems the only ones worth talking about, advocating about, or, y’know, acknowledging the existence of.

Speaking as a white cisgender woman, thanks for writing this. There are so many feminist writers on the internet, and being able to cross one off of my “possibly worth reading” list and add her to my “self-centered, lacking in empathy; do not read” list frees up valuable time and attention.
Terri Tg

no her “crime” was being a bitter old hag who cant stand that someone who was not born to the “privileged” status of Cis-Woman looks better than she does, and probably has a better personality to boot.

and please check your facts as the NHS ONLY pays (to my knowledge and i know several there who are in this situation) for HRT, therapy and the GRS/SRS/SCS or whatever the docs are calling it these days. no boob jobs, no facial surgery, etc. Please correct me if i am wrong, but if so there are a lot of MY sisters over there that have been shortchanged by your NHS.

and yes every, EVERY transwoman i know would KILL to have to go through the harsh reality of “that veritable cornucopian horn of plenty which we lucky breed fortunate enough to be born to a sensory smorgasbord of periods, PMT, the menopause, HRT and being bothered ceaselessly for sex by random male strangers since puberty take such flagrant delight in revelling in”, and your other comments (IE seat sniffers, born female, etc , just go to show your hate and ignorance on this issue)

all of this adds up to the two of you just being bitter old hags that are TERF’s (incase you are NOT as “educated beyond all instinct and honesty” that stands for Trans EXCLUSIONARY Radical Feminism).
- Flaming Fairy
  
  bitter old hag
  
  Lovely misogyny there
  - Terri Tg
    
    no misogyny, if you act like it, be proud of it. why else would someone compare all trans women a “brazilian transsexual” as the “perfect” female body. if her body is “perfect” yes just like ALL women, she worked at it, or had help. no one gets or maintains a body like that without work. you seem to be just as bad with your picture and screen name. Most of us just want to be OURSELVES, the real “US” we are meant to be, not some caricature such as you are using, why do you think so many of us attempt (and too many succeed) suicide. we are treated like this by lots of people, disowned by friends and family, lose jobs, yes we are SOOOOOO totally privileged.
    - Flaming Fairy
      
      Hag is a gender-specific insult. You are an ageist and a misogynist. I never said you were “privileged” so please stop having an argument with someone who isn’t me but directing it at me.
      
      You might want to reflect on why you and the rest of the intersectionalistas are increasingly being seen as little more than a gang of shouty, self-pitying bullies
      - Terri Tg
        
        well one, please learn english, it is hard to follow sometimes.
        
        secondly, she IS a women, and it WAS meant as gender specific. that is the way she is acting, a hag. sad, but true. SHE said we were privileged, i was referencing that as why she is a hag, and it wasnt “ageist or misogynistic”.
        
        i am one of a very rare breed, christian, and conservative in a lot of beliefs, but independent as in i DONT tow the party line, or believe what the preacher says despite what i can read for myself. church was actually a reason i repressed my “issues” (from molestation to trans), so i have a very good reason to hate religion, i dont, i blame the ones who taught me those things, because they are NOT in the bible.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        I’m writing perfectly good English (with appropriate capitalisation and punctuation, I might add – just sayin…)
  - Friesjones
    
    And I loved (times negative one) the way Burchill’s article above referred to trans women as “dicks in chick’s clothing.” Sauce for the wretched bad-tempered goose…
    - Flaming Fairy
      
      Behave like dicks, get called dicks. Simple as that.
      - Friesjones
        
        Gossip like a bitter old hag, get called a bitter old hag, simple as that. Don’t expect that you can hold us to a higher standard than our detractors, those weak tactics won’t silence us any longer now that we’ve begun liberating ourselves from your double standards and Doublethink.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        I don’t have double standards. If you act like a misogynist arsehole, I will call you one, no matter if your name’s Len or Loretta.
      - Friesjones
        
        While gleefully using transphobic terms as insults the entire while. Hence the (accurate) use of the term “double standards” to describe your privileged expectations here.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Please point to the “transphobic insults” I have used. Arsehole? Dick? Prick? Earth calling you: these are insults I would use for ANYBODY, trans or not trans. OK, hunty?
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Oh, and “privileged”? Yes, a lifetime of being called out in the street, labelled homo and bender and poof and having my life and my relationships considered second class has made me really “privileged”.
      - Friesjones
        
        Yeah, privileged. You’re a white man, who doesn’t hate his own dick. Those are three things you have going for you. And complaining to a trans woman about how your relationships are considered by straight people is sort of like complaining to Oscar Pistorius that your feet ache.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        How do you know I’m white? You don’t. How do you know how I feel about my dick? You don’t. You don’t know if I’m disabled or not, you don’t know if I have a mental health problem or not, so you don’t know pretty much anything about me or how “privileged” or otherwise I am. You have just decided that not being trans = being “privileged” and flapped your gums accordingly
        
        And, dear, I’m not complaining to you about how my relationships are viewed by homophobes, I’m pointing out to you how your description of me being “privileged” was just bullshit. Reading and comprehending make for less self-embarrassment when responding. Another suggestion you might find helpful there,
      - Friesjones
        
        So a person who comes out as trans, in your uninformed opinion, is NOT less privileged than the exact same person right before they come out as trans? And I made the assumption that you were white by looking at your profile picture, isn’t that you? My profile pic is an actual picture of an actual wall in my actual home, isn’t your profile pic an actual picture of your actual face in an actual Dynel wig? :p
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        1) I made no statement about the privileged or non-privileged status of trans people so here you are again, having an argument with someone who isn’t here. I talked only about myself and about how your description of me as “privileged” was bullshit
        
        2) No, my userpic is not me. Welcome to the internet, you seem to be a little confused about how it works. And yes, that’s sarcasm.
      - Friesjones
        
        Have we just crossed over the border into Stupidland here? THE ARTICLE UP ABOVE THAT YOU’RE DEFENDING WAS ABOUT INTERSECTIONAL PRIVILEGE.
        
        So do you have permission from the DQ whose picture that is to use it as your Disqus avatar? Or, as they’ve said on the Internet since before there was a Web, did you steal that picture?
        
        Why am I reading and responding to you if you’re just another Internet phony baloney? Begone from mine sight, O nebulous troll of ones and zeros.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        I fail to see the relevance of your first all-caps shouty rant, so I’ll just waft it aside as if you’d farted or something. Wouldn’t want to embarrass you by drawing attention to it.
        
        No, I didn’t ask permission to use this picture. It was taken in the 80s and posted to a Facebook group about gay London in the 80s and 90s. Nobody seemed to know who the man was and indeed he could well be dead due to a certain plague that attacked my community back then and continues to blight it now. But that’s just another of my “privileges” I guess, right?
        
        But it seems you are not equipped for adult conversation so cheerio, my little trans sista.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Oh and just to remind you – you’ve yet to point to the “transphobic insults” I’ve used. Whenever you’re ready, duckie.
      - Friesjones
        
        Describing a handful of tweets as evidence of a “horde” that “descended upon” someone for “innocuous comments” is pretty much the same stripe of ‘phobic tactics that accusing gay men of having “the homosexual agenda” was back in those Eighties you claim to know about (but which I lived through). I used to donate blood at the Irwin Memorial Blood Bank and had to quit in ’84 because I was as queer as a three dollar bill. I don’t remember YOU from the parties in the Castro.
        
        Anyway, I mean it, buzz off, you aren’t real enough to be worth any more of my attention. My time would be better spent getting through some of that backlog on my DVR. :p
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        So basically, you can’t back up your claim that I posted transphobic insults and have had to stretch and pretzel logic to try and label me in that way
        
        And stop insinuating I’m lying, dear, it makes you look even more demented than you clearly are. Bye for now, have a lovely day and see if you can’t unwedge that pantihose sometime soon.
- La Fold
  
  Is that all they ( and by that you mean myself anf fellow tax payers) pay for? All this while Scotland had to its shame only 12 Epilpesy specilaist Nurses?
  - Terri Tg
    
    well i do pay taxes, but i am across the pond as you say over there. i dont get free health care, and most health care does NOT cover what it does in the UK, lucky if they will cover HRT or therapy. I have no healthcare, i pay out of pocket for everything, and i am NOT middle class in income. yes it is a shame if that is all they have for those specialty nurses. how many do they have for sex changes? is that what you are comparing it to? if so please provide that info. it is an essential treatment for this condition, that is why it is covered. even here, they are admitting, after only 30 years, that the SRS was NOT being covered based on a bad decision using tilted information and studies designed (or picked) to show that it WASNT essential. it is now being looked at again for medicare, which only covers those over the age of 65. but if they do, then the insurance companies here are more likely to offer it, or suffer lawsuits. they can increase premiums, etc just offer the coverage. some companies actually do on their standard plans, and that is great, but not many.
    
    so if your first comment “and by that you mean myself and fellow taxpayers” please look at these people, most of them work, or do until they lose it because of their condition, over there women like us have more protections against it, but there are ALWAYS ways around it. its not like we are sitting around doing nothing, living off the “dole”, etc. the typical Trans person is usually pretty driven as they put their frustration, angst, fear, and yes hate (of what they are, not being what they should be) etc into the career. some focus on “being a REAL man/woman”. so please remove snide remarks, if that was its intent, until you have the real facts. or should we remove anyone who ISNT paying taxes from the NHS? including your kids (if you have any younger children that is)? etc.
    - La Fold
      
      First of all lets get it straight. My point about taxpayers
      is to not a dig at anybody, I was bouncing about techno clubs in east berlin for years and have met many a transgender punter and they were mostly pretty
      sound in general. I was pointing out a common held misconception about the NHS.
      
      Just because its free at point of use does not mean it is
      free, it is paid for through National Insurance contributions/ The NHS does not pay for anything, those who contribute to it to.
      
      And what happens when you nationalise something? You have to ration it. Basic economic fact. Therefore we have to make decisions on what procedures the resources should be expended on.
      
      We have to make decisions between breast augmentation and feminising facial surgery for transgendered people or for chemotherapy or
      cancer drugs or heart surgeries etc. So in your point regarding people who don’t pay taxes shouldn’t get treated by the NHS such as children is simply fatuous.
      
      Secondly your points regarding the lack of treatments for people wanting to have gender reassignment or a diagnosed with Gender dysphoria are simply not true. Obviously as you are in North America im guessing your
      experience of the NHS may be somewhat limited.
      As with most NHS services it all depends on where in the country you are. For example they will be more NHS gender reassignment clinics in the London area than they will be in the an old Northern mill town. Also the
      funding between health boards can drastically differ so depending where you live the options may be limited for you.
      
      However the NHS does and has provided not only Gender reassignment surgery and HRT but also mental health therapy and long term monitoring, speech therapy but also breast augmentation, facial surgery, vocal chord shaving ops and a myriad of other post op support services.
      
      Many complaints from those seeking trans gender surgery seem to be of the quality of service, time for diagnosis and length of waiting times, however these are concerns many people have with the NHS, such as myself who have Epilepsy.
      
      A simple google search for NHS transgender clinics shows up 8 in England alone. That’s almost as many clinics as they are nurses for epilepsy in the whole of Scotland, the most common neurological condition in
      the world which effects around one in 200 people. Also the occurrences of suicide are much higher in those with the condition than the general population too.
      
      We also face discrimination in the work place and in the
      wider community however we don’t have a vociferous lobby like the LGBT one (admittedly if we want one we should form one ourselves). Also its not a glamourous cause, politicians and social commentators (Such as Paris Lees) wont score as many points taking to the streets to shout in faux victimhood outrage as they continue to wear their identity around their necks like albatrosses.
  - Terri Tg
    
    also do you KNOW what has to be done in order to do this?
    
    you have to go through therapy for whatever length of time until the FIRST therapist thinks you are for real (this is because in the past, several who were NOT trans, but had deluded themselves and their doctors otherwise, got the surgery, and figured out they werent AFTER), then you have to live as the sex you are REALLY in what they call a “real life test”, so you have to live for at LEAST a year, looking and acting (but NOT being treated usually) as that sex, but all your documents say exactly the OPPOSITE so if you leave the country, etc you can have lots of issues, even if just the humiliation of someone putting it out in public at the customs, etc., then you have to see a SECOND therapist and prove to them, then and ONLY then you can get on the waiting list for it, so it might be minimum of 2 years to as many as 5 or more before you get this done. yes it is a REAL privilege they get such preferential treatment right? that is why any that have the means to do it, go to thailand and get the op, instead of having to wait for lord knows how long and get it free. it is THAT important to us to be WHOLE/RIGHT, even if we waited and used that money on our “major beautification operations” instead of the “free surgery”, most choose to pay for the surgery to be right NOW.
    - La Fold
      
      What is with ALL the CAPITALISATION?
      So the path to being GETTING a free (only at the point of use) reassignment SURGERY isnt easy? Show me MANY things in life which ARE? YOU seem to be GETTING very Angry at ME cause I have shown YOU the REASON WHY the NHS is not probably great for Transgender therapy..
      I have a nightmare getting travel insurance because of my condition, or health insurance for that matter. I am discriminated in my line of work because im pretty much de facto banned from setting foot on an oil rig because of my illness, which has seriously affecting my career, hitting a glass ceiling. I have been called many a name due to an illness i didnt want or ask for either.
      Dnt try and play victimhood poker with me treacle, cause at least there is a cure for you, you can feel right by flying to thailand for an operation. If I and other people who have the same illness as me could do that we’d do it in a heart beat.
FeministaJones

” In reality, it seeks to make a manifesto out of the nastiest bits of Mean Girls, wherein non-white feminists especially are encouraged to bypass the obvious task of tackling the patriarchy’s power in favour of bitching about white women’s perceived privilege in terms of hair texture and body shape.”

Who are you writing about?

Care to name names?

You’re so…vague here. I’m interested in with whom, specifically, you’re finding fault. Who are these non-White mean girls that so very much terrify you?
daisylee

There’s a lot I could say here, but I’ll just respond to one specific point—the idea that non-white feminists are not being consistent enough in what they are asking for from mainstream, white, middle-class feminism. This quote in particular stands out to me:

“The supreme irony of intersectionality is that it both barracks ‘traditional’ feminists for ignoring the issues of differently abled and differently ethnic women while at the same time telling them they have no right to discuss them because they don’t understand them — a veritable Pushmi-Pullyu of a political movement.”

The problem here is that you’re suggesting that there are only two options: (1) that mainstream feminists ignore non-mainstream feminists’ concerns and issues, (2) that mainstream feminists discuss non-mainstream feminists’ concerns, and asking WELL WHICH ONE DO YOU WANT ALREADY? But, what marginalized groups are asking for is a third option: (3) non-mainstream feminists get a seat at the table (i.e. they are included in academic feminism and in popular feminist media), and get to discuss their own concerns in their own voices. A very reasonable request, no? You’re painting this as a ridiculous, impossible, contradictory standard, but it’s really not.

And, it’s telling that in the only two options that you can imagine, white, middle-class, mainstream feminists are the ones having the conversation.
- marti386
  
  Exactly. The third option is that Cis, white, middle class feminists could try shutting the fuck up about things like trans women, women of color, poor women and disabled women, and LISTEN to us, instead of simply dismissing our concerns all the time.
  
  NOT hard at all, actually.
  - geoffmack
    
    Why, aren’t they entitled to their views? What about rich white men, poor black women? How does one acquire your approval to express their views without you judging them based on an irrelevant characteristic?
    - marti386
      
      Dude, if you don’t know that feminism has been horrendously cis, white, middle class focused for decades, then you REALLY shouldn’t be voicing opinions on it.
      - geoffmack
        
        Who are you to tell me what *I* can express an opinion on?
        
        You strike me as a nasty bigot who is ready to judge and shout at anyone who holds a slightly contrary view to yours.
        
        You aren’t asking for equality – you’re demanding other people are treated less well than you want to be treated.
        
        Never going to happen.
      - marti386
        
        “Who are you to tell me what *I* can express an opinion on?”
        
        Having an opinion is only something you can really have if you know what your talking about. Otherwise all you have is an uninformed opinion.
        
        I’ve got an idea. How about you actually do some research BEFORE you open your mouth? You might seem less like an ass.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Can’t I have an uninformed opinion?
        Are you sure that all your opinions are well-founded?
        The trans domination of feminism is easy to explain without conspiracy theory. It’s like the domination of Icelandic politics by white people
      - Friesjones
        
        Of course you can have an uninformed opinion, and expect that it will be listened to. That’s sort of an essential part of being relatively privileged over the people who hold INFORMED opinions on the topic, and is pretty much the expected default behavior of clueless privileged people wherever they are found.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        I’m talking about democracy, not privilege. You can’t restrict debate to experts, partly because they don’t all agree, and secondly because we only find a common position in the course of an argument. I think you must agree with this, otherwise you woulnd’t bother posting on websites.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        No, you can’t because, quite frankly as Marti says, it’ll make you look like an ass…
      - James Pugilist
        
        Grow up
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        I think you’re an ass.
        
        This thread is ass.
        
        The subject matter is ass.
        
        The progressive bi-curious homosexual not too sure ‘white hispanic’ ‘British Jihadist’ left wingers that have frequented this article really are a joy to behold in all their vile ugliness.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        “Having an opinion is only something you can really have if you know what your talking about. ”
        
        This is something you really could with following, eh Mr RACIST.
  - Jeffrey Vernon
    
    I’ll listen, but mostly all I hear is namecalling, grievances and personal histories. These matter to you, but not to any one else. Trans visibility needs some positive content beyond defensiveness and victimhood
  - James Pugilist
    
    Another valid point
  - Cyril Sneer
    
    Oh look everyone it is the anti-free speech ‘progressive’.
Lindsey Weedston

Dear Julie Burchill. You need to stop times a billion. Signed, a cishet white feminist.

Dear other cishet white feminists. We need to do a lot more to fight against racism, cissexism, heterosexism, and ableism within our community. And also internalized misogyny (using the word “bitching,” really???) Signed, someone who just read the above pile of word garbage.
- marti386
  
  As a trans woman, let me say I would just like to hug you times a billion. 🙂
  
  PLEASE, cis women feminists. We need you to speak out against this kind of stuff. We can’t stop it without your help.
  - geoffmack
    
    What gives you ANY right to label women as “cis”?
    - marti386
      
      Just to point it out Geoff, trans people didn’t invent the word “cis”. the term “cis was invented by German sexologist Volkmar Sigusch in 1998 (and he was a cis dude). It was made by cis people, just like the term “trans” was made by cis people.
      
      So how about you cis folk STOP pretending trans people made it up to hurt your fee-fees?
      
      The joke is you’ve all been using “trans” (and more slur-tasic versions of it) for decades and never stood up for us. But the moment cis starts becoming a widely used term, you all have a collective cow.
      
      Here’s the thing. You CAN’T label us “trans” WITHOUT labeling yourself “cis”. The two go together like ham and eggs.
      - geoffmack
        
        Tired old argument, i’ll stick to male and female thanks.
        
        When you learn to converse like an adult without making misrepresentations about what people are saying and why I might consider interacting with you further.
        
        I get the impression the devil will using skates to get to work before that happens though.
      - marti386
        
        “Tired old argument, i’ll stick to male and female thanks.”
        
        Works for me. I’m female.
      - geoffmack
        
        See, that makes more sense. I don’t mean to diminish how tough it must be to go through the transgender “route” but ultimately, if you’re a woman you’re a woman. I have no issue with that.
        
        I understand it must be “easier” in a sense for someone to be born a woman in a woman’s body but that isn’t a reason in my view to define separately.
      - marti386
        
        “I don’t mean to diminish how tough it must be to go through the transgender “route” but ultimately, if you’re a woman you’re a woman. I have no issue with that.”
        
        I appreciate that thought, Geoff. But unfortunately, radical feminists have a LONG history of trying to deny me that right. Seriously, I could tell you stories that would turn your hair white.
        
        I guess the reason trans people always seem defensive, is because we HAVE to be on the defensive. Because there’s always cis feminists who feel they have a right to “critique” my life and identity.
      - geoffmack
        
        To an extent i understand that but some people always look for a reason to treat others badly. I find it is best to exclude those people from my life and not care what they think.
        
        Personally, I would seek to educate those who are prepared to listen and let the dinosaurs with issues die off.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Said the anti-white racist.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Said the racist..
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        not sure if trolling, or genuinely believes this reverse racism crock.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        You didn’t make it up, but you use the term to mark boundaries. It’s self-defeating. If I always addressed my audience as trans gay gentile women, I wouldn’t get a hearing as a cis straight jewish male.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Said the racist.
    - Cyril Sneer
      
      ‘He’ is a progressive, they like to apply labels to everything, so that they can understand the world in simple black & white terms because they are very very simple people.
- Alexandrovich
  
  “You need to stop times a billion.”
  FFS!
gerardharbison

Do you pronounce cishet as ‘sis-het’? Or as ‘sish-et’? Or maybe ‘kish-et’?

I like to get these details correct.
- gerardharbison
  
  Actually, come to think of it, cishet has mixed roots, hasn’t it? Ick.
  - Jeffrey Vernon
    
    Yes, it has. I propose that all words previously prefixed with hetero- and homo- immediately change them for alter- and idem-
    
    Now you have cisalter, transidem and so on.
Tamlyn Ailsa MacPherson

aaaaand a Trans blogger’s response…

http://tamlynmac.tumblr.com/post/77290646020/sorry-julie-but-i-really-think-you-should-double-check
- geoffmack
  
  Err, “a blogger’s response”
  
  I don’t feel the need to tell everyone my gender, sexuality, ethnicity and other demographics when trying to make a point.
  
  Do you think inserting the word “trans” gives the offsite commentary more weight? Do you think it should?
  
  No.
  - Tamlyn Ailsa MacPherson
    
    because it is an article about trans perceptions and attitudes towards, and I am offering the opposite side from a TRANS perspective… coz you know, we have opinions, and feelings and stuff.
    - geoffmack
      
      But it isn’t “just” about that – its about the broader behaviour of the left to try and outdo each other with why they’re discriminated against and rank the seriousness depending on various characteristics.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        It’s not even especially left; left-over would be closer to the mark. This shopping list of oppressed groups has been growing since the collapse of municipal socialism in the 80s. Look! The town halls are closing down! Better get our own bids for recognition in fast! Notions of class as the vehicle of change have turned into grievances and squabbling over resources (including air time).
      - geoffmack
        
        “Don’t you DARE treat us differently”
        
        “Don’t you DARE overlook my group of people”
        
        Its like a group mental illness. I’ve no time for it.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Yes, the politics of fault-finding and injustice collecting. It used to be called persecution mania, but now everyone is doing it – and as you point out, it leads to contradictions: I insist on my difference! I insist on my inclusion!
    - Alexandrovich
      
      ” coz you know, we have opinions, and feelings and stuff.”
      And don’t we know it. Perhaps if you spent less time genital-gazing or took your head out of your backside you could then try making the best of a bad job.
  - Friesjones
    
    Way to try to erase evidence of trans people in the public sphere. You sound EXACTLY like one of those straight dudes who gripes about public figures coming out as gay because you don’t want to hear about that shiz.
    - geoffmack
      
      I am – because I don’t give the tiniest s*** about other peoples sexuality. It is not my business just as mine is not theirs!
      
      I take your comment as being a great example of what this article was about.
      - Friesjones
        
        That “I don’t give a **** about other people’s sexuality” line is the clarion call of the closet case. I bet you’ve been in that closet so long that they send your mail to Narnia.
      - geoffmack
        
        Why should anyone care about another persons sexuality?
        
        You are seriously warped if you can’t accept that simple premise.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        I agree with geoffmack. The assumption that our private lives are public affairs is wholly mistaken in my view. However, his original point was the contradiction in demanding acceptance, while over-reacting to criticism, and then insisting on difference: ‘you can’t criticise me because your cis mindset just doesn’t understand.’
      - Friesjones
        
        If your private life and your public life get all mixed up, is that your fault? For example, same-sex marriage is a place where some people get their private life and their public life entangled. Should the str8 people tell gay men and lesbians not to get married because that’s putting their homosexuality into the public sphere? Should you not make a public issue out of same sex marriage because that way you out yourself and open yourself up to slurs and judgements about your “lifestyle” from str8 people? Or is that closet you’re advocating just for trans women?
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Your point would have force if all gays were forced into confessing on line and then entering into gay marriage. If we choose to make a public display of our private lives, well and good. If we don’t, it’s nobody’s business. Nice joke about Narnia, by the way.
      - Friesjones
        
        Right, folks can stay in that closet and laugh when their straight friends make gay jokes and they can even vote for political candidates who they know despise them. People have the right to be a self-hating closet case if that’s what they want. But why should I give the opinions of such cowards so much as a moment’s heed?
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        You shouldn’t. They want to remain private. When did privacy become self-hatred? (Answer: when Facebook started, I suppose…)
      - Friesjones
        
        In the case of gay & lesbian rights, the closet has always been a place of self-loathing. It leads to people like George Rekers.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Hmm. Well, if you’re a fundamentalist, nothing I say will change your mind. I don’t know who George Rekers is, and I doubt that one single example will persuade me that all our intimate thoughts and deeds are other peoples’ business.
- Evert
  
  Needs less racism.
- marti386
  
  Excellent article! 😀
mutterhals

YAAAASSSS!!!!
parkwood1920

This whole wall o’ text is pure misogynist tripe, from someone calling themselves a “militant feminist.” “Bitching?” “Screaming, squawking, grievance-hawking,” seriously Burchill? Are you a lad’s mag troll or what?

I wouldn’t worry about trans* women or women of color destroying feminism—white cis bigots like Julie Burchill here seem to be accomplishing that feat all by their lonesome.
Raw England

The Left, the feminists and ethnic immigrants are collectively turning this world into a puddle of shit, piss and vomit.
- global city
  
  as is intended.
  - Raw England
    
    Indeed, my friend. Indeed.
- Livia Rose
  
  Who is immigrating to the world?
  - Terri Tg
    
    all those martians and venusians i guess.
  - cyrusthevirus
    
    You should ask who is Emigrating to Europe silly silly girl!
  - James Pugilist
    
    Your photo gives me the willys
    - Livia Rose
      
      I’m so glad you only think about the outside of books!!!!!
- cyrusthevirus
  
  Well said !!I was wading through the drivel and at each post wondered-Do these stupid women actually understand what is going to happen in the next decade or so??Dont the self obsessed morons recognise that little fun belief of Islam?All their -isms and phobias!!Ah bless!How about Sharia law and Jihad by rape!FGM, honour killings ,forced marriage and selective abortions -charming cultural idiosyncracies arent they?Ignore them and blame everything on white men(like Millwall nobody likes us and we used to care!) They have alienated the only people who would support them -Yes dearies White men because no-one else does !
- Terri Tg
  
  i think that there are people on ALL sides of the political spectrum who have a hand in what you are talking about. greed of extreme capitalists (those that dont care about anything except making money, pollution, employees, etc are just tools, and no responsibility) but far left socialist have similar ideas that are bad for the world as a whole.
Liberty

It sounds good to work for equality, fairness, against tthe powerful elite, the rich, etc but once you succeed – and get your people into power – what happens? They become pigs!! People like you should read Animal Farm over, and over, and over again and read it again whenever the socialst red mist falls.
Raw England

We Whites are a small ethnic minority in the global context; we’re surrounded by rather aggressive immigrants, who have swamped/deaded our lands; we’re in austerity; we’re due to be demographically dominated by immigrants.

Yes. Very privileged, aren’t we.
- marti386
  
  Oh, look everybody. The class that ruled everybody for centuries is complaining because they now have slightly less control.
  
  BOO HOO.
  - cyrusthevirus
    
    What class is that??Since when is White a class??And I assume you accept the point being made?And you obviously know little of history!
    - marti386
      
      “Since when is White a class??”
      White’s have been the controlling class for CENTURIES, dude.
      You can’t really be that ignorant, can you?
      - gerardharbison
        
        Proof by repeating the same thing over and over. I’m convinced.
      - marti386
        
        I’m sorry. It must have been some OTHER group of white people who owned slaves, and didn’t let people of color use the “white only” restrooms until the 60’s.
      - gerardharbison
        
        Gawrsh, there’s more than one group of white people? Do go on!
      - marti386
        
        YES, white people come in various types.
        
        NO, that doesn’t disprove the fact that white people as a whole have a history of oppressing people that aren’t white.
        
        Stop playing games. You know what I’m talking about.
      - gerardharbison
        
        No, I don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Furthermore, I don’t think you have a clue what you’re talking about. I think you’re parroting a ridiculous and indefensible theory of racial guilt that you don’t understand even as well as the charlatans that constructed it.
        
        We’ve already established you know no history. You’re now telling me a nation of people who have had no history of slaveholding (for about 15 centuries; they probably held other Europeans as slaves c. 500 CE), and a significant history of being enslaved, are in fact oppressors, merely because of their skin pigmentation. It boggles the mind someone could type that with a straight face. And it is odiously racist.
        
        Not that, say, the modern British have any culpability for the Atlantic slave trade either.
        
        ‘White people as a whole’. What does that mean?
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Marti386 is clearly racist to the core.
      - La Fold
        
        Complete shoe makers!
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Marti, you got schooled, you got spanked, you’ve been shown up for the confused hateful racist little brainwashed know nothing you are.
      - La Fold
        
        Or the fact that it was white people, white Christian people at that, who forced the end of the universal institution of slavery which had existed since man
        could walk. (Archeological evidence proves that humans learnt to enslave each other before they domesticated animals).
        
        Who sold african slaves to the slave trade? That would be other Africans. Approx 11 million slaves crossed the Atlantic. Approx 14 milion were sent into Asia and
        the Ottoman empire, where many were brutalised through castration to be used as eunuchs. This was done by Ethiopians to circumvent the Islamic prohibition on castration. The Barbary Coast Corsairs carried their Jihad to the waves and raided for slaves all over southern europe and as far north as the Thames and
        Iceland. White Circassian women were routinely sold into sexual slavery in the Ottoman empire. The Ottoman empire resisted the end of slavery because it was
        so important to its economy that they feared riots if they ended it, hence they banned the slave trade but not slavery its self. The British fleet spent years
        trying to suppress the black market trade in Slaves in the eastern Mediterrean. The British Army fought battles in Africa to stop slavery. During the Armenian
        Genocide in the 20th century young Armenian girls were sold for pennies there were so many of them available. White slaves were being sold in Egyptian slave
        markets 40 years after the Emancipation proclamation. America was the only country to fight a civil war to end slavery.Brazil being one of the last to abolish it.
        
        Slavery wasn’t officially banned in Saudi Arabia until the 60s and the late 70’s in Zanzibar. Slavery still exists in parts of Africa today like the Sudan and in India too.
        
        I highly recommend Thomas Sowell’s writings on slavery to enlighten you.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        More ignorance I see.
      - La Fold
        
        That has to be the single most dumbest thing I have ever read, and this is the Spectator website!
        Go and read a book you moon raker!
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        This is the mind of the progressive.
        
        Ignorance and anti-white racist hatred is all they know.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        It is you that is ignorant.
        
        I despise you anti-white racists.
  - gerardharbison
    
    If only my ancestors had known, while they were starving on mouldy potatoes, that they were the ruling class! It would have made it all better.
    - marti386
      
      Sure they may have been starving. But they also had the right to own slaves.
      - gerardharbison
        
        BWAHAHAHA!
        
        Nobody in the British Empire in 1847 had the right to own slaves, idjit. Try opening a history book before you pontificate about history.
      - marti386
        
        Are you trying to claim you had no ancestors before 1847?
        
        Who is the “idjit”, again?
      - gerardharbison
        
        Not what you said, idjit. You said that they were starving, but had the right to own slaves.
        
        As a matter of fact, all the ancestors I can trace were Irish Catholics, who weren’t allowed to own property of ANY sort until the Papists Act of 1778. Evidence there were any African slaves at all in Ireland is weak, and if there were they were held by the Anglo-Irish ascendancy. And since the Papists Act postdated the Somersett case, which effectively abolished slavery in the United Kingdom, they could not have owned slaves .
        
        There were, however, thousands of Irish held as slaves by the Barbary pirates. And tens of thousands of Irish were transported to the West Indies as slaves after Cromwell’s war.
      - Rob Harries
        
        and most peoples ancestors would probably include people people who were in effective slavery through indentured service in various places.
        
        You can always spot a hack whenever these lazy simplifications about ‘race’ and history surface. Doesn’t require much knowledge or analysis to throw them about but gives the impression of someone knowing what they are talking about.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Excellent comment, thanks Rob.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Another moronic comment from our resident cross dressing hate monger.
        
        Do you blame new born German babies for the murderous deeds of their great grandfathers?
      - La Fold
        
        Tripe!
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        What a moronic comment.
        
        Thanks to the freedoms in this country you were able to change gender and not be hung from a crane for it. Perhaps you should show some appreciation to the very country that has enabled you to live your life how you want. You are an ignorant of the highest order.
katy77

Cis means disgusting in Afrikaans. I live In South Africa so this bothers me a bit.
geoffmack

I note this article wasn’t just about trans issues but has been hijacked.

For me, it is one of the first times i’ve read the views of this self selected group who have appeared here and I have to say I’m appalled.

Apparently nobody else is entitled to view because everyone has privilege they don’t have.

Can honestly say my sympathies have utterly evaporated for people who behave in this way – I don’t care what your gender is but I do care that you take such a nasty and warped view on the rest of the world.
- marti386
  
  Geoff, you DO have privilege as a cis person. If you don’t know that, you’re just a fool.
  
  You don’t get beaten for being cis.
  
  You don’t get murdered for being cis.
  
  You don’t get fired from your job for being cis.
  
  You don’t get evicted from your home for being cis.
  
  But guess what, Geoff? That stuff happens to trans people ALL the time. For being trans.
  
  But you want to whine because people are calling you cis, and that’s an “insult”? What a cis privileged, thumb sucking man-child you are.
  
  You couldn’t last a day in a trans woman’s world.
  - geoffmack
    
    These things happen to everyone else every day too. People are treated badly in every walk of life.
    
    If you want to perpetuate the division and stand aside from the rest of society that is your right. Personally, I try to judge everyone on how i see them than a characteristic.
    
    I’m sure life isn’t easy for a trans person but I would strongly urge you not treat others with animosity as they probably don’t deserve it.
    - marti386
      
      “These things happen to everyone else every day too. People are treated badly in every walk of life.”
      
      Yes, Geoff. But those things DON’T happen to people for being cis.
      
      Thanks for proving you can’t deny that.
      
      ALSO, if you want trans people to not treat you with animosity, you could start by learning a few things about trans women, cis feminism, and the problems the two have, BEFORE you come into an article about it and offer up your opinion.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        They don’t invariably happen to you if you are trans, either. And in fact, if a man is murdered by his wife’s jealous ex, her was, arguably, murdered for being cis. The attempt to claim a CV of woes and oppressions will not advance your cause; it gives the impression of haplessness and grievance-collecting, yet more problems on top of your dysphoria, whereas the smart move would be to say ‘trans – yes we can’.
      - marti386
        
        “They don’t invariably happen to you if you are trans, either.”
        
        They happen to trans people more often than not, Jeff.
        And when they DO happen, they tend to happen BECAUSE we are trans.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        This is the kind of unverifiable assertion that gets you nowhere. It’s the ‘poor me’ claim that has held up other campaigns. No-one empathises with victims.
      - James Pugilist
        
        Fine, but murder and abuse of women happens because theyre women. END OFF !
      - Jackthesmilingblack
        
        OF
      - James Pugilist
        
        Singular f, still doesn’t change the fact that two women a week are murdered in the UK, that’s real women who are murdered for being women, get it, got it, good !
      - OfficialPro
        
        No, it happens because you are perceived as homosexual (confused with a gay male transvestite).
      - OfficialPro
        
        Marti doesn’t get that homophobia is what is feeding what happens to trans women.
      - Sarah Datblygu
        
        Yes Marti, but they do happen to you for being a woman. ‘Cis’ or otherwise.
      - marti386
        
        Of course it does. I never said it didn’t. But as a transgender women, I get it for being a woman, and I get it for being trans.
        
        DOUBLE jeopardy.
      - OfficialPro
        
        You get it because people think you are a gay male transvestite. It’s really just as simple as that. Homophobia. Occzam’s Razor.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        your pet theory ignores the fact aesexuals exist, I don’t fit your theory having zero interest in sexual activity whatsoever.
      - OfficialPro
        
        no, the non-cis woman gets it because she is perceived as a gay male transvestite trying to trick straight males. Even if she actually is attracted to women (Lesbians). Which, funnily enough, TERF lesbians accuse trans women of transitioning in order to “trick” lesbians into sleeping with “straight males”.
        
        Listen to a TERF talk about trans women long enough and you’d think you were listening to somebody from Focus on the Family…
      - James Pugilist
        
        Of course they happen because they’re women, what planet are you living on , check out the figures, they’re not killed or hurt because they’re not women ? wake the fuck up
      - OfficialPro
        
        they don’t happen to people for being non-cis either. They happen to people for being “gay” (whether or not they actually are); what’s important is that most “transphobes” are actually homophobes who are upset if the woman who got in their car to turn a trick also has not transitioned surgerywise (or has transitioned but it’s obvious) and they thought they were tricked by a “drag queen” (gay male transvestite).
    - Michelle-Louise Burrows
      
      If they treat transgender people with animosity, which is often the case, then they will get animosity back. And they do deserve it. You see, the majority of transgender people are neither ugly, fat, inbred, retarded, disease-ridden etc etc… Whereas nearly every transphobe IS…
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Well that’s helpful.
        
        (it’s not at all helpful)
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Prove it isn’t helpful.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Oh grow up.
      - James Pugilist
        
        Relly stupid comment, I know loads of ugly and fat Trans people, most em look like men but lets not be shallow
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Is that when you dress up of a weekend then that you see an ugly and fat transvestite?
      - James Pugilist
        
        Oh Shell , I bet ur a dead ringer for Cindy Crawford
      - Fergus Pickering
        
        What? All of these things at once?
      - geoffmack
        
        Funny that because I said nothing negative about transgender people but was insulted and spoken down to.
        
        So, kindly don’t pretend that transgender people are all innocent here.
        
        I may well understand the initial defensive position of those who’ve had a tough time but we are all individuals and if you’re going to introduce yourself by attacking others then you aren’t going to gain much support.
        
        Quite the opposite – being vicious in normal discourse will put peoples backs up and make your outcome of being treated with respect even less likely.
        
        So kindly, wind your neck in and stop throwing out insults to everyone who isn’t in your club!
  - Jeffrey Vernon
    
    And this is the stance that JB complains about; the air of superiority over the poor amputated cis folk who just don’t have what it takes to live in the real world. Born women are both defective, and at the same time privileged. So do you envy them or pity them?
    I am reminded of my middle class black colleague who thinks that all white people are privileged, irrespective of gender or class. The first TS I met (this is what she calls herself, by the way) is a Harley street physician, and doesn’t complain about being trans.
    - marti386
      
      ” So do you envy them or pity them?”
      Neither. I just wish they’d stop trying to define and enforce my identity for me.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Why do you even care?
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        because they use their influence to screw us over and eeny us human rights. Brennan tried to get trans people banned from a freaking hurricaine shelter for pities sake. When people deliberately out and sabotage a childs life as particular TERF’s have I tend to get upset. When they back spousal veto even more so.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        I seriously doubt they behave like a mason’s lodge or a ‘jewish conspiracy’. They’re simply not organised in that way. Your remedy is to protest each individual case, not to assume that ‘they’ are all dedicated to making your life a misery.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        find me a TERF who isn’t a complete and utter hateful bigot to transfolks and I’ll be more inclined to believe your opinion. For now seeing Burchill herself at demos where a cancer patient friend was being screamed at (the girl in question is 5 foot nothing pretty much) by a guy built like a freaking tank who she happily protests alongside despite him clearly being threatening and abusive towards women kinda makes it clear to me that she’s no feminist.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        My point was about conspiracy. The so-called TERFs don’t spend all their time obsessing about trans people and mobilising opposition to them.
        
        I don’t really understand the incident you’re describing; Burchill shouts at another woman so she’s not a feminist?
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        rean bugbrennan then gendertrender then go to pretendbians then tell me they aren’t attacking people. They accuse people of horrendous stuff without evidence, often stuff that has the potential to ruin the victims life.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        My point is conspiracy; groups of people plotting politically to make your life a misery, to the exclusion of any other activity. Gallus Mag has a bee in her bonnet and is tiresome to read, but the Gendertrender site is not an organisation, and I think its influence is probably slight. I think that transactivists have got to stop magnifying the importance of the hate sites, along with being less sensitive about language. Then perhaps the politics of transsexuality will become positive rather than reactive.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        name me one other minority for whom you’d claim they should stop bein concerned about hate sites, the sites in question have actively OUTTED people including in one case a CHILD. They have also perpetuated lies about community members and worked with a known NOM front group.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        I repeat, my point is *conspiracy*. My impression is that the hate sites are the private obsession of one or two individuals, not a vast confederation of terfs who lie awake at night planning new attacks on trans people. Actually, I would say that ALL minorities should ignore hate sites; because otherwise, their politics becomes purely reactive, and this gives the impression that there is no positive content to their campaign. I would not give these sites the oxygen of publicity; and I suspect that they are read more by trans people than by anyone else.
        
        Forgive my ignorance, but I don’t know what NOM is. If they’re a moral majority type organisation, it wouldn’t be the first time that feminists and reactionaries had teamed up (I’m thinking of Dworkin and religious fundamentalists)
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        ignoring them doesn’t work when they out us, collude with NOM front groups, and dispense lies and documents that lead to us LOSING rights.
      - James Pugilist
        
        You cant compare JB or J Bindel to Brennan, huge difference
      - James Pugilist
        
        Stop caring what they think, and making it the focus of ur life, sounding self obsessed and one dimensional, more to life
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        ok what else is there to do while healing from major surgery? Name me 1 productive activity I can do beyond the voluntary suicide prevention hotline stuff you can do while you have a catheter in, a drip attached, and are not allowed to leave your bed. Answers on a postcard please, I care what people think when they endanger my brothers and sisters. Cultivating an environment of hatred is one way they do that.
  - La Fold
    
    I once got in a fight in a cicra 1998, shame all that privilige i have didnt stop me getting 9 stitches in my face.
  - James Pugilist
    
    2 women a week are murdered in UK, domestic violence and common assault is a huge problem too, wake up
    - Aura Willow Hazel
      
      we get a similiar number of dead in a smaller population, so I’ll care about them too, I think BOTH issues are despicable.
  - OfficialPro
    
    Trans people are NOT beaten up/murdered/fired/evicted for “not being cis”.
    
    ALL those things happen because of HOMOPHOBIA!
    
    As in, they’re literally suffering all those things because the people inflicting it upon them have the false idea that trans women (who are attracted to men cis or otherwise) are gay men trying to trick straight men into sleeping with them. (Sorta like how TERFS think that lesbian Trans Women are straight men with a butch lesbian fetish who are trying to trick lesbians into accepting Peen (whether or not they actually have any) or trying to trick them into sleeping with a straight male.
    
    The average bigoted joe sixpack doesn’t have enough going on upstairs to think “i hate non cis people and want to kill them.” All they see when they see a non-passing trans woman, PARTICULARLY if the context of the encounter is the sex trade (trans woman prostitute) is “GAY MAN, TRYING TO TRICK ME, HE’LL TURN ME GAY, KILL KILL!” Most of these rednecks can’t distinguish between a drag queen and a geniunely trans woman.
- Michelle-Louise Burrows
  
  Only because the rest of the world takes a nasty and warped view on transgender people, which you have just demonstrated less than eloquently…
iamcuriousblue

“Here’s hoping that the in-fighting in-crowd of intersectionality disappear up their own intersection really soon, so the rest of us can resume creating a tolerant and united socialism.”

I’d *really* like to know how this squares with anything resembling a ‘tolerant socialism’:

“When the sex war is won prostitutes should be shot as collaborators for their terrible betrayal of all women, for the moral tarring and feathering they give indigenous women who have had the bad luck to live in what they make their humping ground.” – Julie Burchill “Born Again Cows” (1987)
Sara Robedee-Molino

Dear Madame,
I would be utterly surprised to find that you call yourself a feminist. Clearly your nostalgia does point to better days for some people like yourself; we’d probably all be better off if you had a husband telling you what to do, and you did just that so as not to upset him.
I find your language and discrimination appalling and loathsome, bilious and fetid waste gurgling up and out of the disemboweled belly of a decaying beast.
I will not generalize or commend any group of comments nor label any “group” of authors. Certainly all kinds of people can make rude comments when they feel the sting of someone else’s thoughtless words. I will keep it personal and call out shame on you for your filthy mouth! And shame on the toughtfulness you applied to you expression of your discrimination. I am calling you out as an individual in defense of the collective.
I sincerely hope you will soon be able to open your heart wider than your mouth and embrace others and their differences and try to see things from another perspective. Your world and what you experience in it can only get better and more beautiful and more filled with love if you could!
This I write as lovingly as possible from where I stand from my current state of evolution. Hopefully I’ll be able to be nicer next time, too.
- grutchyngfysch
  
  Dear “Ms.” surely?
  - Sara Robedee-Molino
    
    Indeed, I became overly sentimental and couldn’t resist the word, I stand corrected!
Rachel Saunders

I will just leave this here: http://www.pcc.org.uk/complaints/form.html – she’s breached section 4 i,iii and 12 of the code by rehashing the comments she made last year. Ultimately if you want to discuss intersectionally you should not bring slurs or pejorative comments to the table. I have no issue with an honest discussion, but ultimately Julie is not interested in honesty, more about throwing vitriol at anyone who crossed her path.
- Alexandrovich
  
  Probably my lack of empathy but, after reading all the comments, I feel like a shower. You lot make Mathew Hopkins look benign.
  - Rachel Saunders
    
    Fair enough, though I have not slung any arrows in anyone’s direction, more just find it offensive that someone who uses the term ‘dick in chicks clothing’ can actually get published by two mainstream media outlets with the same offensive pejoratives.
    - AndrewS
      
      But it was funny, if a bit cruel. The thing is that anyone who thinks they have a right not to be offended is a very big dick in my book. Also the transgendered community invite derision by insisting that everyone pretends that they have all changed their gender. I know (and every transgender person knows in their heart of hearts) that this is impossible. By all means go though the op (it takes huge courage, I’m sure) and also expect everyone to accept you as a person who has chosen a certain lifestyle that does no harm to others but don’t expect everyone to pretend that black is white just because it might hurt your feelings.
      - Rachel Saunders
        
        Its not about hurt feelings, courage, or that the comment was cruel. Its the fact that people use comments like that to prove their point. The English language has a bounteous lexicon to play with, why resort to name calling and pejoratives to make your point? If you want to be taken seriously in an argument don’t use a sweeping denigration as the crux of your argument.
        
        As far as the rest of your comment is concerned, that is why we get so touchy about this, as people see our choices as just that, choices. Rectifying our gender to become outwardly congruent to the one we are inside is not about playing make believe, but rather actually being real, whatever that is, to both ourselves and those around us.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Completely agree with your first para (though you might have to take ill-informed opinion on the chin – most people, like it or not, think that trans is an odd position to be in). The corollary of this is not to try and pay back in the same polemical coin. ANd not to take things so personally (JM’s original comment about Brazilians was not an incitement to mob violence against trans people, after all)
      - Rachel Saunders
        
        Exactly, I usually do take things on the chin, but this whole article feels like another attempt to incite vitriol for the sake of it. If it were any other minority group no mainstream publisher would dare print this type of article lest they get slapped down as being intolerant.
        
        For me personally I am a big enough person to let most things slide, but there are plenty of people out there who are afraid that these types of articles will incite real world bullying and harassment.
      - AndrewS
        
        I really wish we could see far more articles like this about every minority group. This ‘precious minority’ thing is indescribably offensive and dangerous.
      - Rachel Saunders
        
        If there is a frank and open discussion about a subject then I am all for it, but if it degenerates into a sticks and stones argument then what is the point? I would love to raise issue with the way certain groups get a free pass on certain issues just because the press is too afraid of critique for raising said issues.
        
        This article, on the other hand, is not about trans people getting precious, rather wanting to be treated fairly and even handedly. Let the Spectator print a reasoned response, with the right of reply, from a trans man or woman, and then we will see how precious we really are.
        
        Personally I am in favour of universal equal rights regardless of any hue of difference. We are all human, live under the same sun, and are headed the same way through space time. To paraphrase Orwell no-one is more equal than anyone else, and as a tran woman all I ask for is the same level of respect and dignity as the person next to me. Everyone in my life treats me fairly and equally, which makes me very fortunate, but there are plenty of people from all walks of life who face inequality in all forms. That is what needs to be addressed, not just the blatant vitriol in this piece.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Is it all vitriol? Is there not an honest core of truth in any part of it? The Spectator is a polemical magazine, and a calm statement about trans lives is not going to sell. But a slightly contrarian view from someone who says ‘look, I’m absolutely uninterested in trans-tribalism or victimhood, but I’m getting on with my life as well as I can, and this is what both sides ought to be arguing about instead’ might play.
      - AndrewS
        
        I couldn’t agree more – except perhaps for ‘if it degenerates into a sticks and stones argument then what’s the point?’ Most arguments do degenerate in this way but some don’t. You have to allow people to argue, and mostly argue badly, to tease out the good stuff.
      - Rachel Saunders
        
        I am all for a good argument, but I would never resort to name calling to prove my point. To some you may be a rapscallion and a blaggard, to others an officer and a gentleman, but ultimately that does not matter as long as your argument is reasoned and well thought out.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        As an outsider, I can see that JB’s article is knockabout stuff, but it doesn’t look so offensive to me as to be unprintable. She claims to be answering the accusation that cis women are privileged; along the way of course, she takes a few swipes. But it’s not, I think , beyond the pale. And even if it said something I really disagreed with (‘Muslims are all members of a sinister terrorist cult and mosques should be closed down’) I would still not want to restrict freedom to speak and publish – and I’m sure JB would not want to stop her opponents speaking, even if she disagrees with what they say.
      - Rachel Saunders
        
        Its not what she is saying, rather the manner and tone she is saying it in, This tone is school yard and brutish, blunt and, dare I say it, barbaric. Ms Burchill claims to be of working class roots, and her tone/manner clearly show that she is not afraid of getting into a cat fight when the mood suits.
        
        If you are happy to read such articles then continue to read the Spectator/Guardian/Daily Mail et al without a merest hint of a whisper of protest; but if you would prefer a more measured approach where everyone behaves as adults, then it is worth speaking up in protest at these sort of bullying articles that serve no purpose other than to drive traffic to this website because of the venting that is happening.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        You might have to ignore the style and focus on the substance. I think there is a serious article in JB’s piece about pressure groups and name calling – and also, perhaps, the over-sensitivity of minorities. Rod Liddle called last week for ‘the right to be offended’ and although we hope that offense is not given gratuitously, we have to be ready to make our case calmly when it is. That case has to be more than ‘sucks to you’ and ‘I’m a victim’, which is how some of the contributions on this page (not yours) come across.
      - Rachel Saunders
        
        I agree in principle with the right to be offended; there is a lot about me which will offend some people from my atheism and politics to my gender and sexuality, so if I walk into a Mosque, Church, or Conservative club I am bound to cause ripples of consternation.
        
        Joking aside, I appreciate the point, and I will defend the right of someone to offend me, but at the same time that does not given them the right to declare open season on my core being.
        
        Ms Burchill’s comments about wheels within wheels is a fair one, though once she gives into the name calling she looses too much face for it to be heard above the sucking of collective teeth.
      - Gwangi
        
        “The English language has a bounteous lexicon to play with, why resort to name calling and pejoratives to make your point?”
        Indeed, and I look forward to all noisy shrieking misandrists and career feminists refraining from insulting half the population in future – i.e. men (y’know, those utter monsters who are to blame for all bad in the world…)
        Better still, why don’t career feminists and their tiny band of weird witch hunter followers just all go live on an island somewhere (they’ve got plenty on Scotland and may soon need all the cash they can get so I’m sure they’re open to offers) – that way, normal women who don’t hate men can get on with them in the wider world without the constant angry ranting and man-hating woman-hating spite and vitriol spat at them by these very strange band of twisted feminist sisters (which must be around 0.1% of women, if that).
      - Piquette
        
        “Also the transgendered community invite derision by insisting that everyone pretends that they have all changed their gender. ”
        
        Exactly! Except, what the transgender community is insisting is that we pretend that they have changed their SEX. They are insisting that we pretend that their biological sex, which was determined at birth, was an error, and that they must correct this error via “treatment,” which consists of impersonating the opposite sex (often by performing stereotyped gendered behaviour), taking dangerous, synthetic hormones, and undergoing mutilating surgeries.
        
        Think about the reality of what is happening here: people are poisoning themselves, and having healthy body parts and tissues removed–they are wounding their genitals and destroying their reproductive organs–in order to force their bodies to conform to something as retrograde and nebulous as an internal “gender identity.”
        
        Well, we are free to do whatever we wish with our bodies. We are free to challenge gender roles, and the misery they cause–and we should continue to do that. But, of course, nobody can change their biological sex. As with all sexually dimorphic animals, a he is a he, and a she is a she (with inter-sex conditions being a rare exception).
        
        The desire to change one’s sex is a compulsion, and the belief that sex can be “reassigned” is a delusion. This delusion is obviously very painful–so painful that it often leads to self-harm and thoughts of suicide. This is a terrible thing, and not something to be celebrated.
        
        Trans-activists cannot demand that we enable and participate in their delusions. We weren’t born yesterday, we know what we know, and we know that black is not white. Refusing to bend reality, refusing to pretend–even if some feelings get hurt–is not bigotry.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Are you two stupid?
        
        Transgender woman ARE women. It matters not one iota if that person was born male. Sex can be reassigned and anyone who thinks otherwise is, quite frankly, a moron.
        
        Take your idiotic ignorance elsewhere. In fact, I’d go so far to describe you both as scum.
      - AndrewS
        
        Well, I guess I really am stupid. I have to say though that judging by this thread everything I ever heard about tranny’s is absolutely true. It has been a real eye-opener. I guess you need the attitude for turning tricks in those dark alleys.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        The contributions of Rachel Saunders and Danah Sparkle might change your mind. I don’t agree with all they say, but they their tone is markedly different
- Jeffrey Vernon
  
  JB calls says that intersectionality has degenerated into grievance hawking and the politics of hurt feelings (or words to that effect). This is an opinion, and it’s not one that JB is the first to publish. If this breaches the PC PCC code, then the PCC will have to go. In any case, you don’t want newspaper editors to fight your battles for you, I take it?
  - Rachel Saunders
    
    If this was a one off I may, may, agree with you, but this article is a rehash of one she posted last year which got the same reaction. Editors have a responsibility to the public to publish articles that do not incite hatred or discrimination. By all means have a discussion on intersectionality, but by resorting to name calling and using pejoratives Miss Burchill has not just cheapened her argument, but also denigrated a whole community for no reason other than to point score.
    - Jeffrey Vernon
      
      I think incitement is a slippery idea. Are we really incitable, like wind-up toys? And what, exactly, does the article incite us to do? It merely questions the shrillness of minorities, and the claims of TS activists about born women. It might throw out some insults you don’t like, but both sides are guilty of that; and I think that it suits some over-heated campaigners to focus on the way JB wrote rather than WHAT she wrote. Sticks and stones.
John Richardson

wow. I am a little conflicted even commenting on this, since Julie’s modus operandi is so clearly aimed at being at being as ignorant as possible in order to maximise web traffic (and so ad revenue), but… This article is founded on an obvious contradiction: she argues against intersectionality, but then positions herself as a socialist feminist. That, JB, is intersectionality in a nutshell. Everything else in this article is JB tying herself in knots trying to justify a prejudice that fits with that of her employer, to gain a wage for herself. She thinks hateful things about a group of people and so she invokes an academic sounding (ooh, so out of touch & bourgeois) concept to help support her prejudices. But prejudice is prejudice, and it adds nothing to rational debate.
- AndrewS
  
  ‘This article is founded on an obvious contradiction: she argues against intersectionality, but then positions herself as a socialist feminist. That, JB, is intersectionality in a nutshell.’
  
  When I did O level French I had an English-French dictionary which I found a great help. Is there such a thing as an English-Lefty drivel dictionary? I feel the need at this moment.
  - John Richardson
    
    I’m sorry that don’t understand Julie’s article. Perhaps you could have a bit of a read & a think before declaring that you don’t know what this article or debate are about? As someone with an O-Level I know that you believe you’re clever, and that everything you don’t understand is rather odd and threatening. But really, try not to get so upset. Perhaps explore the world and all its complexities a little more, and we’ll all be happy. Ok?
    - James
      
      You managed to write that entire load of condescending twaddle and still no space for a simple definition of “intersectionality”?
      It’s almost as though you don’t want people to decipher your jargon, odd as the use of language is primarily to communicate rather than obfuscate ideas.
      
      I teach chemistry, we have lots of jargon, I always say to students if they cannot explain the idea in a manner that would be understandable to an 8 year old, then they don’t actually understand it themselves.
      - John Richardson
        
        James, it’s not my jargon, it’s the jargon employed by Julie in the article itself. Have you read it? But, for the record: intersectionality is the notion that some people suffer more than one form of discrimination. (So working class women have problems that are shared by working class men and women as a whole, but that their issues are particular to the combination of being working class and women). Equally, the intersections of these points of discrimination are tools/resources for empowerment & unity – so working class women may unite under the banner of feminist socialism. Like Julie does in the article, whilst simultaneously belittling the idea of intersectionality. See? Not so difficult really.
      - La Fold
        
        Its called word fetishism and its a deliberate ploy to be able to speak absolute cobblers and cover your backside at the same time.
  - Gwangi
    
    Try the Open University. They publish a glossary of acceptable terms and bad, evil, like, really naughty ones never to use, cobbled together no doubt by the usual twaddle-talking pompous overpaid academics who live in the unreal world of academe which such drivel matters.
    Most other universities have similar Soviet ‘banned’ lists:
    http://www.unh.edu/womens-commission/nonsexist.html
Turnip Truck

I wish someone could make this particular clique of English feminists realize that from the point of view of the younger generation they have made themselves essentially indistinguishable from, say, the racist old coots going on about the Kenyan Muslim socialist in the White House. They’d be loathsome if they weren’t so pathetic. The particular bizarre fixation on and inability to cope with what has to be one of the most consistently mistreated groups in the world (the transgendered) is an embarrassment to all of us who identify as feminist.
James

“Today’s left is a competition in shouting one another down”

I wouldn’t have it any other way, nutcases shouting at nutcases never gets old.
As a cis-isomer sinistra male (Am I doing it right?) can I ask dextera-folk to check their privilege?

Being left-handed is so oppressive, man.
Jackthesmilingblack

On the third-world Asia backpacker trail, Brit chicks are the hardest to engage in casual conversation. In fact “user hostile” would be a better term. Whether negative experiences or the feminist mind set that “all men are rapists” is the reason is impossible to determine. But the net result is that you soon to avoid them like the pest.
Jack, Nepal
grutchyngfysch

Without wishing to be unduly insensitive, there’s an awful lot of bollocks below the line today.
drossdragon

I found this from back in 2007, from Snarky’s Machine. I think it truly captures the purpose of the loud and clear opposition to privileged conversations and the discomfort such responses engender. Only she was more explicit, I’ve made it a bit cleaner because it’s not my blog.
“I don’t seek to win hearts and minds. That’s not my style and besides,
they are way better folks for that job. I don’t care what people think
as long as it doesn’t blow up my spot or the spots of others dealing
with oppressions. What I care about is behavior. My activism seeks to
make it unpleasant and EMBARRASSING and EXPENSIVE
to engage in f**kery. My style of activism – whether it pertains to fat
or other -isms – seeks to cause folks tremendous shame and discomfort
so they STOP ENGAGING IN THE BEHAVIOR
and pressure others to do the same. That’s why I’m nasty when I smack
down acts of -ism f**kery. I’m not trying to get folks to “embrace a
diverse range of voices” – I’m way too pragmatic for that – I’m just
trying to get them to STOP WHATEVER F**KERY THEY ARE DOING, hopefully
embarrassing them and causing others to give it serious thought before
engaging in similar behavior.”
Guest

Wow. Racism and transphobia.
Hereward

Who cares? These are the rants of self-obssessed, self -indulgent, decadent spoilt children of the West. There are far more important issues in the world, and even in Britain.
JB is an amusing anachonism who does not appear to be objective enough to see that socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried,because of the nature of the human condition. Why not use her undoubted polemic nd contraian skills to focus on such things as child abuse, female genital mutilation, police corruption, NHS incompetence etc that effect many more peole in to-day’s Britain.
The Dame

There is a feature in the “Viz” comic called “Millie Tant” which sends up the likes of Burchill something rotten. And given that most radical feminists like Burchill and Bindel resemble the Bacon family, to continue with the “Viz” anaolgy, I find it a little amusing that they can insult us transgender girls, most of whom are far better looking and far sexier than Burchill or Bindel. (My apologies to Mutha, Fatha and Biffa for comparing them to radical feminists…)

The point I make is very, very simple: YOU treat US (transgender people) with respect and then we will treat YOU with respect.

Now I am no fan of the “Trans Stasi” as one contributor memorably said and I have had my disagreements with them. Especially given as, politically, I am to the right of them. But I stand firm with them in demanding we are treated with respect, treated equally and fairly within the law – I know from my own experiences we are not – and are allowed to live our lives without fear of hassle, abuse or worse.

Allow me to throw a bone in here. If La Burchill had commented about Muslims in the same way, she would be in jail now. So what makes her assume that she has the right to comment on a section of society that is marginalised and suffers daily discrimination? Freedom of speech does NOT give one the right to insult or demean anyone because of a perceived difference. To be honest, I didn’t take offence at Suzanne Moore’s comments about “Brazilian transsexuals”. After all, I am closer to that description than most (no mean feat given I am of Celtic, Teutonic and Magyar heritage). But that did not give Burchill the right to jump in bovver-boots first.

So, to end, I will repeat that if you want respect from us then you treat us with respect first.
- Piquette
  
  “And given that most radical feminists like Burchill and Bindel resemble the Bacon family, to continue with the “Viz” anaolgy, I find it a little amusing that they can insult us transgender girls, most of whom are far better looking and far sexier than Burchill or Bindel.”
  
  You’re amused because you’ve made a mistake in thinking that feminism is a beauty contest. That only good-looking and sexy women can have valid political opinions. But, it isn’t surprising that you misunderstand feminism, and womanhood itself, given that you are a man.
  - Michelle-Louise Burrows
    
    The Dame is a “man”, is she?
    
    How brave you are to insult from a computer screen. I know this woman, she is a friend of mine, and she is ALL woman.
    
    You, on the other hand, are a snivelling little piece of dogshit who, if you said that to either The Dame or her husband, would put you in intensive care.
    - Piquette
      
      This is trans-activism. Threatening to beat women.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        What? You are a woman? Well, blow me!
        
        You see, you sound and write more like a man than any other man I know.
        
        Can’t take it? Don’t dish it out.
      - Piquette
        
        “What? You are a woman? Well, blow me!”
        
        More trans-activism: narcissism, rage, misogyny, violence.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Narcissm? Just because you are as ugly as all of the seven deadly sins…
        
        Rage? Where?
        
        Misogyny? Can’t take it? Don’t dish it out…
        
        Violence? Only if transgender people absolutely have to to knock some manners and respect into you…
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        Why are you so obsessed by appearance?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Aren’t you?
        
        You see those who insult transgender people are generally ugly and socially inadequate like this “Piquette”. I bet this person hasn’t had a shave or a shower for quite some time and smells like a drain…
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        Seriously. That’s all you have. When we expect you to move on to “all lesbians look like men”?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I’m bisexual myself and I certainly do NOT look like a man. Some lesbians are extremely pretty eg Cara Delevigne but you must admit that some radical feminists woulen’t look out of place in the France front-row in tonight’s Six Nations match…
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Not only is it a bloke, but it can’t spell, either. KNOB!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        You still here? I thought they’d have carted you off to the funny farm by now…
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        They had to stop off at yours with a straitjacket and a butt-plug, but I’m hoping they’ll get here soon.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Nothing wrong with me, Julie.
        
        PLENTY wrong with you…
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        meow phfft phfft!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Can I ask you a question, Cyril?
        
        In all seriousness, what is it like to have sex with your sister? Because with you being an inbred and a retard, I’d like to gain a little bit of understanding…
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        I have flagged your comment.
        
        I don’t have a sister.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Flag away. Can’t hide the truth.
        
        Well, your mother then…?
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        No, my mother is a fine woman, a wonderful mum.
        
        Maybe my 7 year old daughter then? Howabout her? Got anything to say about her?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Why? Don’t tell me you’ve had sex with her…
        
        Maybe farmyard animals perhaps…
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Thanks for that Michelle – I hope they leave your post up to show everyone what sort of man you truly are.
        
        Keep it up sweety, you’re coming out of this worse.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Michelle is not a male name. Or are you too stupid to realise that?
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Well if it’s a womans name then it isn’t appropriate for you.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I don’t think I’m coming out of it worse as I am showing YOU up for the retard that you are.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I apologise to all retards for comparing you to Cyril here.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        You’re just abusive, worse than me when I’m on one.
        
        Is it your period? Of no of course it couldn’t be… silly me.
        
        ;D
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        And you would know all about that, wouldn’t you, Cyrille?
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        I must confess – that isn’t really me in the picture and Cyril isn’t my real name. But shuuuush don’t tell everyone.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I know it’s not you. It’s better looking…
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Well at least I have a neck and facial features.
        
        Did you have to go on holiday to get your skin that grey?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Really? My word!
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Your profile pic is hardly flattering.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        What profile? All I can see is a grey square with a dark grey figure of a human.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        It’s a shame we can’t see your beautiful self. Don’t be shy, Mike!
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Exactly. 😉
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Ableist insults OK with you? My nephew and niece both have autism – are they “retards”?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Transphobic insults OK with you?
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        I haven’t issued any transphobic insults, so what are you wittering on about?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Transphobic insults OK by you?
        
        Can’t take it? Don’t dish it out.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Transphobic insults OK with you?
        
        Can’t take it. Don’t dish it out.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        I haven’t issued any transphobic insults.
        
        And if you’re prepared to insult disabled people, then you can’t whine about others insulting trans people. See how this works?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Isn’t it? Well, Cyrille. Maybe “Cyril Shitforbrains” would be more appropriate for you…
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        I love you too Michelle.
        
        🙂
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Mike, isn’t there a toilet bowl you should be licking out somewhere?
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Somewhat unfair on the urinal don’t you think?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Well, hello, Julian.
        
        Shouldn’t you be with the other mental cases?
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Apparently it’s lockdown on your ward because you tried to have sex with a catheter. But I’m hoping they’ll let me in soon!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        My ward? Didn’t know I worked in a hospital?
        
        Mind you, you wouldn’t fit through the doors and they’d have to use a crane to get you in.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        If your mum didn’t give me a cupcake every time we have sex, I might have kept my girlish figure!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Girlish figure? Jabberwocky figure more like!
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Whereas you resemble Tweedledee, had Tweedledum swallowed him whole.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Julie, let me be honest with you.
        
        If I looked like you, I’d hang myself. I don’t speak for Paris Lees but I’m sure she feels the same way as I do.
        
        It must be terrible to a fat, bitter, old ape.
        
        You’re boring me now and I am not going to contribute anymore to you getting back in regular work as the only place you should be is in a padded cell.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        It must be terrible to a fat, bitter, old ape like you, Mike. Or did you miss a word out? MWAH! Big kiss, you sad seat-sniffer!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I know your game, Burchill. Keep on at it and I will report it to the Police.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Please pass them on to me when you’ve finished, so I can point them in the direction of your threats and abuse to myself, Cyril and Piquette. And it’s a lower case p in police. You DOLT!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Threats and abuse. Calling you “fat”, “inbred”, “retarded” is abuse, is it?
        
        If that is the case, then you are going down.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Oh you girls…. *waves hand gay-ly*
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        meow phfft phfft
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        And some transsexuals look like they have just wandered out of a Monty Python sketch. But that’s not ok to say because they weren’t born with vaginas and so haven’t glided through life with the ease that women who were have.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        My stance on this is quite simple. You dish it out then you should be able to take it.
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        As a matter of interest which bit of the article did you disagree with?
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        So we got the cross dresser and a lesbo/bi having a fight.
        
        Don’t you just love modern Britain… not.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        For your information, I am actually a woman.
        
        You. on the other hand, well, I haven’t a clue what you are. But I do know that you are as thick as mince.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        “For your information, I am actually a woman.”
        
        You sure about that?
        
        “But I do know that you are as thick as mince.”
        Explain why you think I’m thick? Explain or take it back. I have an IQ of 130 if that helps.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I most definitely am a woman. Let’s see. Boobs. Check. Vagina. Check. Figure. Check…
        
        No, I will not take back calling you thick as mince because it is evident that you are…
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        So you can’t prove it.
        
        Yet more baseless rhetoric then.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        No, it says more about you, son.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        You’re not my mother, and thank Christ for that.
        
        Trolling here has been fun, thanks for the entertainment.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        If I were your mother, I’d have strangled you at birth.
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        All bought and paid for and everything. http://lastofthecleanbohemians.wordpress.com/2012/02/17/for-immediate-release-charity-slams-sun-newspapers-hunt-for-innocent-man/
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        No, all natural. Unlike you.
      - Piquette
        
        Clara’s Bow–thanks for the confirmation of “Michelle’s” true sex. Of course, he revealed his abusive, macho, misogynistic self from the get-go.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        My true sex is female. You are a cretin.
      - Piquette
        
        And you are male.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I am not male. Since when have Michelle and Louise been male names.
        
        Honestly, you really are thick, aren’t you?
      - Piquette
        
        You know, Michelle, I’m feeling badly for your transgender brothers and sisters right now. You are embarrassing them, I’m quite certain, because you’re a terrible spokesman for trans rights. I’m sure–or, rather, I hope–that most transgender males aren’t as disturbed and violent as you are, but I have become suspicious that dangerous personality disorders are quite common amongst the male-to-female set.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I’m not embarassing anyone except you and the other cretins that post on here.
        
        You cannot prove that I am disturbed and violent and you are twisting the argument to suit your own agenda which you know to be total bullshit.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        French men have Michelle as a name, which just about says it all about the French. 😉
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        I have a cousin who had a sex change. He was a bit weird that one (his family was tbf). But apparently he/she is quite hot now, as a ‘Sara’. His father has just trained as a Church minister… modern Britain eh, just one big screwed up rollercoaster, where everyone is supposedly equal but no one actually is.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        But some are more equal than others…
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Indeed, generally you have to be non-white, non-male, non-Christian and non-straight then you get the valuable Victim Status label and preferential treatment at the cost of everyone else.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I actually fit three of that crieteria. Straight, white and Christian. Straight because I am married to a bloke who is more of a man than what you will ever be.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        “bloke who is more of a man than what you will ever be.”
        
        You have no way of knowing that because you have never met me.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I know that for a fact as I am married to him. He’s a former Marine, Hells Angel and nightclub bouncer…
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        No, dear. YOU are.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        What? A former Marine, Hells Angel and Nightclub Bouncer?
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Yes, Mike. And an utter fantasist.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Prove I am a fantasist.
        
        You see, I could pass your comments on to the Police – Incitement to Hatred – and my solicitors – clear proof of defamation.
        
        But I won’t. Well, not just yet anyway…
        
        Why? Because you, Piquette, Cyril and all the other obnoxious little scumbags – and you are – have kept me amused on a dreary Friday morning when it is raining. If there is one thing I love it is arguing with imbeciles like you because it just proves my innate superiority.
        
        Now if you will kindly excuse me, I’ve got work to do.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        You threatened PIQUETTE with violence and accused CYRIL of having sex with his mother and animals. Report us to the police all you want, FREAK. They’re going to LOVE what we’ve got on YOU!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        And since when has it been an offence to suggest that someone has had sex with animals or their own mother?
        
        You clearly do not know the law, do you?
        
        You cannot prove a single thing. And as for threatening this Piquette with violence, does that mean it is going to be carried out?
        
        You see, I can prove many things. Incitement to Hatred. Various Public Order Offences including transphobia and racism on your part (Zionists anyone?)
        
        Don’t call my bluff over this, Burchill. It has already been made available to the Police.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        I know, my mother would be most displeased.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Thank you for the kind words.
      - Piquette
        
        Ah, is he, the fantasist, finally gone?
        
        Did you notice, Julie, that he was very fond of the word “actually”? As in, “actually, I’m a woman” and “actually, I gave birth” and “actually, I have periods and … well, other girl stuff.” Because using “actually” makes statements super-true, right?
        
        Except for the fact that he’s a danger to society, the childish way he tells lies is almost cute!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        You are the danger to society, not me.
        
        You are the liar, not me.
        
        Keep on digging. All your comments are now with the Police and, seeing as I have connections with them, I think they’ll be paying you a visit soon. Let’s see. Incitement to Hatred. Various Public Order Offences. Hmmm… Six months to a year?
        
        And don’t try the old chestnut that I threatened you. Because you’ll be laughed out of court.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        You pathetic cry baby! You come on here, abusing and threatening people, then run to the *Police*! I’d tell you to grow a pair – but you obviously already have.
      - Piquette
        
        “All your comments are now with the Police and, seeing as I have connections with them, I think they’ll be paying you a visit soon.”
        
        Gosh, you’re adorable.
        
        I’ll ask my Daddy, who works for the CIA, and who is best friends with the Prime Minister, to go easy on you.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Don’t bluff me.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        And I’m going to ask my best friend, Barack Obama, to let you have a specially nice bucket in your cell, on Death Row, where you’ll be going when he finds out you called me fat.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Don’t bluff me, Burchill.
        
        There was a magazine once that showed a grotesquely obese man getting the electric chair. Funnily enough, it reminded me of you…
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Don’t huff me, Mike. Don’t have a hissy. Calm down, love!
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Actually, he’s an ass-hat. Actually, he’s MIKE! Actually his husband is a Policeman. Who rides a BIG BOY’S BIKE!
      - Piquette
        
        That’s actually very funny! I like you, Julie. Not “actually” like you, but sincerely!
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Me too, you!
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        ‘Than WHAT you will ever be’ – not only is it a man in a frock, it’s a man in a frock who is semi-literate. And semi-housetrained, no doubt.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        That is the correct terminology of English that I used.
        
        But I didn’t know Jabba the Hut spoke English. Or wrote for the Observer or Spectator.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        ‘That WHAT I used’, surely? I’ve written 20 books, Mike. Made a fortune. Had enough fun for fifty people. Extremely happy with my husband for nearly 20 years. Being fat doesn’t bother me that much. But your knob obviously bothers you a great deal.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Really? You’ve written books? Only with the help of a ghostwriter.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Now that IS libel! Send the *Police* round here when you’re done!
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Lack of a brain… check.
        No sense of humour…. check.
        Got a pencil stuck up your a s s… check
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        More intelligent than what you will ever be. Check.
        Sense of humour. Check.
        No pencil up my ass. Check.
        You are an imbecile. Check.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        I’m glad that you agree with me.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        No pencil up my ass. Check.
        
        It wouldn’t fit, what with your head being up there.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        If I looked like you, I’d hang myself…
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Well, it’d be better than your head up there wouldn’t it?
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Has Mummy been overgenerous with the Gummi Bears again, dear? Because you’re babbling like an infant on a sugar rush.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        You’re the infant, not me.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        Ha – the irony!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I mean, look at the state of you in your picture.
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        That’s not me, dear.
        
        Allow me to mansplain the internet for you, you seem a bit befuddled about it.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        And you wonder why homophobia exists…?
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        I do wonder why it exists because – and I know this may rock your world a bit – I am not here as a representative of The Gays, so if you hate gay people then that’s YOUR damage, dear, not mine.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Ooh, get you! If I looked like you, I’d hang myself…
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        You don’t know what I look like.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        IQ of 13 more like given your arguments.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        I wasn’t arguing, I was trolling and it worked.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        So is this argument leftist scum vs leftist scum?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I would wager that you are BNP. If so, here’s a quote from Nick Griffin: “BNP” are like the ‘old Labour’ party.
        
        So, Ridiculous is a fan of Marx and Engels then? Have they adopted the “Red Flag” or the “Internationale” as their anthem?
        
        Point? You want to talk about Leftist scum you should look at yourself in the mirror.
    - Cyril Sneer
      
      Well I must say your leftist credentials are really coming to the fore here…. especially your last paragraph.
      
      Such foul mouthed and abusive you non-privileged anomalies are.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Leftist credentials? Where?
        
        Are you thick? I am actually a ciswoman. Whereas you are probably a retarded product of incest.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        I have no idea how you can mix up political preference with gender identity.
        
        “Whereas you are probably a retarded product of incest.”
        No my mum and dad are not related.
        
        Whereas you are the confused one clearly. But, I don’t personally have anything against trans/gay people, nothing at all. Live your life how you want, it’s your life and only yours.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        No, you are confused. You seem to think that the retarded views of Burchill and other simpletons who have posted on here are the norm. Well, they’re not.
        
        This is 2014 not 1954.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        I don’t know what their views are, I was just busy trolling and minding my own business.
Cyril Sneer

Will liberals ever attain true equality? I don’t think so, not when they keep pigeon holing people and highlighting difference whilst persecuting the ‘privileged’. And, of course, whilst humans continue being humans.

Apparently everyone born white, male, straight and healthy is privileged…. everyone. Anyone else isn’t…. apparently. Then, some of those non-white non-males are more privileged than others…. apparently.

The New Media Journal have an article titled The Liberal Victim Value Index – it explains the madness of liberals and their BS identity politics. It’s worth a read.
Julie Burchill Raven

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYlJH81dSiw
- Friesjones
  
  Why not this one, I’ve always liked it:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-hYLL7Gpos
  
  It’s a common misconception that people who are trans are in some way weaker than people who are not trans, but nothing could be further from the truth. It takes a lot of guts and personal integrity to violate the basic societal taboos that demand gender presentation that matches apparent physical sex every time one interacts with another person or group, 24/7/365.
  
  It seems like the real “bed-wetters” are the people who stay in whatever closets they’re in, not the ones who have the courage to come out. Adding to the already-deafening cacophony of voices pressuring people to stay in the closet is not exactly being on the side of the angels.
  - Julie Burchill Raven
    
    Some of the best wishes I had after the Observer’s pathetic act of cowardice were from lesbians and gay men who had grown tired of the bullying bell-end tendency in the T bit of LGBT. Just because one calls oneself Lulu-Belle or Rosalinda doesn’t mean that one is not built like a hod-carrier. CHECK YOUR PRIV!
    - Michelle-Louise Burrows
      
      Bullying “bell-end” tendency? “Built like a hod carrier”…
      
      Not looked at yourself in the mirror lately, have you, Julie…?
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Yeah, but I KNOW I’m ugly! Thankfully, as I am a BRILLIANT WRITER, this is immaterial. What’s your talent, KNOB? PS You forgot BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ZIONISTS!
      - Piquette
        
        His talent is threatening women with violence.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Proof?
        
        And since when have Michelle and Louise been male names? And if you had bothered to look above, you will have noticed that I have a three year old granddaughter. Which means I have a daughter whom I gave birth to twenty two years ago.
        
        So. If I was a “man” as you claim, how could I have given birth?
        
        You really are scum, aren’t you, Piquette…
      - Piquette
        
        Proof? Your threats are still there, published for anyone to read. But, I do understand that dissociation may be part of your condition.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        What threats? That my friend, The Dame, and/or her husband would put you in hospital.
        
        First of all, you must be illiterate as it was not myself that was going to put you in hospital. So, I was NOT threatening you.
        
        Secondly, you think you can come onto a public forum, spout hate about people whom you have never met or known and expect not to be challenged over it?
        
        Thirdly, I am actually a ciswoman ie I have had kids, have periods and such like. Unlike you, I don’t look like Hulk Hogan.
        
        Finally, you have shown yourself up for being the bigoted cretinous moron that you are. You are about as feminine as Arnold Schwarzenegger.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        “Secondly, you think you can come onto a public forum, spout hate about people”
        
        Yes.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Well, no, you cannot. And don’t go down the old “Free Speech” chestnut either.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        O, Piquette! I’m SCARED! She’s going to HIT US WITH HER SPECIAL HANDBAG!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        You are a joke. You really are a sad joke. Do you know, I pity you. It must be awful to hate…
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Not as awful as it is to be a bum-wipe suck-up who is so desperate for the approval of men that you’ll threaten women with violence to get it, KNOB.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Desperate for the approval of men?
        
        Oh, Jesus Christ, Julie. Go and take your pills. This is getting really embarassing now.
        
        For a journalist, you also have no grasp of English grammar. My friend, The Dame, WOULD – conditional tense – put you in hospital. That is not to say she WILL and also it is MY FRIEND ie not MYSELF who would do such a thing.
      - Piquette
        
        All abusers are alike. They split hairs, gaslight, and deny doing something they did only one minute before.
        
        Remarkable.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Stop twisting the conversation to suit what you said just because you are too thick to have a convincing argument.
      - Friesjones
        
        KNOB, meaning “Kindlier, Not as Obnoxious as Burchill.”
      - Friesjones
        
        You’re a bit of a “special bag” yourself, aren’t you, Bright Eyes?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        My talent? Let’s see. Beauty. Glamour. Being fluent in eight languages. Intelligence. Class….
        
        Gives me a head start on you, doesn’t it?
        
        Oh, and as for you being a brilliant writer, I’ve seen better writing from my three year old granddaughter…
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        O, YOU ROTTEN FIBBER!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Prove I’m lying…
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I’m waiting…
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        I TOTALLY believe you! And I am Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands, BTW.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Ik buig me, Uw Majesteit….
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Keep posting, KNOB. The more reaction I get, the more work I’ll get. I owe you a big drink! Real Ale, I’m thinking, as you’re a PROPER BLOKE!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        And where is your proof that I am a “bloke”?
        
        You see, I can prove quite easily that you are a fat, ugly, inbred monstrosity but you cannot prove that I am a bloke.
        
        Keep ranting, Julie.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Keeping taking the meds, Mr Man!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        You are the one who needs to keep taking the meds with your ranting, hate-filled bile.
        
        You cannot prove that I am a “man”. And quite frankly, it is getting embarassing just reading your posts. You are in dire needs of being sectioned under the Mental Health Act as you are clearly deluded in thinking that a woman who has actually given birth to another human being is a man…
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        You’re the one who threatened people who don’t agree with you with violence, so probably you’d be sectioned first. KNOB!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Prove it is a threat.
        
        For someone who is meant to be a journalist, you have a very poor knowledge of the law…
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        I note that you’re not a very good cameraman or you only have a chin and no head.
        
        Please don’t mention anything about my nose, I’m very touchy about my nose.
      - Piquette
        
        ” … you are clearly deluded in thinking that a woman who has actually given birth to another human being is a man…”
        
        Isn’t that essentialist and transphobic, reducing reproductive capacity to the female-bodied, while excluding the male-bodied from this very important aspect of womanhood? Couldn’t saying such an insensitive thing be “triggering” for a trans woman?
        
        Or, perhaps this “actual” birth was a trans-birth?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Didn’t your mother ever tell you about the birds and the bees?
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        you see this is the problem – when ‘feminism’ turns into name calling and baiting people.
        
        thanks but no thanks, you’ll find me too busy trying to make a difference to women’s lifes.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Elizabeth, if Burchill is a “feminist” then I am so glad I’m not one.
        
        See, you challenge them and all their little transphobic mates come running out.
        
        People like Burchill have held women back for decades with their man-hating, halfwitted misogyny. Hence the comparison to The Viz’s “Millie Tant”. They are also one of the reasons why many LGBT people are turning away from Labour and all kinds of socialism.
        
        You may castigate me for joining in with the fun and you would be right but if Burchill thinks she can spout her mis-informed bile and not be challenged over it then she is mistaken.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        I’d tell you to GROW A PAIR, Mike – but you obviously already have. MWAH!
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        wow, how adult.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Indeed. how adult.
        
        Isn’t it funny that people like Burchill can spout out their hated and use deliberately inflammatory language yet when challenged get all their little mates in to help?
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        the definition of a bully
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Says the bell-end who accused an opponent of having sex with his own mother and farmyard animals!
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        You still haven’t said which bit of the article you disagree with. Shall I arrange for someone to read it to you?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        All of it. Satisfied?
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        Searing analysis. I’ll just put you down as a don’t know hey?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        And I’ll put you down as an ugly, retarded moron.
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        I’m really not sure why you’re being so aggressive with me. As I said before you seem obsessed with appearance. The only other thing you bring to the party is abuse slinging. You seem to think you’ve challenged Julie but you haven’t engaged with the substance of her article. ‘Actually’ or any other way
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        Inbred? Unleash your proof. Meanwhile… http://lastofthecleanbohemians.wordpress.com/2012/02/17/for-immediate-release-charity-slams-sun-newspapers-hunt-for-innocent-man/
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Meanwhile what? That you are a transphobic, ugly, inbred cretin? Just look at your articles, dear.
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        Definite? Indefinite?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Definitely you are an inbred ugly cretin.
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        And you would know that how?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I know that without even looking at you.
        
        You don’t want agression? Well, keep your idiotic comments to yourself.
      - Friesjones
        
        Er is niet genoeg goud in de wereld om een kroon te maken voor uw grote hoofd.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Of een zak over haar grote hoofd te zetten…
      - Friesjones
        
        Misschien een afdekzeil zou volstaan.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Judging by your profile picture, you’re DEFFO a Must-Do!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        My profile picture? Please elaborate…
    - Friesjones
      
      I’ve seen that picture of you on the beach, and you aren’t exactly built like a ballerina yourself, so you have little room to complain about the appearance of others. You look like the South end of a Northbound mule.
      
      What a surprise that the friends you’ve cultivated in the Gay & Lesbian community are the vanilla transphobic types who hate on the flamboyant elements of the Pride parades every dang year, considering that you’re a vanilla straight woman with retrogressive political views.
      
      Check your privilege, indeed. I love how you paint your upbringing as “working class” when your father was the UK equivalent of Jimmy Hoffa. I bet you had more new shoes in one year than most real working class people’s kids got in their entire childhood.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        ASS-HAT ALERT!
      - Friesjones
        
        Are you trying to turn me into a newt by yelling magic words at me? :p
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        She is, unfortunately.
        
        Gorillas have no other way of speaking…
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        In which case, you must be a silverback
        
        Quote : “you are a transphobic, ugly, inbred cretin”
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I was talking about you as well, Flaming Fairy…
      - Flaming Fairy
        
        *yawn*
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        vanilla transphobe straight retrogressive woman.
        tutti frutti transphilic bent progressive man.
        terf and surf.
        How we become addicted to labels.
        
        The trans community makes a big mistake in thinking that difference and definitions and boundary-marking will advance their cause.
      - Friesjones
        
        Labels like Jeffrey or South? Without labels, human life is meaningless animal existence. Language is what separates us from the beasts. Well, except for Burchill apparently…
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        I really WAS born with that particular label….
        
        When I read the string of identities that some people assume, I come over all taoist (opposing Distinctions was at the centre of their philosophy)
Michael H Kenyon

Ye Gods. Life’s demanding enough about this narcissistic exercise in two bald women fighting over a comb. Leave them to their histrionics and don’t get drawn in. There are Trans folk out there who don’t play victim just as there are feminists who don’t try to divide and conquer. They don’t write in the media or harry on blogs. Get on with real life, and ignore this peeing competition.
- danah sparkle
  
  In light of your comment, I don’t quite understand what you’re doing here.
LizLox

Julie, you know, I think, that I am a gay woman. You know also that I believe you have the right to say what you think. As do I. It seems that, because some transgender people were vile and offensive to a friend of yours, you can be vile and offensive about transgender people in general without causing offence. Or perhaps you want to cause offence? Well you have. I think your comments are abusive and ill-informed. I will not be one of the LGBT community that backs you in this.
- Julie Burchill Raven
  
  Liz, that is absolutely your right. I will defend to the death – well, maybe an online petition – your right not to like me. But I won’t be silenced – by any troll, tool or trans-sister. End of.
  - LizLox
    
    Didn’t say that I didn’t like you, Julie. I just don’t like what you’re saying here. That is different! I don’t wish to silence you either: challenge you, yes, silence you, no. I don’t consider myself to be a tool, troll or trans-sister (though I’m not sure what the last one is). On this issue, though, I cannot support you. End of.
    - Julie Burchill Raven
      
      Respect! Wouldn’t it be a DREARY OLD WORLD if we all agreed!
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Yeah, I would have to do something else with my time.
    - Jeffrey Vernon
      
      But what exactly do you not like about JB’s article? The core of it is the monstering of Suzanne Moore by an over-sensitive minority demanding acceptance before it has earned it; and a view that born women are simultaneously defective and privileged. If we don’t view the world through trans-parent glasses, we’re answered with defensive name calling and factoids.
      - LizLox
        
        Jeffrey, I thought I made it clear that I don’t like Julie Burchill’s language about transexuals. I said that it was this issue I was challenging and I know that Julie understands that. we have had discussions on this before and I’m sure we will again. I don’t agree with the way that Suzanne Moore was bullied and was not party to that. I would argue the toss with the indviduals who behaved in that way. Equally, I don’t agree with the bullying of transexuals. To use a cliche, I don’t think that two wrongs make a right.
yesIDeeClaire

In the war against the superstitions and illusions of today’s progressives, knowledge is your most potent weapon: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0094KY878
Julie Burchill Raven

400 COMMENTS! And only about a third of them mine. KEEP IT COMING, I’ll be back in regular work in NO TIME!
- Elizabeth Veldon
  
  can i ask how it feels to be a feminist and darling of the right?
  
  just asking (and please don’t reply with an insult)
  - Julie Burchill Raven
    
    As Nick Cohen has said of himself, I’m still on the Left – it’s the Left which has shifted its ground and now rallies FOR religious fascism and AGAINST free speech. I used to love writing for the Observer, but was bullied out of there. And here I am – REALLY enjoying myself!
    - Elizabeth Veldon
      
      you mean you wrote a piece for them which was viewed by the vast majority of readers as reactionary and it was removed before the observer lost advertising revenue.
      
      so racism, homophobia, misogyny, abilism and trans*phobia are of the left now?
      
      what kind of left is that?
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        I don’t care what you think of me, Elizabeth. But I’m sure you’re great fun at a house party.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        was that an insult? it’s so hard to tell when dealing with bigots.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Fuck me, it’s the Ghost of Oscar Wilde, come back to make us cower with his rapier-like wit!
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        *yawn*
        
        it must be good to be paid to write sh1t
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Better than giving it away for free, as is your wont, Oscar!
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        *yawn*
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        note to ms burchill: must try harder.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        oh: and i wondered how long it would take you to misgender me – how witty
- Cyril Sneer
  
  What was the article about? *shrugs shoulders*
  
  🙂
SimonToo

Very effective stirring – you really are good !

What a lot of replies from a segment of the Spectator’s regular readership that rarely contributes to its discussions.
Leyla

A brilliant if provocative piece. If feminists have to bite their tongue and grovel for their cis/white/ableist privilege every time they want to commentate on injustice, many important messages will not be conveyed. I acknowledge the painful journey made by trans people, and the need for their voices to be heard, but we have free speech in this country, nothing is stopping them from writing about their own experiences. But coming down on innocent feminists who have done nothing wrong, like Suzanne Moore last year, will, if anything, lessen support and understanding for their own trans experiences by alienating those cis feminists who would otherwise have supported them. Fragmenting the feminist opposition to prevailing hierarchies only strengthens the position of traditionalists who have no sympathy for any diversity.
- LizLox
  
  I think the issues that Julie has raised are well worthy of discussion, Leyla. Plus, I agree with you about the treatment of Suzanne Moore. For me, this piece would have been stronger without the language that Julie uses about transgender people. You will see from the comments here that this is what has tended to be the focus. If Julie hadn’t used that language we would be having a useful discussion about valid issues.
BKennedy

Mmmmm, popcorn.
Julie Burchill Raven

Dear Spectator, I would like to report myself to the police. If they will get in touch with me via email (please pass mine on to them, should they request it) I will happily turn myself in tomorrow, after luncheon. Thank you! JBR
- LizLox
  
  Luncheon, how posh! What are you having?
  - Julie Burchill Raven
    
    Bourbon and cake after supporting the Zionist Imperialist Fizzy-Drink Cartel at Brighton Ecostream! Then I shall, if required, make my triumphant passage to the Cop Shop in Kemptown, as Michelle-Louise Burrows has apparently reported me to them. (See below.)
    - Michelle-Louise Burrows
      
      How can I report you to Sussex Police when I do not live in Sussex? You really are thick, aren’t you?
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Clown, how many times must I tell you that POLICE is spelt with a lower case p? I was presuming that police forces *liase* with each other – and as your dad is the head of the CIA or something – those *connections* you boast of below – surely it shouldn’t be beyond you to have me arrested (for being a Zionist, among other things, as you say below – BOY, are you NUTS!) at literally any place on this planet? OOO, SCARED!
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        has anyone ever told you that you sound like a petulant teenager?
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Yes, all the time. Has anyone ever told you that you sound like a bell-end?
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        how insulting i’m…oh wait, i’m laughing at your inability to engage in a debate.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        I don’t debate with ass-hats who can’t punctuate properly.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        you don’t debate with anyone, you just shout insults and then claim you’re morally pure and ‘a feminist’ (though your behaviour and attitude towards other women calls that into question)
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Morally pure, me? Sound of hollow laughter! I was asked to write this piece, I wrote it (very well indeed) and now you are having YOUR say. What’s your problem? Peeved that YOU don’t make a living doing something you love? Don’t hate the playa, hate the game!
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        i doubt you love anything other than the bitterness in your own soul
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Those who know me, know better.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        you mean those who avoid you when they see you?
        
        ‘oh god,’ they say, ‘here comes that bitter old has-been!’
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Or “here comes the fat, bitter, o
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        michelle: using body shape against another person isn’t on.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Neither is using transphobic language, Elizabeth…
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        hate isn’t an answer to hate
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        What is then?
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        you’re not anyway, you’re behaving like an entitled alpha-male
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Mike! You’re back! When are the police coming for me, as you promised?
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Gosh, I obviously HAVEN’T been married for nearly 20 years to a man I ADORE, and I DON’T have dozens of mates who give me joy beyond belief on a daily basis. IT WAS ALL A DREAM! I bow to your superior knowledge of my life.
      - Guest
        
        Mike! You’re back! When are the police coming for me, as you promised?
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        it must be like a convention of bitter has-been when you lost get together.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        I’m sorry, can you repeat that?
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        ‘it must be like a convention of bitter has-been when you lost get together.’
        
        (as you asked me to repeat it)
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Elizabeth, is English your first language?
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        *yawn*
      - LizLox
        
        *lot
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        You will be, Burchill. You will be…
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Will I be? What are the police going to arrest me for? Come on, share it with the Spectator, get it all out and have a nice lie-down!
      - Peter Risdon
        
        Threats on a public forum? Without looking at the name, let me guess it isn’t ‘Einstein’.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        And who are you exactly? A solicitor? A police officer? I’d guess neither except a doleite who has nothing better do to.
      - Peter Risdon
        
        I have better do to and not better to.
        
        I’ll get the hang of your dialect in the end.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Get a job.
      - Peter Risdon
        
        Sorry to take so long to reply, quick conference call.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        To whom? The DWP?
      - Peter Risdon
        
        No, your mama.
        
        See how young and with-it I am?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        No. I see that you’re a complete tool.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        yea see, he’s got a point – getting the state involved in your discussion isn’t on.
        
        the legality of what burchill says has been tested by the press complaints commission – if you did call the police you wasted their time and yours.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        In that case, it leaves people like myself no other option than to take the law into our own hands…
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        ‘oh no! someone said something nasty! i need to issues threats of physical violence!’
        
        if i was burchill i’d consider a phonecall to the police for that comment.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Really? Did I mention my husband is a Hells Angel and former nightclub bouncer…?
        
        If the law does not protect us then we will protect ourselves. That is sacrosanct.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        oh p1ss off
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I am pathetic bully, am I. You lot are scum. Absolute worthless scum.
        
        Don’t like people standing up to you, do you?
        
        And you, Veldon, YOU can go and hang yourself.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        ha! no thanks, i’ll just keep campaigning and raising my voice if that’s ok with you.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        This really makes you look like a pathetic bully. You’ve done the trans lobby NO favours at all.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        and then some julie, and then some.
        
        i apologise for this w@nkers behaviour.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        there is no lobby, just individuals, sadly it means we get individuals who lash out as well as individuals who call for peace. The only person Michelles words reflect upon is herself, and I hope she thinks hard on them. Same as I wish you’d reflect on the harm yours do sometime. Somehow I don’t hold out much hope on either front.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        If anything DOES happen to me, Mike, we’ll all know who to blame!
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        oh go on, call the police, they would be interested in that comment (a series of comments constitutes a real threat to them)
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Re. our earlier discussions – For the record, although in this instance you’re not talking about me but I work full time, never claimed a penny off the government, been working over 20 years.
      - Peter Risdon
        
        Oh stop it. It doesn’t matter what the argument is about, if you try to get the state to close down someone’s opinions you’re the enemy.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        No, I’m not. It is an offence to insult on the grounds of transgender status. So shut it.
      - Peter Risdon
        
        If it is it bloody well shouldn’t be and trying to call on any such law would be beneath contempt. No meaningful conversation can fail to offend some people.
        
        As to shut it, you’ve already made it clear your only resort is censorship, so it was redundant.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        You want to insult people like me? Fine. But don’t complain when you get a hiding.
      - Peter Risdon
        
        Mick will come round, I suppose. You’re really not very bright. That’s not an insult, just an observation. From making hollow noises about calling the police to committing an actual offence yourself from a Disqus account linked to your own Facebook account?
        
        Why not take a deep breath, stop thrashing about with silly threats and debate the substance of Julie’s argument?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        My name is Michelle, not “Mick”, you transphobic bigot.
      - Peter Risdon
        
        No, your partner, Mick. I assume he’s your partner.
      - James Pugilist
        
        Mickey mouse
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        You’re the mouse, not me.
      - James Pugilist
        
        Sorry , you’re a woman so u be Minnie not Mickey
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        OK. Here’s something I posted earlier.
        
        “There
        is a feature in the “Viz” comic called “Millie Tant” which sends up the
        likes of Burchill something rotten. And given that most radical
        feminists like Burchill and Bindel resemble the Bacon family, to
        continue with the “Viz” anaolgy, I find it a little amusing that they
        can insult us transgender girls, most of whom are far better looking
        and far sexier than Burchill or Bindel. (My apologies to Mutha, Fatha
        and Biffa for comparing them to radical feminists…)
        
        The point I make is very, very simple: YOU treat US (transgender people) with respect and then we will treat YOU with respect.
        
        Now I am no fan of the “Trans Stasi” as one contributor memorably said
        and I have had my disagreements with them. Especially given as,
        politically, I am to the right of them. But I stand firm with them in
        demanding we are treated with respect, treated equally and fairly within
        the law – I know from my own experiences we are not – and are allowed
        to live our lives without fear of hassle, abuse or worse.
        
        Allow
        me to throw a bone in here. If La Burchill had commented about Muslims
        in the same way, she would be in jail now. So what makes her assume that
        she has the right to comment on a section of society that is
        marginalised and suffers daily discrimination? Freedom of speech does
        NOT give one the right to insult or demean anyone because of a perceived
        difference. To be honest, I didn’t take offence at Suzanne Moore’s
        comments about “Brazilian transsexuals”. After all, I am closer to that
        description than most (no mean feat given I am of Celtic, Teutonic and
        Magyar heritage). But that did not give Burchill the right to jump in
        bovver-boots first.
        
        So, to end, I will repeat that if you want respect from us then you treat us with respect first.”
      - James Pugilist
        
        So you’re not a woman, you had your cock cut off and became a woman , its good to know, now i see why you wanna have ” girl fights” you don’t fight men but u think you can fight women now u don’t own a cock , you hitting a woman is still a man hitting a woman, why don’t you have a fight with a woman boxer, i know a few can arrange a fight for you, good luck with that
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I am a woman, you stupid prick. I have fought men in the past and won as I was a keen boxer, even after my change. Good for self-defence!
        
        By the way, if you say I am not a woman then you are most certainly not a man. Most probably some little boy who thinks he’s hard hiding behind a computer screen.
      - James Pugilist
        
        Why do I find it so hard to imagine you in a boxing ring
      - Adrian Morgan
        
        You are pathetic – you were a hideous male before your change, extolling violence, and now as a so-called “woman” you are still posing in the manner of the worst sexist macho prick. So you may pose with your surgical manipulations as a woman – but your brain seems as aggressive and as bullying as a male who has used violence to get his way, so stop arguing and threatening like the worst example of a man.
        
        Women did not get to have civil rights by threatening to punch people you damned stupid hypocrite. Valerie Solanas wrote her manifesto calling for violence against men after generations of woman used moral argument and political protest to gain women the equal rights they deserved. And not by macho threats.
        
        You are posturing like a macho man, and as such it appears, you are an example of what Suzanne Moore and later Julie Burchill railed against – the nastier elements in the trans lobby who have used macho bullying tactics to hijack the argument of women’s rights and to hector natural-born women with their “male” egos. and personality-types.
      - Heidi Sorensen-Maierhoffer
        
        Could not agree more, Adrian.
      - Heidi Sorensen-Maierhoffer
        
        First of all, Michelle is a woman. Not a so-called woman but A woman. Secondly, how would you like it if you have been insulted for living your life the way you want?
        
        Your rant shows you up for being a transphobic bigot.
      - Adrian Morgan
        
        Oh dear. Do I give a flying f*ck what you think? Let me check… Hmmm…. Can’t find any semblance of respect for your whiny politically correct name calling anywhere inside me.. so the answer is: “No, I probably don’t give a flying f*ck.”
      - Heidi Sorensen-Maierhoffer
        
        I think you need to learn some manners. You wouldn’t dare say that to Michelle-Louise’s face because she would kill you. And so would her husband. Don’t like it? Then don’t dish it out…
        
        All you are, Adrian Morgan is a pathetic little worm who plays with himself more than what is good for him.
      - Adrian Morgan
        
        Oooh – thanks for the analysis of my life. Very insightful.
        
        And: “You wouldn’t dare say that to Michelle-Louise’s face because she would kill you.” `Really? She sounds like a psychotic who needs therapy. And you obviously think she’s brilliant.
      - Adrian Morgan
        
        “You wouldn’t dare say that to Michelle-Louise’s face because she would kill you. ”
        
        That makes her sound like a violent psychotic. Don’t think you are doing a good PR job for her….
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        Michelle, as another individual who has transitioned I ask you please stop, lashing out helps nobody, all it does is make people look bad and hand the haters ammuntion. You are doing nobody any favours here except people who will screencap what you said to justify continued hate, please, please stop.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        what substance? I’ve seen more consistency in a stool sample than the entire TERF arguement, it conflates bodily awareness with gender roles, projects the blame for the roles on trans people (more victim blaming) and screams insults to secure its points.
      - Diana Lascelles
        
        This appears to be a threat of violence a criminal offence
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        indeed – i think burchill should call the police
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I see all the transphobes are ganging up now are they because they don’t like someone who stands up to them. Aww… Diddums…
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        no, the people who don’t like nasty bullies are responding to you.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I’m a nasty bully? Someone insults me and people like me and I am supposed to sit there and take it?
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        you threatened a woman with violence, you’ve got no fvcking right to play the victim.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I am a woman myself, you f***ing clown.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        that makes no difference.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Doesn’t it?
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        screaming that a woman is oppressing you then engaging in threats of violence? i don’t care what your fvcking gender is
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        What do you expect? Sit there and take it? Moron.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        yea, whatever
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Spineless gutless turd.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        i’ll put that on my cv, thanks.
        
        🙂
      - James Pugilist
        
        You don’t speak like a woman, you certainly aint no lady
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        And you are certainly not a man…
      - James Pugilist
        
        You talk it out like adults actually or you rise above, but cyber threats are bullshit, cowardly coz just words, never followed up
      - James Pugilist
        
        But were you born a woman ? this is the question that tbh don’t really wanna know the answer to, don’t care just watch ur threats
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Watch my threats? What threats? That my husband is a Hells Angel and a nightclub bouncer? Do one, you snivelling little turd.
      - James Pugilist
        
        I doubt you’re married darling, I think you live in a fantasy world, you probably do have a motorbike though and ur fave song is leader of the pack
      - James Pugilist
        
        You think your hard coz u can threaten a woman or think u would beat a woman in a fight, fight a man, fight me if u wanna fight somebody
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        OK. I don’t think I’m hard. I am hard. And it won’t be just me. It’ll be sixty others wading in… You’re a bigmouth coward.
      - James Pugilist
        
        Oh no, not the whole gang
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        I have nothing against transexuals.
      - James Pugilist
        
        Grow up , bet u cant even have a fight lol
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Pugilist my arse. You couldn’t fight your way out of a wet paper bag.
      - James Pugilist
        
        Who you gna hit ? you aint gonna be hitting anyone so don’t give it large
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        And what the fuck are you going to do about it?
      - TheDaiLlew
        
        You seem to have mistaken a criminal offence for personal offense (note the subtly different spelling.) I doubt the police will give much of a s*** about the fact that you disagreed with something you read.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        They will when they see the content, you dumbass.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        see you used misogyny before and now you’re using abilism – can you just fvck off already.
        
        coming into a discussion of intersectionality and being a complete d1ck makes you a joke.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Calling someone a dumbass is “abilism”.
        
        Why don’t you f*** off? I have had enough of your leftist crap. They insult us. We insult them. Don’t like it. Then don’t dish it out. Simple.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        haha, you’re such a hypocrite.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        And you’re a halfwit.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        atleast i’m not behaving like an entitled alpha-male.
        
        check your fvcking privilege mate.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Don’t call me “mate”. You’re talking to a woman.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        ‘mate’ is a term i use when i’m addressing someone i don’t like – you know like people who think you can claim victimhood when you’re an aggressive bully.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I’m an aggressive bully? Someone insults me and people like me and you say I’m an aggressive bully?
        
        Did I mention my husband is a Hells Angel and a former nightclub bouncer in a coal mining and steel making town?
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Once or twice, perhaps. Are you threatening me with violence from this person?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Was I threatening violence? No. So stop twisting it to suit yourself.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        ‘i’ve got a big stick here right! so you agree with me!’
        
        ‘WHAT DO YOU MEAN I WAS THREATENING YOU!’
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        My husband DOES happen to be a former HA and bouncer. That alone should make people think twice before they make stupid transphobic remarks.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        see darling, that’s a threat.
        
        everyone knows where jb lives – christ even i know and i’m a dumb scott.
        
        i know where you live/ i have a big weapon to use against you – a real threat of physical violence.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Curb the transphobic language and I’ll curb the anger. Agreed?
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        oh fvck off, you’ve lost the argument
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        You f** off, bigot.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        i’m not the one threatening violence my dear
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        And I’m not the one being transphobic…
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Prove I’m threatening violence when I was only making the point about my husband being what he is and used to be?
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        What Elizabeth said. (Bet you thought you’d never see THAT, E!)
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        my street cred has just crashed 🙂
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        I’m not taking back a word – and neither should you, if those are your beliefs. Stand up for what you believe in.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Right. I’ll tell you what I believe in, shall I?
        
        I believe that people like myself have a right to be treated with respect by our peers. Have a right to walk the streets of any town in this land without fear of abuse or worse. Have a right to be free from insults in any shape or form. And that includes articles like yours.
        
        Let’s say you wrote that article about Muslims. Do you not think you would be in very hot water? So what makes you think you can write it about us? And don’t give me this “Freedom of Speech” lark. It does not give you the right to insult others because of race, gender identity, creed, sexual orientation etc.
        
        You may say that this is hyprocritical of me after I have insulted others. I view it differently. If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out. You may also say that I am violent. That is not the case but I do have the inalienable right to defend myself and people like me. And if that involves violence so be it. Do not think for one moment that transgender people are “pussies”.
        
        I honestly do not know what your problem is with transgender people. Do you know any? You may say that I have let the transgender community down but if you insult, some of us have the guts to fight back. And that is without getting all your little friends in to fight your battles for you.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        Not my friends – some of them actually loathe me. But you made such a silly show of yourself that you illustrated my piece perfectly. I owe you a BIG DRINK!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        How did I illustrate your piece? You see, look at the word “phobia”. It means “fear”. I mean, what have you and your fellow posters got to be frightened of from us transsexuals?
        
        You try being disresepcted and being treated like second hand crap in your own country. Then you’ll see where we’re coming from. We have a right to be treated as equal citizens and that struggle will go on until it happens.
      - James Pugilist
        
        Trans do have the right to be treated equally , just stop threatening women, they’re not the real enemy tbh
      - Heidi Sorensen-Maierhoffer
        
        I agree with you. Michelle-Louise should not have been threatening anyone
      - James Pugilist
        
        🙂 x
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        I’m pretty sure you claimed ‘cis’ woman who had given birth 20 odd years ago. Are you mentally ill, a liar or just ashamed of who you are?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Well, at least, I’m not a bigot like you.
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        Genuinely interested. If you’re as proud as you claim. Why lie?
      - James Pugilist
        
        Trans should be treated equally and be accepted, that’s not the issue, the issue is people who get abusive and make death threats
      - Heidi Sorensen-Maierhoffer
        
        Elizabeth, I agree. It was a threat. But can you prove it was directed at you and she intends to carry it out? That’s what any solicitor will ask you. XX
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        So you expect your husband to go round beating people up?
        
        And I was right, you think manhood is attained by muscle and brute force. Being a man doesn’t require either. Its all about responsibility and not shirking from those responsibilities.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        ‘Being a man doesn’t require either, it means that you accept your responsibilities.’
        
        that about sums up my idea of manhood 🙂
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        My husband is an amazing grammarian. He punctuates a sentence – it blooming well STAYS punctuated!
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        as a dyslexic i’m sh1t at grammar but i love that the word for making a sentence comes from the word for making a spell.
        
        much more elegant than ‘my boyfriend will beet you up!’
      - James Pugilist
        
        Real women wear the trousers they don’t hide behind a man you little cretin
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        In which case, ever set foot in Blackpool again, we’ll meet up and we’ll have a right old sort out. You and me. And bring your dinner as well, by the time I’m finished with you, you’ll be needing it.
      - James Pugilist
        
        A right old sort out ? I don’t want your old tat
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        Michelle ,stop it, just stop it please. Violence and threats aren’t the way to address this, even against trolls.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        she appears to be threatening me now.
        
        i think she needs to go offline and have a cup of tea
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Veldon and Burrows – what on earth are you arguing about? I’ve scrolled a yard up the page and I can’t work it out. Is this Intersectionality in Action?
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        a rather odd trans*woman was threatening both of us with a kicking from her ‘former hells angel’ husband
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Yet you cannot prove that any threat was made.
        
        Keep twisting it to suit your agenda.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        yea, i’ve got an agenda.
        
        you’re such a bully.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Oh, I’m a bully. I get insulted for standing up for myself and other transgender people and all Burchill’s little mates, including yourself, join in on her side.
        
        Now I am prepared to be reasonable if you are and that involves NO transphobic remarks. Do that and I will apologise and withdraw my previous comments.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        yup i’m her friend.
        
        i detest her, i despise everything she stands for – hell i even think her defence of Israel goes too far.
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        You’ve basically made such a show of yourself that even Elizabeth V, who loathes me, is now standing up for me. Good job there!
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        i know, i feel dirty inside 😀
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        See my post above yours.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        He is apparently more of a man than I.
        
        I am not able to confirm this because I have never met her or her husband.
        
        If I met her husband, I’d probably laugh in his face and then offer him my condolences.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I’d like to see you try it…
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        i can see this making it’s way onto gender identity watch and gendertrender.
      - danah sparkle
        
        Sadly it will, not that it matters. Cathy and “GallusMag” will always find something to gin up the ragemonkeys, and when they don’t they’ll just make stuff up. Anything to stay relevant.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        sadly yes.
        
        i was once on gendertrender – they viewed me as (more or less) ideologically correct – apart from the gender thing obviously – and correctly gendered me.
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Oh yes I forgot how much of a real man he is… the violence thing… yeah very manly.
        
        Any wonder you’re confused about your identity as you clearly have no idea what a man is. 😉
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Well, you certainly are NOT a man…
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        That’s it, I’m not playing any more. Have you got something against pink people with big furry ears and long snouts?
      - Heidi Sorensen-Maierhoffer
        
        She is not an odd woman. If you hadn’t hurt her with your evil comments then she would not have reacted like this.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        are you threatening me now?
        
        do you want me to call the police on you?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Prove I was threatening you.
        
        You see, you lot can dish it out but you can’t take it when someone has a go back. For your information, here is my original piece that I wrote regarding this.
        
        “There
        is a feature in the “Viz” comic called “Millie Tant” which sends up the
        likes of Burchill something rotten. And given that most radical
        feminists like Burchill and Bindel resemble the Bacon family, to
        continue with the “Viz” anaolgy, I find it a little amusing that they
        can insult us transgender girls, most of whom are far better looking
        and far sexier than Burchill or Bindel. (My apologies to Mutha, Fatha
        and Biffa for comparing them to radical feminists…)
        
        The point I make is very, very simple: YOU treat US (transgender people) with respect and then we will treat YOU with respect.
        
        Now I am no fan of the “Trans Stasi” as one contributor memorably said
        and I have had my disagreements with them. Especially given as,
        politically, I am to the right of them. But I stand firm with them in
        demanding we are treated with respect, treated equally and fairly within
        the law – I know from my own experiences we are not – and are allowed
        to live our lives without fear of hassle, abuse or worse.
        
        Allow
        me to throw a bone in here. If La Burchill had commented about Muslims
        in the same way, she would be in jail now. So what makes her assume that
        she has the right to comment on a section of society that is
        marginalised and suffers daily discrimination? Freedom of speech does
        NOT give one the right to insult or demean anyone because of a perceived
        difference. To be honest, I didn’t take offence at Suzanne Moore’s
        comments about “Brazilian transsexuals”. After all, I am closer to that
        description than most (no mean feat given I am of Celtic, Teutonic and
        Magyar heritage). But that did not give Burchill the right to jump in
        bovver-boots first.
        
        So, to end, I will repeat that if you want respect from us then you treat us with respect first.”
      - Julie Burchill Raven
        
        I don’t want respect from you, and I will give you none. Respect is earned.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I earn respect. You are not worthy of my respect.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        i never thought i’d agree with you on anything but i do on this
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        And you, Veldon, are a transphobic bigot.
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        no, i just don’t like you
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I can’t stand you either but I don’t complain.
      - James Pugilist
        
        I bet your as beautiful and sexy as Farrah Fawcett in 1976
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        You can’t prove a bloody thing. The Police visit my house. They see my husband and myself off for a chapter evening on our bikes, dressed in leathers. He then comes home, has a shower and puts his tuxedo and dickie bow on and goes off to work… Not to knock seven bells out of you. Why? Because you are not worth the steam of my urine.
      - James Pugilist
        
        Do you ride side saddle or sit in a sidecar ?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I ride my own bike.
      - James Pugilist
        
        I bet you look like Suzi Qautro in ya leathers
      - Elizabeth Veldon
        
        holly sh1t, you just want all the way to 11 with that one
      - La Fold
        
        SO he drives around in urine soaked jeans and gets a crafty hand job off trainee hairdressers in a pub toilet at the weekend then?
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        I’d like to see you say that to his face. But then again, you’re a coward hiding behind a computer screen…
      - James Pugilist
        
        I bet he has got a massive cock
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        Did I mention that I used to be in a cartoon?
      - James Pugilist
        
        No , which ?
      - James Pugilist
        
        Ill fight you and ya husband, so really you’re just a bitchy gay man with his cock cut off who wants to be prettier than other women and fight em, what a twisted idea of womanhood you have , bet ur a right dog
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        You in Blackpool then? You wouldn’t stand a chance against either of us. Now, jog on, little boy…
      - James Pugilist
        
        id slap you silly sweetheart, bet you like it rough
      - Mike Oxenfire
        
        Shut up mate.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        You shut up, wanker.
      - Mike Oxenfire
        
        You are making a complete cunt of yourself, with this epic exchange, you have been loosing since the beginning!
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        For standing up for myself against toerags like you?
      - Mike Oxenfire
        
        Fuck off mate.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        You fuck off, nonce.
      - Mike Oxenfire
        
        You are the vile sexually perverse monster, and no one else.
        Stop projecting your evil behaviour onto other people, you fucking abomination.
        
        Oh, and also,
        
        Piss off mate.
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        Thank you for your comment. That will now be passed to the Police. You’ll be traced and you’ll be found…
      - Cyril Sneer
        
        I’m amazed the moderators allow this, I know I take the mick sometimes but well…. anyway good on the mods for not moderating – never been a fan of it.
      - TheDaiLlew
        
        Ah yes… I’d forgotten how full our jails are with newspaper columnists who wrote things that some people found offensive. (You’re ADORABLE, by the way.)
      - James Pugilist
        
        I doubt you have ever
        been called the cleverest woman in England
      - Michelle-Louise Burrows
        
        But I am a damnsight more intelligent than you…
      - James Pugilist
        
        Surely only a less intelligent person would make such a statement
    - Aura Willow Hazel
      
      saw you there , alongside your male friend who seems to think that screaming insults in a good womans face and intimidating her because he doesn’t agree with her is perfectly OK , I also saw you said and did naff all about it. Were you aware his victim is terminally ill? You must be so proud Julie
Mr Creosote

I wish she’d use paragraphs – just to give us all a break from the relentless diatribe.
- Elizabeth Veldon
  
  paragraphs are a conspiracy of the new left (or something – i’m sure julie burchill will explain)
Julie Burchill Raven

Five hundred comments! Keep it up!
- Elizabeth Veldon
  
  over 600 now, mostly one person telling us how tough and manly and threatening her man is but over 600 anyway.
TheDaiLlew

“999. Please state the nature of your emergency.”

“I just read something, and it offended me.”
They must really love those calls.
mumblety

If your father is a feminist role model for you, I think that explains a lot about this dreck.
Julie Burchill Raven

SIX HUNDRED! Keep ’em coming!
- mumblety
  
  This is the cool equivalent of a 3 year old kid shrieking with its fingers plugged in its ears saying CAN’T HEAR YOU but still rejoicing over the fact that its parents continue to yell at it for being a dumb fuckin kid
Sarah Datblygu

The point of the article is that the politics of being ‘offended’ and of using this offence to shape debate, are extremely unproductive. I feel there are many issues facing both the trans community and women in general, that desperately need to be discussed- yet time and time again certain members of the trans lobby shut down any debate with accusations of ‘transphobia’ and fury that the one and only acceptable response from people, ie- unquestioning compliance and tip-toeing around, might not have been adhered to. I am a vegan and it’s something I feel extremely strongly about- and practically every day I end up debating the nuances of factory farming etc. I have never once attempted to end a discussion by calling anyone questioning me ‘veg-phobic’ or something- where does that go? Nowhere. Many people here cite violence against trans people as an issue but in my opinion, plastic surgery is a form of violence against women, and it saddens me that this too, seemingly has to be part and parcel of trans life and anyone daring to question it’s necessity is undoubtedly transphobic.. I watched something recently where a trans woman was talking about first realizing she was trans because she ‘wanted to play with dolls’ as a child – how sad!! How awful, that as a society we have made people feel that as a boy, they can’t play with dolls! They must mutilate their body in order to do so!
- Julie Burchill Raven
  
  Good post! OK, off out now, back tmoz, thanks for making my first visit here such a *lively* one!
  - Mr Creosote
    
    Agreed, both thoughtful and measured and therefore a pleasant change. Comments should be into the thousands on your return!
- LizLox
  
  ‘Bed wetting cheerleaders’, ‘dicks in chicks’ clothing’, ‘gender benders’ , ‘major beautification operations’: all of these phrases I find offensive. So for me, the problem with the article is that, instead of restricting the focus to the important issues, it included language that was bound to be provocative. And then people are surprised if there are comments on it! Julie says she wants us ‘to serve each other with collective love and action.’ I agree. I just think for that to happen there needs to be respect on both sides. Note, I say ‘both sides’.
  - Jeffrey Vernon
    
    Are you really offended? The problem is that the response of the transphilia contributors on this page is composed almost entirely of outrage. It adds nothing to the debate to react in this defensive way, especially not when it’s accompanied by namecalling and an insistence on difference. In the first place, JB is better at dishing it out. In the second place, there appears to be no positive content to trans culture. We all need to stop taking offense, even when it’s meant, and certainly when it’s not
    - LizLox
      
      I find it offensive, yes and don’t feel that’s defensive, just honest (Julie is allowed to be honest, I’m allowed to be honest back). Not only do I find it offensive, I find it unhelpful to the debate. I don’t intend namecalling in return. I am not transexual so don’t think I’m the right person to make a point about trans culture.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Everyone can make a point about trans culture; trans people are in our faces, we can’t suppress our reaction to them, and indeed they need our response if they want friends and allies. The politics of offense is poisonous – at the extreme it leads to fatwas and EVEN retreats when no fatwa has been issued (Penguin books in India last week)
      - LizLox
        
        I don’t feel that trans people are in my face, I know a couple who are very quiet and reserved. I don’t agree with fatwas and I don’t agree that the book you are talking about should have been withdrawn. Surely I can say that I find what someone has said is offensive, in the same way that Julie was offended by what was said to Suzanne.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        I didn’t make myself clear – I meant, on this page, trans people are making themselves visible and inviting a response; hence, in our faces.
        
        JB took offence with good cause, I would say – if it’s true that SM was being monstered and cyber stalked. But words in an article, clearly in a polemical mode, no credible threat offered or likely, not even directed personally at you or anyone you know… Too many contributors on this page (I don’t mean you) have over-reacted to quite innocent turns of phrase and made up their minds that the other contributor is the Enemy. I think we all need to suppress our offence response and ask calmly whether there is a point at issue worth debating. In JB’s article, the chief claim is that dissenting opinion is not tolerated,even in its mild ‘brazilian’ form; and she offers some reasons for this in the history of campaigning. It adds nothing for readers to say ‘I don’t like your tone’, or ‘you fat ugly bigoted hag’ or ‘why hasn’t your writing been banned.’
      - danah sparkle
        
        I am trans, and I did *not* find the biggest problem with Suzanne Moore’s post to be transphobia.
        
        The racism is what I took issue with. That and the very-problematic body policing.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Hmm. You are more nuanced about taking offence than other trans posters on this page, but taking issue with body policing..did this really consume your thoughts for hours on end? And did SM’s alleged racism really come down to the Brazilian remark? It was plainly a reference to a recognisable type, in the same way we might say ‘thighs like a canadian lumberjack.’ If this is all it took to attract that torrent of monstering, it seems like a very mild offence. There must be more objectionable columnists than Suzanne Moore.
      - danah sparkle
        
        Actually, no, no it didn’t.
        
        What did was Julie Burchill’s indefensible follow up article that this exchange spawned. There really was no excuse for it, and it’s not the first time she’s demonstrated that sort of sentiment.
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        Did you feel as angry at the people who commissioned the piece as at the person who wrote it? Off the topic of this article to an extent but I do wonder whether anyone really believes that Julie Burchill wandered in off the street clutching a piece of paper and demanding it be published.
      - LizLox
        
        I’m not talking about what Suzanne said which might have been mildly tactless but should not have got the reaction it did. I though I’d made it clear that I was talking about Julie Burchill’s language in this article. I stand by what I say about her language being offensive. I issue no insult or threat or fatwa – merely my opinion. If you don’t find them offensive, then we agree to differ.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        No-one can help *taking* offense, although some people ought to try and feel less self-righteous about a whole range of topics. Public displays of outrage with no contribution to debate are what I find depressing. No attempt to isolate the offensive point, or why it matters – you know the kind of thing I mean, I’m sure.
    - danah sparkle
      
      What is transphilia? Sexual attraction to trans people?
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        I think I might have made it up. I mean, trans people and their supporters
      - danah sparkle
        
        You might want to be more careful trying to make up words using clinical suffixes, or you’ll make the same mistake as you did above.
        
        Please don’t read that as an imperative. It’s just friendly advice.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        If you look at some of my posts down the page, you’ll see that we’re completely at odds on this. Taking offense at words, and magnifying the insult, is the core of Burchill’s argument (when you strip away the polemic). Many transphiles posting on this page have this defect. Condescension is another common feature of this blog (you’ll do yourself a favour to notice).
        
        -philia does not always imply sexual attraction: I was modeling my neologism on terms like electrophile, having an affinity for negative charge. Transphiles like the society of trans people. Now, do you really want to stumble through posts talking about ‘gender dysphoriacs and their supporters?’ I think a shorthand is licenced in this case.
      - danah sparkle
        
        Most trans women I know don’t like being trans any more than someone would like being blind or autistic or something. It’s something we live with, given a choice between many terrible options. We don’t generally say so publicly for obvious reasons. I don’t think phile is appropriate in any case.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        You are likely to receive trans denials about your first point. I believe you; and I know some gays who wish they were straight. But it doesn’t suit their gay friends who think their identity was hard-earned, and don’t want any backsliders.
      - danah sparkle
        
        I’m well aware of that – it fell under the “not discussed in public, for obvious reasons” part of my comment.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        You mean they’re concealing their distress about being trans? From your other comment, I think you had a testosterone deficiency and were trying to stay ‘male.’ But this is not the situation of all trans women, is it?
      - danah sparkle
        
        I don’t know what all other trans women think. I only know what I and other trans women have talked about.
        
        And as far as I can tell, trying to “stay male” seems a pretty common experience, which might be why in the US, prior to transition, a trans woman is *twice* as likely to serve in the military than the general population, and many of us go two or three decades or more before we transition.
      - danah sparkle
        
        > You mean they’re concealing their distress
        
        It’s not deception to choose not to air all of your internal struggles in the public sphere. It’s something that trans people tend to talk about among themselves that we wouldn’t talk about around cis people.
      - Aura Willow Hazel
        
        Transphile isn’t a word, you really are clueless on the subject aren’t you?
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        If transphobia exists, transphilia exists. If there are transphobes, there are transphiles. I give the definition above, and I think it’s a useful shorthand.
        
        The article points out that campaigners argue about words instead of substance. You have illustrated this claim – you zoomed in on my post, found a single word you object to for reasons that I am not clear about, decided that I am hostile to transsexuals, ignored the point I am trying to make, and insulted me. This does not put you in a good light. The politics of hurt feelings is completely self-defeating.
        
        You commented elsewhere that there are few transsexuals available for scientific studies. You are completely right; and this is why it is premature to claim that all trans people have a brain alteration that causes their dysphoria. It is worth pointing this out, as many transphiles think that the matter is cut and dried.
      - danah sparkle
        
        Also, the fact that you’d use “philia” to describe a condition (gender dysphoria/gender identity disorder) that is not a paraphilia betrays a certain level of ignorance on your part that you’d do yourself a favor to avoid in the future.
    - Aura Willow Hazel
      
      Transphilia is not a word, never has been, maybe a refresher course on the language may be a plan before you comment on stuff you know NOTHING about.
- Jeffrey Vernon
  
  This is absolutely the point. Suzanne Moore’s Brazilian should not have called up a torrent of over-reaction from an audience of people just waiting for an affront to their dignity.
  - danah sparkle
    
    I get upset with racist comments no matter who they come from. That was my problem with her “Brazilian transsexual” remark.
    - Jeffrey Vernon
      
      Some people take offense as their profession. By all means reply to a racist comment, but I hope you wouldn’t characterise the author as a constitutional racist, huff and puff with outrage, call them insulting names, and make no attempt to find common ground with their debating point.
      - danah sparkle
        
        I feel I’ve already made myself very clear as to where I stand on that.
      - Clara’s Bow
        
        I think you are being disingenuous on this. This was a throwaway remark based not least on the image that many Brazilian transsexuals themselves project. Google it
      - danah sparkle
        
        Well I’m not, and I suppose we’ll have to disagree on that.
        
        PS: I can also google and find a lot of things about lazy Mexicans, or man-hating feminists, but that doesn’t make it true.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        It doesn’t make it true, but it shows that the stereotype exists.
      - danah sparkle
        
        I don’t disagree, but I also think she wasn’t very clear.
    - Sarah Datblygu
      
      How is the comment racist though? What ‘race’ are Brazilians? My sister-in-law is Brazilian and there’s no way she’d be offended by this- Brazilians come in many different colours. It was fairly obviously an off the cuff remark, probably based on a stereotype of Brazilian bikini-clad model-types – a stereotype which was being NOTED by Suzanne, NOT perpetuated by her.
      - danah sparkle
        
        Regarding her comment: “and not having the ideal body shape – that of a Brazilian transsexual.”
        
        > probably based on a stereotype of Brazilian bikini-clad model-types – a stereotype which was being NOTED by Suzanne, NOT perpetuated by her.
        
        So she’s saying that Brazilian transsexuals always look like Brazilian models?
        
        There’s really no way around the fact that she’s perpetuating stereotypes in this comment. She may not have intended to, but between the body policing, the hamfisted generalizing of Brazilians – “models” or otherwise, *is* stereotyping. She’s not noting a stereotype – that would imply that transsexuals are the ones perpetuating that stereotype – which is unfounded. Instead it’s her painting trans women, and Brazilians with a broad brush in order to make some sort of ill-conceived statement. It was lazy, and it was bad form, regardless of her intent.
      - Sarah Datblygu
        
        No- I don’t think she was saying it’s transsexuals who are perpetuating the stereotype, I think she was suggesting it’s perpetuated by the media and the fashion industry.
      - danah sparkle
        
        Fair enough. The fact that I did not read it that way though? I’m not some unhinged lunatic, and I didn’t interpret her statement that way. I think it could have been phrased better, or at least she could have clarified when called out. Still, people’s reactions to it were excessive. Ms. Burchill’s was as well. In fact, her transphobic rant was the most over the top of anyone’s that I had seen, in terms of premeditated hate. It was completely unproductive.
  - Aura Willow Hazel
    
    or the brazillian families who are losing their trans children to murder at a terrible rate.
Eggie

Great stuff Julie, agree totally !
Michelle-Louise Burrows

Well, this has been fun, has it not?

I think I have proven that transphobia is alive and kicking in the UK. I defend myself and other transgender people and Burchill’s snivelling little cowardly mates have all jumped in to attack just because I had the temerity to defend myself.

You may argue that I am violent or whatever but what IS undisputed is that those who have attacked me have proven themselves to be transphobic lowlives. Worthless, gutless scum. Toerags with no breeding, no morals, nothing. Alley cats have behaved better.

I stand by what I have said above. And, if you don’t like it, do one.
- Mr Creosote
  
  Glad you’ve had a nice time.
  Having followed the thread for most of the day however, I’m still firmly of the opinion that women are all very well, but I’ve yet to meet a sane one 😉
- Clara’s Bow
  
  All you have proven is that you are delusional. I hope you can get the help you clearly need
  - The Dame
    
    And you have been proven to be a transphobic bigot…
    - Clara’s Bow
      
      Feel free to point out where. You could explain the relevance of the Millennium stadium comment at the same time if you like
  - The Dame
    
    Incidentally, Clara, are you at the Millennium tonight because I think Wales need someone like you in their front row…
- Jeffrey Vernon
  
  Michelle, I’ve clicked on your name until I got half way down the 750 odd comments. The only things you posted were playground taunts and (implausible) threats of violence. If you want respect from others, you have to show that there is more to transphilia than defensiveness, name calling, persecution mania, and an egg-shell personality. Your potential supporters are waiting to hear about the positive content of trans lives, trans culture and trans politics. There IS no Burchill Crew lurking on this page trying to attack you. The art of debate is finding out the common ground between yourself and the opponent. If there really is none, click off the page.
  - The Dame
    
    I apologise, Jeff, if I got a little heated but I am not going to sit there and take abuse from absolute vermin.
    
    A lot of transgender people are defensive and have a persecution complex for the simple reason they have been persecuted. So, when attacked it is the natural reaction to fight back. We have had enough of being treated like second-class citizens.
    
    But being transgender is a positive thing. It gives you an insight into both sexes. Despite everything that has been thrown at them, we have largely succeeded in overcoming them. I, myself, through my own efforts own my own home and car outright. I have done modelling. I have money in the bank. And that appllies also to three quarters of all transgender people. There are transgender lawyers, transgender police personnel, transgender chief executives. It’s not all doom and gloom, I can promise you.
    
    All we ask for is to be treated with respect and as equals in society.
    - Clara’s Bow
      
      I think you may have logged in as the wrong person there Shelly love
      - The Dame
        
        Do one.
- Julie Burchill Raven
  
  All YOU have proved is that you are an ASS-HAT who behaved so appallingly that even posters who LOATHE me ended up defending me. Really, I OWE you one!
  - The Dame
    
    Behaved appallingly? By standing up for myself from disgusting comments from you and others? You wouldn’t like to me face to face would you, Fatso…?
    - danah sparkle
      
      You’re not helping.
  - The Dame
    
    Furthermore, Porky Pig. They don’t loathe you. How can someone like Elizabeth Veldon, who wouldn’t look out of place in the Wales front row, oppose you?
lesleystafford

What a sad bore Julie Burchill has become. A polemicist? You have to be kidding.
- Jeffrey Vernon
  
  Well.. it was quite a long article. Tell me a bit that was boring,and a bit that was sad.
Gus Cairns

If we’re going to talk about ‘privilege’ we need to include EVERYTHING
that might make people unprivileged such as mental health issues, being
poor, addictons, being uneducated, having a chronic illness, etc.

A white gay male city banker might seem very privileged indeed – or his
life might be falling to bits around him as he struggles with meth
addiciton and panic attacks. We don’t know. People are complex.

I see myself as left wing but I hate the way standard left-wing academic
thinking sorts everyone into boxes, each one clamouring for more
attention – and inveitably ignoring other boxes.

As for this privileged white gay male, I spent part of yesterday using
that privilege to nag South African politicians not to deport a Ugndan
gay activist back to his home country, where he’d be jailed or worse, and
was very pleased I had the contacts, the push and the literacy to do
so.
- Jeffrey Vernon
  
  But the boxes and the privilege are part of the same discourse, aren’t they? We attach labels to ourselves and others, often in a squabble over slices from diminishing pie, and how we do love our chains and oppressions. There is nothing socialist about this; it’s the collapse of socialism into a contest between ever more narrowly defined and manufactured minorities. What, for example, is gained by defining oneself as cis-male? Nothing changes, even subjectively.
John

Very good article. Intersectionality is a sick joke
- danah sparkle
  
  It isn’t a sick joke to black women.
danah sparkle

As a trans woman, one of the parts of re-socialization that I had to work through in order to be healthy was shedding privilege, and realigning the way I viewed society in light of how society realigned how it viewed me.

This takes time, and is hard, and imperfect, and if you don’t go through this process you will hurt yourself and you will hurt others.

Most of the time, people that are relatively new to their transition still have work to do in this regard. I believe that most of those people are the ones we see online.

I don’t agree with Suzanne Moore’s original statement, and Julie Burchill’s reaction to it was appalling, but so were that of many trans women.

I don’t care for the fact that whenever I get online, I get to watch a few people make arses of themselves and do us all a disservice. It’s unfortunate. Most trans women that I know of, are rather polite, reserved people, and many of them are treated very unfairly. But the belligerent, violent ones aren’t doing any of us any favors. Online people get combative. That’s just how it goes. I do it, too. But violent rhetoric, and unhinged rage for it’s own sake is unproductive.

It’s okay to be angry, and as far as lashing out? I think it’s necessary and cathartic sometimes, but we also need to spend some time reflecting.
- Sarah Datblygu
  
  Very true. I just wish the more belligerent members of the trans lobby would appreciate that not all people who question the implications of trans politics, are trolls or ‘transphobes’ -and that being offended is not sufficient reason to shut down a discussion.
  - danah sparkle
    
    I think it depends on how people “question” it. There are certainly quite a few out there who use the rhetoric of “trans questioning” as defense of bigotry, and nothing in my post should be read as an excuse for that.
    - Sarah Datblygu
      
      What if, say- myself and many other white people, starting saying that we felt we were born in the wrong body, that I feel I’m really black. I’m not being facetious by the way. Imagine, I insist on being referred to as black, and I call anyone who might question this, a ‘bigot’. This also points to one issue specifically relating to M to F transsexuals- that they are transitioning to an oppressed group, whose identity they may well not fully understand. F to M transsexuals are not, and I suspect this may be one reason why many feminists have issues with some aspects of transsexualism.
      - danah sparkle
        
        I’d say for starters that you should do what any trans person would do and go see a qualified mental health professional, get evaluated for six months, and see if they give you diagnostic letter to go get medical treatment, whatever that would even look like. I’m guessing it would probably involve anti-psychotics or something, though. I’m not sure what condition that would be.
        
        Humans are sexually dimorphic. All fetuses are proto-female. The introduction of androgens inutero over the course of the pregnancy is what causes most XY fetuses gonads to turn into testes, their proto-labia to fuse into scrotum, their limbic nucleus to increase in size, etc.
        
        Sometimes this process isn’t perfect.
        
        There is no equivelent to “trans race” here. There is no medical basis for trans race.
        
        And as much as so many feminists want to pretend that gender is strictly a social construct and that brain sex is a myth, it just isn’t that simple.
        
        Gender roles are a social construct.
        Gender expression is a social construct.
        Gender performance is a social construct.
        Gender expectations are a social constrict.
        Gender identity appears to be at least partly neurological, according to all available peer reviewed research on the subject.
        
        So no, gender isn’t just a social construct. It’s a complex mix of social,psychological, and neurological phenomenon.
        
        It’s also, like sex, not nearly as binary as most people would like to believe.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        If you accept that gender roles are a social construct, surely you agree that race is a social construct? I might deeply want to be black because of social conditioning.
        
        You will say that physical gender is a matter of embryology (as you explained clearly above). But gender ROLES are not programmed by our physical development (Discuss….). There are trans people who deny absolutely that their identity is a developmental defect; they chose it, as some people choose to be gay. In that case, can’t I choose to be black? I want black skin and skin structure, a black voice and mannerisms, I want to be accepted by black people. A bit of tinkering with my melatonin genes, I ‘m sure it can be done.
      - danah sparkle
        
        I agree that race is a social construct.
        
        As far as people that believe that narrative you mention, whatever. There are flat earthers too. There probably are even people who transition for kicks and regret it (which is why I do not believe in the informed consent model)
        
        None of that has really anything to do with what I said, though. “Some people” say a lot of things. I don’t generally agree with “some people”
        
        I stand by what I wrote previously.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        Your developmental view of all trans people (at least, the ones who don’t regret it later) – is this a hunch on your part, or do you have reason to think it’s generally true?
      - danah sparkle
        
        I have reason to believe it’s generally, but probably not always true.
        
        Here’s why:
        
        Here’s a summary of some of the research presented below, presented as part of a lecture by Dr. Robert Sapolsky an American neuroendocrinologist, professor of biology, neuroscience, and neurosurgery at Stanford University, researcher and author
        
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3C4ZJ7HyuE
        
        Peer-Reviewed Papers on Nuerological gendered differences in the transsexual brain
        
        Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;
        
        http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/8/1900.abstract
        
        …the data implicate that transsexuality may be associated with sex-atypical physiological responses in specific hypothalamic circuits, possibly as a consequence of a variant neuronal differentiation.
        
        Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041
        
        http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full
        
        The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.
        
        Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.
        
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15724806
        
        Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking. In the human brain, structural diferences have been described that seem to be related to gender identity and sexual orientation.
        
        A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
        
        http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html
        
        Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones
        
        A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.
        
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961?dopt=Abstract
        
        We propose that the sex reversal of the INAH3 in transsexual people is at least partly a marker of an early atypical sexual differentiation of the brain and that the changes in INAH3 and the BSTc may belong to a complex network that may structurally and functionally be related to gender identity.
        
        White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study. – Rametti et al, J Psychiatr Res. 2010 Jun 8.
        
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024
        
        CONCLUSIONS: Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals.
        
        Regional cerebral blood flow changes in female to male gender identity disorder. – Tanaka et al, Psychiatry Clin Neurosci. 2010 Apr 1;64(2):157-61.
        
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20132527
        
        RESULTS: GID subjects had a significant decrease in rCBF in the left anterior cingulate cortex (ACC) and a significant increase in the right insula compared to control subjects.
        
        CONCLUSIONS: The ACC and insula are regions that have been noted as being related to human sexual behavior and consciousness. From these findings, useful insights into the biological basis of GID were suggested.
        
        Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35
        
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19955753?dopt=Abstract
        
        The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.
      - Sarah Datblygu
        
        Firstly- thank you, for engaging in debate and answering these questions and not branding people who ask questions as ‘transphobes’.
        
        Secondly- I have tried researching medical studies of the supposed neurological differences between trans and cis people, and I have found it inconclusive. I am aware of the biological changes within the foetus etc and I am aware that some people are born intersex or with XXY chromosomes etc, and I am sympathetic to people who are uncertain of their sexuality or have medical issues in this regard. However, as far as I’m aware, not every trans person undergoes a brain scan to see if they are neurologically different? We are asked to accept their transition (and it’s wider implications), on face value. And are left with a situation in which pre-op trans, self-identified ‘women’, are legally able to enter previously women-only spaces.
        
        It is my own feeling that whilst some trans people probably really do have some sort of neurological or chromosomal difference, others are people who society has sadly MADE to feel like they are in the wrong body, because of narrow and restrictive gender rules. I feel this is both detrimental to cis men and women, AND to some transsexuals, who in my opinion, might not be resorting to dangerous and painful surgery, if we lived in a more open and gender-liberal world.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        This is true. There are very few neurological studies (pace the claims of Barbara Barrett on this page) and I don’t think a scan would reveal any difference even if it was done. The campaign of trans people for acceptance should not rely on born-this-way arguments, especially in those cases where there is a developmental change that makes a genetic male appear deficient in the secondary sexual characteristics.
      - danah sparkle
        
        And that might be true. The psychiatrists do their best to screen out people who are transitioning for social reasons, but obviously they can’t get everyone.
        
        And as far as the brain scans? The most reliable data on those brain differences is in the limbic nucleus, which requires autopsy.
        
        Furthermore there are other neurological conditions which have a psychiatric diagnostic path, like schizophrenia.
        
        The fact is, we *don’t* live in a more “gender-liberal” world. As an anarcha-feminist, I’m just as much in support of that as you, but I also have to be pragmatic.
        
        I certainly am in support of gate-keeping as long as it’s constructive, and that would nail some of the false positives, but in the past part of that gatekeeping (and one of the most effective parts acutally) was a “real-life-test” which requires one to live in their professed gender full time for some period of time, usually a year. That means completely, and some of that conflicts with your concern over cis female-only spaces.
        
        As far as that though? I’m of the general opinion that the women’s restroom sign isn’t a talisman against rape. If some man wants to attack a woman in the restroom that sign won’t stop him. Furthermore, bad behavior in a restroom is still criminal. And finally cis on trans violence is infinitely more common in the women’s restroom, than trans on cis, which doesn’t really seem to happen with any amount of statistical significance (last time I looked I couldn’t even find any cases at all)
      - Sarah Datblygu
        
        Thank you for the medical info, sounds interesting.
        
        Re (cis)women-only spaces, I do think there is an issue here because pre-op self-identified trans women ARE legally allowed and indeed have, accessed spaces such as women-only gyms, which may have previously been places where raped or sexually abused women felt safe. Whilst I agree, trans on cis violence seems to be non-existent (apart from a story recounted on here earlier!), male on female violence is ubiquitous and (cis)women the world over are routinely abused, raped, forced into marriage etc – it is a serious and vastly widespread issue, and I think some areas of trans politics fail to address this point sufficiently.
        
        Please note- I am primarily referring to the aggressively PC sector of the trans lobby here, and not to all individual trans people, some of whom I’m sure are willing to have these discussions.
      - danah sparkle
        
        Part of the difficulty in having these kinds of discussions is because trans women are routinely monstered by Cathy Brennan, Janice Raymond, Sheila Jeffreys and others. So it’s hard to know who is being honest and who is attacking, when you hear the same rhetoric from others.
        
        That said, you’re getting into a really problematic area when you start bringing up safe spaces based on people’s perceptions.
        
        In the US, one of the chief arguments against racial integration. was a bathroom scare leveled against black people, which was just as specious and played on people’s emotional fears. The same argument has been dredged up to attack gay men and lesbian women – both in the general public, and in the case of lesbians, in early feminism.
        
        I can respect that some people are scared. But fear doesn’t trump personal safety, and when your perception of safety requires somebody who looks like me to make themselves vulnerable around *actual* men that’s really kind of oppressive and dangerous.
        
        I would no sooner ask you to use the men’s room, and I would not be any safer using the men’s room than you are.
        
        I’ve been sexually assaulted – you might even say raped although people’s metrics on that are different and I don’t want to get into it, except to say that ntercourse wasn’t involved but I felt pretty violated just the same, so I can understand that fear. I also have a lot of fear around cross dressing men because I was sexualized and objectified in a support group that was supposed to be a safe space.
        
        I have a better understanding of those same fears than you might have realized, based on personal experience with the very types of people you seem worried about – autogynephilic men. That’s why I’m a huge proponent of gatekeeping in the first place.
        
        That said, eventually, and with some therapy, I realized that those fears were *mine* and not necessarily based in reality. I still get really uncomfortable around transvestic men, but I can’t let myexperience at the hands of a few turn me into a bigot. My mother was raped and carjacked by a black man, and she held on to a profound fear of black men for years. Is it understandable? Yes! It’s a natural response to being traumatized. But is it reality? No. Does it mean we as a society should segregate black men from white women? Of course not.
      - Sarah Datblygu
        
        I see what you’re saying, but we do not live in a culture of black men raping white women (though of course it happens), but we DO live in a culture where men of all races rape and abuse women.
        
        I too have been sexually assaulted (not raped) and I personally am not fearful around men, but I can see why others who may have been raped might be..
        
        Anyway, interesting discussion!
      - danah sparkle
        
        We exist in a culture where cis men rape women, but we don’t exist in a culture where transsexual women rape cis women and abuse women.
        
        We *do* live in a culture where cis men rape trans women as well, at least as much.
      - Sarah Datblygu
        
        Well there is a further issue here that I was discussing with someone yesterday- and they posted several links to reported cases of pre-op trans women as having used their identification of ‘women’ to access women’s shelters and attack or rape them. I’m sure this is rare (can’t find links now, it wasn’t me that posted them), but I think it does highlight a problem with the issue of self-identification taken on face value. In that it can allow men to gain access to vulnerable women, which could not have happened prior to the legislation on trans rights.
      - danah sparkle
        
        I’ve never been a proponent of self-identification – in adults – for the purposes of public policy.
        
        I vehemently reject the informed consent model.
        
        I actually like the rules in my state, which will adjust all of a person’s gender markers, but requires doctor’s approval.
        
        I think it’s a happy compromise, over requiring surgical castration – which can be problematic for many reasons, but also doesn’t allow just anyone to claim they are a man or a woman.
        
        If most of the rhetoric around opposition to trans women in women’s spaces were centered instead around the medical and mental health organizations maintaining constructive gate keeping I think you’d find at least a plurality of trans people wouldn’t object.
        
        That said, I tend to distrust most of the sites that claim “proof” of trans women assaulting cis women in segregated facilities because they’re usually sourced by the same small crew that used to host the now defunct RadFemHub and they tend to have a reputation for presenting misleading information, conflating transvestites with transsexuals, and even just making things up.
      - danah sparkle
        
        Over the short term, clearly the only viable issue here in terms of danger seems to be transvestic men masquerading as trans, which is why I am a firm supporter of gatekeeping within the medical community.
        
        More than that, I think we’re reaching a point where this whole issue is becoming moot as trans children are finally being raised in ways that are gender appropriate for them, and are getting treatment, including puberty blockers.
        
        The rise of information on the subject and public awareness has actually *helped* that happen, and will benefit everybody.
        
        If everyone supports early transition, you’ll see even the perception of a problem go away within a generation.
      - Sarah Datblygu
        
        Just seen this- I see what you are saying. You would refer to those pre-op self-identified ‘women’ as transvestic? My issue though, is that when you’re taking self-identification at face value, how can you tell the difference?
      - danah sparkle
        
        > You would refer to those pre-op self-identified ‘women’ as transvestic?
        
        No. There is a certain subset of men that cross dress, – actually it’s very common among straight males, especially white males (for some reason). Some of those men confuse their proclivities for gender dysphoria and desire HRT and GRS procedures. Even when fully operated on, those men would be transvestic men who had surgery. They will almost certainly regret it, which is why they used to be screened out – and usually still are, but not always.
        
        I do not take self-identification in adults at face value. I believe that if you have gone through the rather lengthy and difficult process of getting your gender markers changed than at least for the purposes of public policy that should be enough.
        
        I have not had bottom surgery, because I do not have the money yet. However, all of my documentation, state and federal, says “female”. That took work. That took a year of living as a woman full time – several court appearances, a mountain of paperwork, sign off by my medical and mental health professionals (all cis women, by the way) and dealing with my employer, friends, family, everyone regarding my transition. I think the chances of a person going through this process in order to assault people is pretty unrealistic.
      - Sarah Datblygu
        
        I agree, but the examples I mentioned earlier were in (I THINK) Canada and the UK – where I think different rules apply re self-identification.
      - danah sparkle
        
        And I wouldn’t know what the specific laws were. I only know what I think the ideal would be. My state happens to abide by something very close to my ideal, and it’s probably because the person that’s been instrumental in crafting state policy in that regard runs in the same circles that I do. She’s great.
      - Piquette
        
        “And finally cis on trans violence is infinitely more common in the women’s restroom, than trans on cis, which doesn’t really seem to happen with any amount of statistical significance (last time I looked I couldn’t even find any cases at all)”
        
        Oh, please! Women are attacking transgender males in the women’s washroom? What does that mean? That women run away from men in the ladies room, and this hurts men’s feelings, so it’s an “attack”?
        
        Don’t lie. “Cis on trans violence” means that men, not women, are hurting transgender people. Please, name the problem clearly and unambiguously.
        
        And, men impersonating women to gain access to women’s spaces and look for victims, is not uncommon. In Ontario, a serial rapist used Toby’s law to get into women’s shelters, where he sexually assaulted two women.
        
        For more examples, see:
        
        http://outofmypantiesnow.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/when-is-90-not-substantially-all/
      - danah sparkle
        
        This was two cis women beating a trans woman to the point of seizure.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glrh2JrtFOU
        
        That website you posted doesn’t distinguish between transvestites and transsexuals, and it does so with the express purpose of monstering transsexual women.
      - danah sparkle
        
        I should add that Dr. John Money believed that society and environment could shape gender identity and his theory cost his patient, David Reimer his life.
        
        I’m not saying that this disproves it absolutely, but I am saying that it’s compelling evidence against it, and I have yet to see any compelling evidence *for* it.
      - danah sparkle
        
        As far as the stigma trans women get for transistioning to an oppressed group.
        
        That’s not trans women’s fault. It’s the fault of patriarchy.
        
        Believe it or not, most of us didn’t ask to be trans. We’re just doing what we need to to survive.
        
        Testosterone was poisoning the crap out of me. It was driving me crazy. There was no way I could continue. My options were drown myself in drugs (which I did), take my own life (which I tried), or transition.
        
        As soon as I got off the T my whole world changed – even before I looked any different.
    - Jeffrey Vernon
      
      Further to Sarah’s post about would-be black people; I do actually know an adult male in his 50s who is deeply convinced that he never grew up (as a matter of developmental psychology). He insists that he is a child of 10. You can understand the spectrum of opinion about this. You will tell me, perhaps, that he is obviously wrong, that there is no kidult community or lobby, etc – but he would call you a bigot, a grownup, and (odd, this) a straight.
      - danah sparkle
        
        I’ve addressed this below, in response to Sarah.
- Jeffrey Vernon
  
  The unhinged rage (or even the determination to find enemies and feel like a victim) is indeed unproductive. Your post has thrown up something new; your language borrows a lot from the rhetoric of therapy. Resocialisation, working through, privilege, realignment, transition. My first reaction to this was unfavourable. But this is because you are describing a state of mind that I have no access to. Many trans posters on this page make no allowance for this – they forget how long it took them to reach this point, and just demand instant acceptance for a condition that most of us find extremely odd. When they don’t get it, they start name-calling and playing the victim. This is politically a disaster for them. Trans people who write in public have to show the positive content of their lives, not react, rage and mope.
  - danah sparkle
    
    My language actually does borrow from therapy, because it’s a necessary part of transitioning. It’s not just hormones and surgery. There’s a lot of really difficult mental things going on, and to unpack, and process them in a healthy way generally requires some help.
Erik Vanderhoff

This article makes me incredibly happy: Embracing difference and respect while calling this churlish, spoiled behavior exactly what it is: The petty concerns of spoiled people with the luxury to kvetch about it.
- danah sparkle
  
  Who exactly are these spoiled people you are talking about?
sinmantyx

“The supreme irony of intersectionality is that it both barracks ‘traditional’ feminists for ignoring the issues of differently abled and differently ethnic women while at the same time telling them they have no right to discuss them because they don’t understand them”

Wow – what frame of mind do you have to be in to think that “don’t ignore me” and “don’t talk over me” is some sort of dichotomy?
- danah sparkle
  
  That’s what I thought to.
  
  Can you say white privilege?
  - Jeffrey Vernon
    
    This use of the word privilege is problematic. If it means that a non-trans woman must acknowledge the presence of trans people but may not take part in a discussion (note, JB wasn’t claiming the right to trump any debate by being cis), then you’re not challenging privilege so much as finding a neat new way of refusing a platform.
    - danah sparkle
      
      That’s the thing. It doesn’t mean that. I talk about black issues in America all the time. cis women’s reproductive issues, immigration issues. Nobody is preventing me from talking about them. They just don’t want me speaking over them or ignoring them.
      
      That’s not the same thing as silencing somebody.
      
      ETA: And no, you can’t possibly understand. I’ll never understand what it’s like to be a cis man, a black woman or a migrant worker. That doesn’t mean that I can’t have an opinion, it just means I defer to the opinions of people who are, because not only is it respectful, but they’ve forgotten more than I will ever learn about being one of those people, so it’s a good idea to listen a lot more than speak.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        so are you renouncing privilege when you refrain from speaking over them? Does everyone carry privilege around, like original sin? I’m not being facetious – but the concept does seem to have a marked theological flavour
      - danah sparkle
        
        No, I can’t renounce privilege. It’s there whether I want it or not. The only thing I can do is choose to ignore it, or choose to examine it. Ignoring it is what perpetuates it, but it’s what those with it are trained to do.
        
        I wouldn’t compare it to original sin. The fact that I benefit from institutionalized anti-black racism in my country is not my fault. I do however feel, that as one of it’s beneficiaries, I have a moral obligation to examine it, deconstruct it, and be careful not to perpetuate it through my own actions.
      - Sarah Datblygu
        
        But much of the PC trans politics DOES involve silencing people, that’s the problem. I recently read a pretty ridiculous piece on a blog about what IS and ISN’T acceptable, and it stated that one must NEVER under any circumstances use the phrase ‘man in a dress’ – and I thought, what never? What do I call Grayson Perry then? There were a millions of other strict DO’s and DONT’S that mostly seemed to involve people being restricted in what they can say or do.. These things are divisive and don’t help anyone in my opinion.
        
        I also think that this whole ‘check your privilege’ culture is pretty damaging and essentially just closes down open discussion. People responding to earnest questions with things like ‘Wow.’ and that kind of thing. There are an infinite number of things that may bestow privilege on a person: money, good-looks, race, education, who your parents were, height, weight, career, contacts.. it never ends! I’m in no way denying that the idea of privilege is significant and I’m certainly not in denial re white privilege or anything- but I don’t think it’s constructive to progressive debate to get bogged down in labels which are kind of designed to make someone feel like they must shut up unless they have direct experience of something. I’m a feminist and have not ONCE resorted to accusing any man of ‘mansplaining’ I’m proud to say! Men might sometimes know shit about what they’re talking about but they might also have something far more incisive and intelligent to say than a woman- so its wrong to imply that lack of direct experience necessarily negates what someone has to say.
        
        As I said- I do not deny the existence of privilege of course, but I fear that this new and ever-narrowing notion of what’s acceptable language, is going to have a detrimental effect on political debate.
      - danah sparkle
        
        Leftist Tumblr culture is rife with deontological ethics, so yes, it does become a game of “check your privilege” nonsense. That’s not what I take issue with about what Julie wrote, but I addressed that already.
        
        Of course it’s problematic, but your anecdote involving some oddball on the internet doesn’t really say anything.
        
        Here’s how I’d address the “man in a dress” remark. It’s wrong, both factually, and morally. It’s an insult, and considering the amount of violence directed at trans women due to the beliefs behind it, coupled with the fact that it’s something many trans women hear before they are assaulted it’s a pretty serious thing to call somebody that, and can be very triggering.
      - Jeffrey Vernon
        
        It’s not wrong factually, in the case of Grayson Perry (a male British sculptor who goes in public under the persona of ‘Claire.’) We cannot any of us be expected to operate by permanent self-censoring speech codes just in case someone around us is susceptible to ‘triggering’. The assumption that we are surrounded by damaged people is not conducive to free and lively discussion.

Don’t you dare tell me to check my privilege

Today’s left is a competition in shouting one another down

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