How Marine Le Pen is winning France’s gay vote

The Front National now has the support of a quarter of Paris’s gay voters – and only 16 per cent of the straight ones

24 January 2015

9:00 AM

24 January 2015

9:00 AM

A week before the attack on Charlie Hebdo, France’s leading gay magazine, Têtu, announced the winner of its annual beauty contest. His name was Matthieu Chartraire, and he was 22, doe-eyed and six-packed, with perfectly groomed hair, stubble and eyebrows. A pin-up in every way — until he started talking.

To the anger of many of the magazine’s readers, the Adonis of 2015 turns out to be an outspoken supporter of the Front National. Têtu’s editor-in-chief, Yannick Barbe, refused to play censor. ‘It’s within his rights to vote for the FN even if we don’t share his beliefs,’ he said. ‘This is a beauty pageant, and our readers’ vote was only based on a single criterion! He only stands for himself and not for the gay community.’

Barbe has a point (although from next year, it’s worth noting, entrants for Têtu’s beauty contest will have to sign a code of ethics that rejects discrimination). But his assertion that Chartraire does not stand for the gay community overlooks a trend that has been accelerating over the last decade: French gay votersare falling for the Front National’s leader, Marine Le Pen. A survey by the polling firm Ifop indicates a dramatic increase in support for the FN among homosexual and bisexual voters since the French presidential elections of April 2012. It showed, for instance, that in Paris 26 per cent of homosexuals supported Le Pen, compared with 16 per cent of hetero-sexuals.

‘After the financial crisis started you could tell that a switch [to the far right] was happening across the nation. But the fact that it was happening in the gay community was particularly telling,’ Didier Lestrade, a gay activist who has written a book on the subject, tells me. ‘We knew that not all gay people are from the left. Even so, it was hard for my generation [he is 56] to believe that anti-Arab and anti-black opinions were starting to pop up on apps like Grindr and Cruise.’

An insight into the phenomenon comes from Patrick McCarthy, a young gay blogger who lives in Bordeaux. ‘Up until 2005, Bordeaux was a very gay-friendly city,’ he says. ‘Same-sex couples could openly walk down the street holding hands without any problems. However, in the space of two months, five gay men were murdered in the city. The blame was put on Bordeaux’s Muslim community since some of these hate crimes were carried out by people of Arabic origins.’

The Bordeaux gay scene has dwindled since the attacks, but McCarthy says that he, like Lestrade, is alarmed at the way that assaults by a few Arabs have created a major polemical opposition between gays and Muslims. The Front National now offers a welcoming home to gay people who feel judged by Muslims and share wider concerns about immigration and the loss of French identity.

That gay men now feel comfortable with the Front National is the result of a deliberate effort by its leader, Marine Le Pen, who has pursued a programme of detoxification (the French term is ‘de-diabolisation’) ever since she took control of the party in 2011. Her father, Jean Marie Le Pen, who led the FN from its founding in 1972 until Marine took over, described homosexuality as a ‘biological and social anomaly’. In the 1980s he argued that all individuals with Aids should be kept in isolation, and in the 1990s was still declaring that ‘There are no queens in the National Front.’

By contrast, Marine has worked hard to expand the FN’s membership beyond obvious bigots, racists and skinheads. She has publicly condemned anti-Semitism and insists that, far from being racist, her party is the only one that defends secularity and democracy against Islamisation. A key part of this strategy is using the Islamist threat to court the sort of people that the far right has traditionally persecuted. It’s working. In the 2012 presidential elections, Le Pen won 13.5 per cent of the Jewish vote. A surprising enough statistic, but her appeal to gay activists has created even more waves. Just before Christmas, her deputy Florian Philippot was outed as gay by Closer: the same magazine that exposed Hollande’s affair with Julie Gayet. Around the same time, Le Pen appointed a new adviser: Sébastien Chenu, one of the founders of the activist organisation GayLib. FN traditionalists complained loudly that their party was being taken over by a gay cabal. (Those complaining included Marine’s 25-year-old niece, Marion Maréchal-Le Pen, an MP and a rising star in the party.)

What, beyond support against the threat of Islamic fundamentalists, does Marine Le Pen’s FN claim to offer to a gay political activist? Officially Le Pen does not support the legalisation of gay marriage, which the French government passed last year. But like other far right leaders in Europe, notably Geert Wilders of Holland’s Freedom party, she sees the value of the gay vote. When huge demonstrations were held against gay marriage in Paris in 2013, she refused to take part. She seems able to walk the conceptual tightrope between what her party’s old membership wants and what its potential members need to hear. Her response to the outing of Philipott was to attack Closer and change the subject: ‘Florian Philippot is entitled to a private life as much as François Hollande,’ she said.

Switching attention back to the hapless president was a shrewd move. Hollande’s dismal popularity ratings (at the end of last year they sank to 12 per cent, the lowest recorded score for a sitting president) also contribute to the Front National’s success. Although Hollande pushed through the legalisation of gay marriage last year, many left-wing gay voters were disappointed that he failed to give the bill his personal support until the last minute. The centre-right UMP, meanwhile, issued a legal challenge the moment the bill had been approved by vote. Even critics such as Lestrade recognise that the FN offers more to ambitious young gay political activists than the more mainstream parties. ‘I think if you are gay, you’re going to make a difference there in a way you won’t get a chance to in the Socialist party or the UMP,’ he says.

Bruno Clavet is an out and proud gay activist for the FN. A politics graduate and a former underwear model, he tells me that when he was 18 he worked for Nicolas Sarkozy during the 2007 presidential election, but switched to the FN just before the most recent one. I ask him if it troubles him that his party has a strong anti-gay past. ‘I don’t think the FN is anti-gay,’ he replies. ‘We are against ghettoisation [into racial or sexual communities]. For me there is only one community, it’s the national community — the French people.’ This is the new spirit of French nationalism.

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Show comments
  • Great story.

    Thank you.

  • Sean Grainger

    Presumably the basic arithmetic applies: 1 per cent of 12million = 120,000; 16 per cent of 99 per cent = 1,900,800. The kind of odds Bismarck liked.

  • Darule Vozhak

    Mmm you can’t really be surprised here, there really is on average (not on average), more ingrained homophobia and the willingness to act on it by immigrant communities. In France that happens to be some in the Arab community and obviously LGBTQ people feel slighted and abandoned because the left and the mainstream parties and media are refusing to address the problem. They literally have no choice but to align with the party who dislikes them but have not acted on it. It really is a sad situation.

    • greggf

      “…. because the left and the mainstream parties and media are refusing to address the problem.”

      That’s not the only social issue they (above) refuse to address and among the reasons for the FN’s growing widespread support. Identity, cultural relativism and national integration have become a discordant consequence of the narrow Left-Right politics currently on offer in France and other parts of Europe.

    • Grace Ironwood

      Can’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good in the circumstances. I worry about my brother every time he and his partner go and stay with friends in the Netherlands.

      • NOYB12345

        Oh dear. My heart goes out to you and your brother. : (

    • Travis458

      They refuse to address the problem because they are the ones behind the problem, they have created too many poors in their socialist dictatorships, so they export them to other countries hoping that those millions of useless leeches will vote socialist in exchange for subsidies, and help them create a new socialist dictatorship. I also suspect they are the ones behind illegal immigration mafia, as they always, always side with illegal immigrants and denounce any measure taken to address the problem, and because they are no angels but greedy and selfish bastards it could only be because they benefit if the problem remains unsolved.

    • Maybe, but equally it could be seen as a sign that the FN is growing, and therefore is taking on board a more devise electorate.

    • Grace Ironwood

      Marine le Pen seems for some years to have been firmly engaged in modernising her party beyond the beliefs of her dear old dad, who is more of an embarrassment than a representative these days.

      As for Wilders and co -they’ve always been explicitly for the civilisational values of liberty-including that of sexual identity.

  • edithgrove

    and in case anyone had forgotten, the militant wing of the RofP has a habit of chucking gay people off high buildings, which also may have influenced young Matthieu’s thinking.

    • Pootles

      Indeed. And although things haven’t got that far here (notwithstanding the violent anti-gay activities of so-called ‘Muslim Patrols’ in London), it can be very uncomfortable to be gay in an area where RoP has a presence – which is why my brother moved away from Glasgow to a rural area of S-W Scotland, where he has no problems at all.

      • Darren Withers

        I am gay and live in glasgow and i do not in any way feel threatened or uncomfortable among Muslims. I think you people just make shit up on here.

        • Pootles

          Well, Glasgow is a pretty big place. He lived in the Pollockshields area, not far from the mosque. Don’t confuse your own personal experience with that of everyone else. I wasn’t presenting my brother’s experience as a universal one either – but it was relevant to the thread.

        • Realismista

          Stop being such a useful – or should it be useless – idiot, Darren. Any western city with a large proportion of Muslims represents civil rights and personal safety issues for its Jewish, gay and female inhabitants. Sorry, it’s true. Maybe Glasgow is just behind the curve but try living in a city like Brussels – which I did and I’m gay too – with a very large number of unassimilated Muslims some of whom show very active dislike towards obvious gays and Jews and uncovered women on the streets and you will begin to understand why some Jews and some gays are either leaving cities like Brussels, Antwerp, Paris and Amsterdam or are staying and voting for political parties that in the past persecuted them.

          People like Pim Fortuyn, Theo van Gogh (both murdered for criticising or satirising Islamists), Ayaan Hirsi Ali (driven out of the Netherlands for criticising Islamists) and Geert Wilders and their gay supporters did not pop up from nowhere but in response to a real threat to western civil liberties and law and order in European cities…the same is also happening in parts of France, Belgium, Germany, Scandinavia and the UK. The kind of people who murdered the journalists at Charlie Hebdo and their supporters are the kind of people who also wish ill towards gay people: the French have noticed even if you haven’t.

    • Blindsideflanker

      Indeed along with the left siding with the RoP it doesn’t leave them much option .

  • anyfool

    Have you joined UKIP yet Matthew, go on, you know it makes sense. could be the Party of Fruitcakes could be a better option, than the Party of Beheaders or should that be Peace.

  • Sean L

    Someone posted a link to the website of the supposedly “far right” English Defence League. I defy anyone to find any content that merits that tag; that wouldn’t win the assent of all but a few diehard radicals or professional public sector jobs worth agitators. I conclude “far right” is media speak for what would ordinarily be termed *normal* by most decent people.

    • John Croston

      “Far right”? Perfectly right? Consistently right? It is quite obvious that the “far right” have been spot on about immigration and Islam for decades. It’s now a case of “Told you so” after “Told you so” after “Told you so.”

      • red2black

        Yet they never seem to get anywhere.

    • John

      “We had fought for three years to keep fascists and racists out of the EDL. When I attended our demonstration in Manchester I saw White Power flags that didn’t represent me.

      “Am I willing to be the public face for them? No I’m not.”

      -Tommy Robinson, founder and former leader of the English Defense League.

      Your idea of normal might be White Power drivel, but your idea is wrong, chap.

      • Sean L

        I was going by the website and Facebook page where there were posts from Hindus and Sikhs and nothing remotely ‘white power’ related. Hardly surprising that such types show up on the street, though. But why should they be blamed for that? After all people wave Trotskyist placards at Labour Party and trade union sponsored events. It doesn’t follow that the Labour Party and/or Unison is itself Trotskyist. Why should the EDL be deprived of being similarly judged by its own published words rather than those of extremist opportunists? Otherwise I don’t know where you get the idea that I’d find it normal. I actually find racial hatred loathsome, my own wife being black.

        • NOYB12345

          It makes me think of that phrase “but not all muslims” … except that rabid stereotypes are perfectly acceptable when it comes to these “right wing” parties.

        • Darren Withers

          You have obviously not came across those vile hooligans much. I can assure you that no sane person who is not a racist bigot would go near the EDL.

          • Sean L

            But I’m not a racist bigot and am sympathetic. Doubtless there are some thugs amongst them when they show up on the street. But then look what they’re up against? There’s far more evidence of racist and religious bigotry in the other direction. I suppose you have to decide whose side you’re on. . .

      • edithgrove

        Yes but there’ll another story to come out about him I’m guessing, in 50 years + the time it will take to appoint someone to chair the proceedings.

    • Ed_Burroughs

      I couldn’t agree more, the EDL simply does not fit within the lef/right spectrum, it is a single issue protest organization. I had a chat with a buch of EDL’ers a few years ago, bumped into them (literally) in a bar; they thought I might be a member of UAF because of my long hair, which was amusing. I think very many EDL’ers are totally ingnorant of and/or apathetic to party politics anyway

      • redsquirrel

        Agree, and is there anything wrong with that? Many people just aren’t into politics but that doesn’t mean they don’t have valid opinions. They know what is happening in their towns and they don’t like it.

        • Darren Withers

          In other words they are a bunch of ignorant bigots.

          • redsquirrel

            well that’s a bit reductive don’t you think. They are a bunch of upset people and there is plenty to be upset about. Massive sweeping statements like that and what is in the article are not warranted though. How would you like your out-group spoken about like that? hmm? I think maybe you are the bigot Darren.

          • Maturecheese

            So not liking what is going on in ones area is ‘bigoted’ and ‘ignorant’ Well you learn something every day

          • JMW

            You are a one hit wonder of ignorance. It isn’t bigotry to rebel against Islam when Islam wants to behead you. There will be no “Western civilization” under Sharia Law. THAT is what people are fighting for….. the continuation of Western civilization.

    • rtj1211

      ‘Far Right’ was a label applied 15 years ago and nobody ever revisits. The real problem for many political groupings who are ahead of the median position at the start of their campaign is that they get labelled at the start and never get allowed to modify that label, because it suits the big rumps in the middle to get the Press to keep applying that label.

      It’ all part of the anti-democratic hegemony of the Establishment, you know.

      After all the suffragettes were fighting for universal suffrage for women which now would be ‘far right’ to revoke’. In those days, many women were breaking the law and being sent to prison, which is pretty much the definition of ‘extreme’. Same with those campaigning for homosexual legality in the 1940s and 1950s……

    • Cyril Sneer

      I’ve said this many times before… ‘far right’ is a political persuasion but the EDL are not a political group, they’re a single social issue group. Repeatedly, the media, lefties get this wrong by attempting to discredit them by calling them ‘far right’ – ignorance is what defines lefties and the establishment.

      • Darren Withers

        They are a bunch of hooligans who miss the brawls after football matches. They are too stupid to be a political group.

      • Gwangi

        Yes, true. I do wish we had an anti-Islam movement in the UK, like those in Germany and other countries, which were most certainly NOT seen as far right or hooligan bigoted groupings. Because it is certain that most native Brits detest the way these vile Islamofascists are living amongst us and plotting our demise (whilst claiming our benefits, free healthcare/education etc etc etc).

      • Grace Ironwood

        This single-issue idea is quite a reasonable analysis of the EDL. A bit like when The Greens’s were just about the environment. “Far right” is defined by a strict palette of beliefs not subscribed to by the EDL, but the organisation and Tommy Robinson does seem to have struggled to with entryist, hijacking tactics by far right elements: it’s one of the reasons Robinson gave for leaving and it’s a great pity. This and the behaviour of the uglies has damaged the organisation irretrievably.

        It’s not always just ignorance in the media, although it’s amazing what well-meaning solipsistic young people will believe. There’s been a fair amount of outright mendacity with the smarter operators, including those in the state(especially the police force) Many of these people knew exactly what they were doing when piling it on with their mischaracterisation of the EDL -or for that matter, UKIP.

    • Cornelius Bonkers


  • Dutch Venter

    I suppose gays don’t like the idea of France resembling Saudi Arabia.

    • Ed  


      • JohnCrichton89

        When you look at any country with a substancial Muslim demographic and realistically reconcile that with the idea, that, we too will one day be living in a Muslim majority UK, you will start to think of this statement in a whole new light

        Pakistan, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, etc………Soundly Saudi Arabia doesn’t sound so bad.

        I would actually consider it wishful thinking on the part of any Parisians, or indeed Europeans, that look at the Muslim demographic growing in their country and believe they are going to end up similair to Saudi Arabia.

        When I was a teenager I had always planned to live in Paris for a while, I had best strike it off the bucket list before it’s gone.

        • BoiledCabbage

          Live in Paris and join the fight! Otherwise you will remember how much of a coward you have been for the rest of your days.

          • JohnCrichton89

            I fully intent to, my point was the fight is already over……. it just simple arithmetic.
            They are out-breeding the French, when there are enough of them they will vote in a dictator.

            There are so many other places I have to go see, Sweden, Denmark etc.
            Funny that a European like me can’t actually afford to move to any of the places IN EUROPE, just yet, but 3rd world Arabians get all expenses paid trips courtesy of our taxes.

          • Grace Ironwood

            John Crichton, If that’s your view of France, I’m afraid Sweden will disappoint!

          • Oddstar7

            The situation is perhaps not quite as dire as you make it out to be, or at least not as dire in quite that way. The Muslim fertility rate in France is higher than the non-Muslim rate, but only by about 0.8, and the gap is still declining. The gap between Muslims and non-Muslims for Europe as a whole is only 0.7, and likewise still falling. The real problem is that this is the result not of any resurgence in fertility among non-Muslims. France actually has the highest non-Muslim fertility rate in Europe at 1.9, but that’s still well below replacement; the Europeans are going extinct all on their own.

          • JohnCrichton89

            This fails to take into account mass immigration of Muslims, many of which have a high fertility rate and come with multiple wives.

            And Europeans would not go extinct on their own, statistics damned statistics and lies. The average is s serious over generalisation of all French demographics, for example. Those who have small families, or none at all, will not pass on the idea to their children………. the word for it escapes me, but it works similarly to superbugs in hospitals.

            The professional work culture that doesn’t have time for families above the replacement rate WOULD have been self defeating, whilst those people promoting a higher birth rate and larger families would have been self promoting…………. we could have bounced backed.

            That is until champaign socialists decided they didn’t want a financial infrastructure change that would also effect them, so they simply imported Muslims to keep the restaurants cheap

          • Oddstar7

            The data for Muslim fertility rates in Europe include the rates for recent immigrants. Also, the fertility rate for many of the source countries for Muslim immigrants to Europe is also in decline. Algeria, for example, which has been one of the major sources of Muslims migrants to France, has a fertility rate of 2.8 and falling, just about the same as the Muslim rate in France. Morocco and Tunisia, the other big sources of Muslim immigration to France, are even lower, at 2.7 and 2.2 respectively.

            As for French fertility rates recovering on their own, anything is possible, but it must be noted that the decline in fertility is a global phenomenon. There is currently only one developed country with a fertility rate above replacement (so it is possible), and even many poor countries are seeing their fertility rates collapse, with many already below replacement. It’s not impossible for France to buck the trend, but it does not seem likely. It is true that, over time, the fertility rate of any society will approach that of the most fertile subgroup within that society, if and only if that subgroup can maintain its higher fertility over time.

          • JohnCrichton89

            Thanks for the info, will check it out. Dare I hope, that I am wrong ?

          • Oddstar7

            You are more than welcome. And there is always hope. That being said, I don’t want to suggest that the information I was pointing indicate that everything is fine; on the contrary, the data indicate that the West is going extinct, and much of the rest of humanity is following not far behind. Things are not fine, but there is always hope.

          • cmflynn

            You’re not wrong, sadly. Although the Muslim fertility rate is declining in many countries it never becomes lower than the non Muslim fertility rate of that country so the outcome is the same although the time scale may be different. Another factor which is ignored by the ‘its not so bad as you think’ tribe is the age at which women have their children. Non Muslim women are waiting longer and longer before having their first child while Muslim women are much more likely to become mothers in their teens.

          • DFCtomm

            You can’t look at it as simply reproduction. Mexicans in the U.S. have a higher birth rate than in Mexico. Why? It’s the reconquista. Reproduction has been weaponized. I think the Muslim population has made this same realization. I’m too lazy to look it up, but there are quotes from Imams saying just that. I’ll bet fertility rates for Muslims in Europe remain steady even if they are dropping in Muslim nations.

          • Oddstar7

            I don’t doubt that there are many who would like very much to weaponize reproduction, but it does not follow that they will succeed. It is true that the Mexican-Americans have a higher fertility rate than Mexicans in Mexico, 2.5 for the former and 2.4 for the latter, although those data are a few years old (as of 2012, the fertility rate in Mexico was down to 2.2, or just replacement). The difference, however, is not very large, and likely can be explained by the fact that the Mexican-American population is younger, on average, than the population of Mexico; immigrants tend to be younger, on average, than the population of their source country, because young people are more likely to decide to move to another country, and young people are also more fertile, on average. It is also worth noting that the fertility rate among Mexican-Americans born in the US is substantially lower than that of Mexican-Americans born in Mexico–about 2.1 or 2.2 for the former, about 2.7 for the former. Pretty clearly, then, the fertility rate of Mexican-Americans is declining to a level similar to that of other Americans. Again, I do not mean to suggest that importing huge numbers of Mexicans was a good idea, but it is very unlikely that they will ever become a majority, or even close to a majority, of the American population.

          • cmflynn

            And is there any country in the world with a ‘mixed’ population where the non Muslims have a fertility rate higher than the Muslim?

          • Oddstar7

            I know of one case, although it depends how you count. If you look at Israel without the territories, the Jewish fertility rate is lower than the Muslim fertility rate, although at the rate at which the former has been climbing and the latter falling, that will no longer be the case within five years. If you include the West Bank, however, the Jewish fertility rate is higher. If you look at just the West Bank, obviously, the Jewish fertility rate is much higher than the Muslim fertility rate, and rising while the latter is still falling.

          • cmflynn

            You’ve raised a very interesting point and one that is rarely addressed. The fact is that the ‘more extreme’ of every religion have larger families. Thus the Jews who go to live in the West Bank are more dedicated Zionists. You see the same thing in the UK among Protestants. While the C of E is moribund and most other sects are in steep decline the Exclusive Plymouth Brethren is increasing rapidly due to their very high fertility rate. The same is true of Catholics. While the Catholic fertility rate in general is hardly higher that the general population, the fertility rate among the more dedicated ‘Traditionalists’ is much higher. The struggle going on at the moment is how much the Muslim population in the UK can be ‘liberalised’ in the way Protestants, Catholics and Jews have been liberalised in the past 100 years. This is what the ‘British values’ stuff is really all about

          • Oddstar7

            That’s true, but remember that the Muslim fertility rate is collapsing even in the absence of political or social liberalization. Turkey, just to pick one example, has a fertility rate of 2.1 (below replacement) and falling, even as Turkey has become more Islamic and less secular. Iran has a fertility rate of 1.9, the same as the non-Muslim population of France and only 0.1 higher than the non-Muslim population of Great Britain, even though Iran is, officially at least, thoroughly Islamic. (It’s probably the case, however, that the vast majority of the Iranian population has become thoroughly secularized.)

          • cmflynn

            These raw fertility rates are deceptive. An important factor is the age at which women have their children. Many non Muslim women wait until their mid thirties or even forties before having their first child. Do a little thought experiment: Suppose a group have a fertility rate of 3 children at around the age of 20. At around 40 a women of this group will have around 9 grandchildren. At 60 she’ll have around 27 great grandchildren and at 80, 81 great grandchildren. If she lives to be 100 she’ll have a total of around 363 descendants. Compare this to a group where the women have 2 children at around 33. The women of this group can expect to have 4 grandchildren at around 66 and 8 great grandchildren at around 100, a total of 14 descendants. Key in whichever numbers you like the results are still ‘dire’ for the non Muslim population.

          • Oddstar7

            I don’t think that’s quite right. Fertility rate is a measurement of the number of children the average woman will have over her lifetime. If one woman has only two children, both in her twenties, while another has also has two children, both in her thirties, and that pattern is reproduced in each succeeding generation of both families, the first woman is more likely to live to see her grandchildren and some of her great-grandchildren, but they will have the same number of descendants. The first woman might have them sooner, but the numbers will be equal. Furthermore, I know of no reason to think that as the Muslim fertility rate declines to match that of the European norm, Muslim women will not also delay childbirth. It would surprise me very much if Muslim women in Europe had only one or two children each, but continued to start having them very young. Do you have any data to suggest that that is the case?

          • cmflynn

            Imagine two groups each of four couples each whose descendants marry within the group. If the fertility rate is 2 then each will have 8 children and 8 grandchildren etc. If one group has a fertility rate of 3 then that group will have 12 children, 18 grandchildren and 27 great grandchildren. Now introduce a time factor. Suppose the group with a fertility rate of 3 has those children around the age of 20. At the age of 40 they have around 18 grandchildren at the age of 60, 27 great grandchildren, at the age of 80, 40 great great grandchildren. So after 60 years the group with a fertility of 3 will outnumber the group with a fertility of 2 by a factor of 5 i.e. 40 to 8. You don’t need to be a Mathematician to see the situation of the UK is dire with the fertility rate of the non Muslim population actually less than 2.

          • Oddstar7

            It’s certainly true that if one group has a fertility rate of two and the other of three, the one with three will eventually outnumber the one with two if nothing changes. The question is whether anything is changing. It’s a fairly well-established fact that things are changing: the Muslim fertility rate is collapsing. It is probably the case, although I do not have data to back this up, that as the Muslim fertility rate falls, the Muslim generation time (the age at which the average Muslim woman has children) is rising. It would be very surprising if that were not the case. Furthermore, the thing to remember is that the non-Muslim population in Europe is starting from a much higher base. So even though the Muslim proportion will continue to increase for a while longer, it will never be a majority. Again, though, that does not mean that Europe doesn’t have a very serious problem.

          • DFCtomm

            I’m afraid you’re wrong about that. We, of course, will never know until it’s happened, but I’m afraid it’s the Muslims who are in for a big shock in the end. They’re facing the original barbarians. The people who industrialized genocide, and they think they can take their territory simply by breeding? I think in the end the slaughter will be historic, but it won’t be Europeans at the hands of Muslims.

    • laurence

      Curiously, though, the idiot boy-child Owen Jones is all for parts of Britain resembling not only Saudi Arabia but those other Moslem socio-cultural paradises, Somalia and rural Bangladesh. We are to be grateful for the ensuing ‘vibrancy’ and ‘cultural interaction’ that immigration from these fine countries provides. Perhaps he thinks he is immune from Moslem homophobia because he scribbles for The Guardian. Perhaps he would like to travel to Tehran and debate the issue with an Ayatollah?

      • will91

        No need to go all the way to Tehran, I’d invite him to live in Minaret Hamlets or Bradford, so he could witness first-hand this “dynamism” and “excitement”.

      • AM

        I’ve been to Tehran, it’s a nice place, with an interesting culture and great people. Your characterization of it as some sort of ghetto is ludicrous.

        • Ed  

          The Iranian people are quite nice. It’s their government that’s not. After all, when they tried to rebel a couple of years ago, they begged Obama for help. Of course, he didn’t listen.

          • AM

            I don’t think the Iranian people want Obama to stick his nose into their country. Every Iranian will oppose foreign invasion.

          • Ed  

            Did you follow the news during the Green uprising? The Iranian people were chanting in the streets for the US / Obama to intervene on their behalf, against their own government.

            The US is still Reagan’s City on the Hill; Obama just doesn’t like it.

          • RCD

            “City on the Hill”? Puhleeze! And like I said, it was urban students and yuppies who supported the green uprising, not the backwards-looking rank-and-file out in the backcountry who make up most of the population–and those folks just LOVE the Mullahs.

          • Ed  

            Sure, let ’em rot. After all, it’s a faraway land of which we know nothing.

          • RCD

            Actually, you’re right. America was at its best when it didn’t meddle in the affairs of the Old World. The Old World is nothing but a source of grief and mischief for the New World. Especially so for primitive, barbaric lands like “Persia.” It was true 500 years ago and it’s true now. Once we succumbed to the lure of empire (after 1898) and began butting into Old World hornets’ nests, we sowed the seeds of our decline.

          • Ed  

            Oh. I’m right, am I.

            You do realize I was quoting Neville Chamberlain…..

          • RCD

            So, you were right despite yourself. I’ll still give you credit.

          • Ed  


            You’re agreeing with Chamberlain?

          • Aaron M

            …they literally begged for his help. It dominate Middle Eastern news for weeks. What are you, 12?

          • RCD

            Any aid–and it couldn’t have been much– that the US gave to the student rebels (and they were primarily students and urban yuppies, not the highly conservative and backwards-looking population at large) would have given the movement a “made in America” stamp. Yet 52 tea parties and Obama-bashers liked the above statement. Lord, what fools these mortals be.

          • Ed  

            Wouldn’t want America to be an international example of how to be a good country. No, that would never do.

          • RCD

            Destroying a movement by tagging it as inspired by a foreign enemy is not behaving like a “good country.”

          • Ed  

            Before discussing whether the destruction of a movement is good or evil, let’s discuss whether the movement itself is good or evil.

          • RCD

            No, let’s discuss if the movement will be perceived as evil by those it was supposed to help. And let’s also discuss if the movement had a cat’s chance in hell of success (hint, it didn’t).

          • Ed  

            It sure didn’t have any chance of success with the level of support Obama gave it.

        • Cogniscentum

          So you were openly gay there then?

          • AM

            No. Iran is a culture and country that has the decency not to allow the flaunting of homosexuality. That is why Iran has a beautiful culture whereas the UK is full of chavs, single moms and homos.

          • Cogniscentum

            Great, no we can assign your comment the value it deserves.

          • AM

            I guess it is difficult for you to hear a masculine opinion. Masculinity has become a dirty word in the UK and masculine men are the most discriminated against.

          • Cogniscentum

            Sorry, but actual masculine men feel no need to stone to death men who are different. You are looking for some other word, not “masculine.”

          • AM

            Nonsense. This is a case of liberals who hold masculinity in absolute contempt trying to redefine it in order to acheive their social engineering goals.

            Masculine men do not suspect homosexuals or the homosexual agenda. Period. Whether they tolerate them is another story, but the word is ‘tolerate’ not ‘aggrandize’.

            The reality is that in western society masculine straight men are becoming second class citizens and the family is under an all out assault from liberals, homosexuals, left wingers, right wingers, LGBT pressure groups etc.

            When I visit Iran I see men and women following their traditional roles, strong family units and happy people. It’s a sight for sore eyes.

            Very refreshing after seeing the hordes of single mums, homosexuals and other degenerates I am forced to ‘tolerate’ in the UK.

            – The opinion of a conservative traditional masculine man (Rarer than a dodo in modern UK)

          • ProphetZero

            You reek of repressed homosexuality dude
            although I actually think you are putting us on
            But if you’re not, why don’t you simply go back to Iran if its so feminazi here (bullshit btw)
            I doubt you’ll be missed here.

          • AM

            Yeh, every traditional person is actually a repressed homosexual. You people are pathetic and you appear to be quite stupid.

            I am from the UK, I have part Iranian heritage Something that gives me a unique view of the world. It is not advantageous for me right now, because I am in a training scheme, but in the future I intend to leave the UK, where I go is undetermined.

            lol at the UK not being Feminazi. The UK is more sexist than Iran, except it’s sexist to men and not women.

            I will not be missed? and how did you get to that? I think more people would miss me than a bitter old man like you.

          • ProphetZero

            Firstly I’m not old you idiot and my god after your ranting on here about sexism you’re one to talk about bitterness.
            As for Iran being this or that
            Women have been stoned to death for reporting rape.
            You silly little f**k.
            Freedom is almost an alien concept.
            So of you pop then, back to Iran with you if its so wonderful, you can indulge yourself with the Mullahs and the other nuts that run the show over there.
            Lets hope you are well connected however (as my friends over there actually are) or might end up being hung on the street.

          • AM

            You sound like an old man. Young people are usually well traveled and have friends from all corners of the world.

            If you were young you’d have Iranian friends and know that the right wing media presentation and even left wing is nonsense.

            I have been to Iran and felt more free in Iran than I do here. The UK is better for working and business but culturally it is broken. In the UK marriage is basically a dead concept, divorce is rife, single mothers are everywhere, the underclass litters every bar and nightclub, homosexuals promote their propaganda everywhere, feminism is rife, transexual propaganda is becoming normal.

            In the UK the male suicide rate is astronomical and kills more men than any women are killed in Iran. This is a result of the hateful British family laws.

            Iran does not stone rape victims, this admission of yours shows how little you know or understand, you’re just another right wing shrill.

            As I said Iran and the UK both have downsides and upsides. That’s why I say ”Work in the UK, marry Iranian”.

          • ProphetZero

            Absolute BS dude and a complete false equivalency

            Iran is a theocratic dictatorship. I seem old to a dim adolescent like you because I’m well travelled and experienced and have friends from all over the world including Iranians (wealthy ones) who left Iran with their parents in the 70’s.
            You know F**K ALL about anything, and you should consider yourself lucky you silly little boy that you live in a country where you can say and do mostly what you want.
            As for `propaganda`, if you dont like what people are saying ignore it or fight it, but you have no agency to stop it because this is the FREE world.
            Again please get lost, I hear ISIS are attuned to your sentiments, pity about the whole Shia/Sunni thing however.

          • AM

            ISIS? The UK supported ISIS. Iran fought against them from the beginning.

            I’m in my twenties. I am one of the wealthy ones, I’m extremely well traveled, I live in one of the most expensive areas of this country, pop down if you’re ever in belgravia.

            I can’t say what I want or do what I want. If I say what I want especially concerning homosexuals, women’s place in society or transexuals I could lose my job or be thrown into jail. In fact Iran is far more free in what you can say, if you have opinions like mine.

            It’s funny you would call someone far more intelligent, wealthy and better employed a silly little boy.

          • ProphetZero

            You are NOTHING
            That much is clear from your Idiotic posts
            And you can craft whatever Identity you want online
            The unavoidable subtext is mediocrity and stupidity
            And that is that really 🙂

          • AM

            What? Where I live it is all Russians and Arabs. Poor English people like yourself are not allowed. Does it bug you that the most expensive area of London is foreign owned?

            My idiotic post? You stated you thought Iran stoned rape victims, you basically admitted you have no idea what you’re talking about.

            I bet you think there is a coming civil war with muslims lol.

            Go back to the EDL, this is why everyone i hang out with is foreign. They have class and decency.

          • ProphetZero

            You’re a petty angry dimwitted little MORON and you live in your mothers basement under a kebab shop

          • AM

            Angry? everything is going good for me. Good money, good job, russian gf, sweet car….

            life is good bruh.

          • ProphetZero


          • AM

            lol going full troll now?

          • Rustycat

            Our “world class” education system in Ontario Canada, just introduced a sex ed curriculum into the public schools that will teach students starting from grade 1, that you are basically born genderless and can make the decision at puberty whether you are male or female….or sooner if you feel comfortable enough to make this claim at age 9 or 10.

          • Rex

            He’s the one claiming that homosexuality is some sort of alternate lifestyle that people deliberately choose, so why take any of his other statements seriously?

          • AM

            Yes of course it is. In ancient Greece the majority of men were homosexual and women were used only for breeding.

            This notion people cannot choose to be gay or conditioned to be gay is anti-science. If you want to be a science denier, then so be it.

          • Rex

            Do link us to a peer reviewed research study in a medical journal that confirms your claim.

          • Rex

            homosexuals promote their propaganda everywhere,

            Oh totally. They stand on street corners handing out pamphlets (or using social media) to suggest that it’s great to have sex with the same gender in a society now, do they?
            Because of course someone would want to deliberately go and have sex with a person of the same gender and they would just love all the social ostracism and alienation from family & friends that goes with it (at least in the US and other countries where attitudes such as yours prevail).

        • Beagle

          “Nice” hangings of gay people do not spoil the ambiance for you apparently.

          • AM

            No, I am from Iranian background and know many people who live in Iran. No one wanted Obama to send in troops or any other nonsense. They would all turn and fight.

          • RCD

            Exactly, most of them are still ticked off at the US for having overthrown Mossadeq almost 70 years ago. They’ve got long memories.

        • Ger

          Just not what we are used to over here.and just what we don’t want here.

          • AM

            Speak for yourself. I will love to see a move to traditional values in the UK and many other people agree with me.

        • James Lovelace

          “it’s a nice place”
          – where women are forced to wear a bag over their head
          – where “morality police” enforce Bronze Age values
          – where gay people are offered a sex change or death
          – where jews are forbidden to emigrate
          – where the political system is based on a 7th century theocracy

          What’s not to like

          • AM

            Women in Iran have to wear a head cover, but Iranian women are beautiful and walking around in Iran is like being at a model show. The morality police as you call them are not that bad, I had one drinking whiskey with me and he laughed about how little they care about the rules they’re meant to follow.
            Jews can emigrate, however they want to stay in Iran and consider Iran their home (even though Israel keeps offering them free homes and money to leave).

            Iran does not accept homosexuality, it is refreshing and impressive aspect of Iranian culture. Instead in London I have to see homosexual adverts of a cucumber and a middle aged man everywhere I go. This is classless.

            Until you visit, you’re an uneducated neanderthal who has a big mouth but nothing in his brain.

          • James Lovelace

            ” it is refreshing and impressive aspect of Iranian culture.”

            No doubt you would say the same about Hitler’s Germany.

          • AM

            I judge a society on individual traits and can see benefits of some cultural aspects and downsides of others. I do not consider one solely good and the other completely bad. This black and white thinking is the realm of the ignorant.

            Iran has many upsides and some downsides, equally the UK does too.

            As a masculine conservative man I am tired of the homosexual/tranny agenda and prefer traditional society. Reading these comments is like reading the Guardian. Shame on you.

          • James Lovelace

            “I judge a society on individual traits”

            Obviously, you are a liar or delusional. You claim to judge an abstract idea on individual traits. You cannot talk about a society without generalising.

          • AM

            I disagree. I can see that Iran is very pro-family which is a good thing however it is also very corrupt which is a bad thing.

            I can way up the pros and cons of a society. I have the sense to realise that this dichotomy of good and bad, professed usually by right wingers, is short sided.

            I suspect you’re some Israel firster who can only contemplate an anti-Iran agenda. I however am a traditional conservative who can see there is some good sides to Iranian society as well as bad.

            It’s called pragmatism my friend.

          • Rex

            You’re confusing Iran with Saudi Arabia. They’re as apart as chalk and cheese.

        • Lamia

          It’s possibly great for a straight man. Less so for women or gay people who are either second class citizens or criminalised.

          • AM

            Women do much better in Iran than in the UK. In The UK most women are either single mums or wage slaves who cannot find a husband. In Iran there is a very low divorce rate, It is heart warming to see so many families together. Something that is extinct in the UK.

          • AM

            I think Iran is better for women. When I see Iran it is full of happy families, with men and women in traditional roles. The UK is full of shrews who can’t find a husband and instead have to have IVF babies.

            I thought this was a conservative newspaper, instead I am surrounded by liberals.

    • Darren Withers

      I suppose they are idiots.

    • Cobbett

      Too bad for them then because that’s the way it’s going.

    • Charles Hammond Jr

      The smart ones don’t.

      And if they cared to listen and look the straight ones would too.

  • will91

    I’ll give you a little clue, it’s the same reason that’s caused European Jews to believe their is no future for them on this continent. You got it yet?

  • EHGombrich

    Gays have a lot to lose. I can see all these building cranes of an islamified Europe before my eyes already.
    This Islamic orgy of violence will be the ultimate fullfillment of every leftist bourgeois´ fantasy.

    • andyrwebman

      I think ironically enough the leftists will hate it most of all once they realise that their great ally in the destruction of the west will betray them utterly.

      • Simon Fay

        The Left is currently trying to ride the Islamic Tiger, secure in the delusion that their theories of History combined with online campaigning can parry the “problematic” “reactionary” blows from their would-be-useful-idiot meme before said beast eats them too.

      • Eudaemonia71

        Didn’t work out too well for the Communists in Iran in ’79 did it?

        Difference these days is that the Left we refer to aren’t the old-school working class Labour types, but the post-modern crowd who, as long as the hated West is destroyed, will die laughing. Nothing matters more to them – gay rights, women’s rights, themselves – nothing. Nihilism at its most raw. For proof, check every response to every Islamic atrocity since ’83.

        Post-modernism simply wants to see the West destroyed. That’s it. It doesn’t care how and Islam looks the best bet.

        • Tox66

          Sadly true.

      • Tox66

        They will join them, those who can. It’s not an unknown phenomenon already.

      • Grace Ironwood

        Would be interesting to see what the Iranian leftists who helped the Islamists overthrow the Shah’s regime thought about it all.

        There may not be any survivors left to tell us.

  • John Croston

    Anyone who is French and also gay or Jewish (or both) is foolish to the extreme if they do not abandon the Socialsts and Centre Right and vote for Marine Le Pen. The FN may not be perfect ( and it’s not!) but at least it is not their policy to assist Islam in its mission to dominate their country. Hollande’s socialists will not risk losing the Muslim block vote and the Centre Right are like our Tories – way too scared to oppose Islam.

    By the way – I can’t believe UK!P have not jumped all over Cameron’s “I want to see a Muslim Prime Minister” and all the other pro-Islamic grovelling nonsense he has come out with. Perhaps Farage is saving it all up for the debates. No wonder Cameron is trying to keep as far away as possible.

    • Tox66

      Agreed and I think we have to vote UKIP. It’s a shame because a pan-European anti-Islam alliance is our last, best hope of survival but the scale of treachery is so great that breaking into constituent parts may be the only option.

      • John

        Are you a trillionaire with an ocean of oil to sell? Because until you can outspend Saudi Arabia your fantasy of an anti-Islam alliance will be as realistic as the sweat on a unicorn’s balls.

        • Tox66

          Right ho, we’ll give in then. I’ll chuck out me booze and get three more wives. ta.

        • Cyril Sneer

          So you’re the latest fool on these forums.

    • rtj1211

      There’s nothing wrong with a Muslim Prime Minister if they are mature enough in their faith and not indelibly fighting for Muslims alone. If that were the case, then they could be a good Prime Minister.

      Anyone campaigning for anti-gay fundamentalist Islam can’t make a good Prime Minister and should be resisted utterly.

      • John Croston

        No practicing, believing Muslim could ever be a good PM of a non-Muslim country. Islam teaches its followers not even to have friends who are non-Muslim. It teaches them that we are lower than cattle. It teaches them that they must fight us until there is no religion but Islam. It teaches them that wife-beating is fine and sanctions punishments which include, flogging, stoning, crucifixion and mutilation.No real Muslim will go against the word of Allah or their barbarous “prophet” as this is blasphemy. It’s the ideology, stupid.

      • Grace Ironwood

        I agree. Like anyone else, a muslim Prime Minister only needs to be a patriot and a liberal democrat to be an acceptable leader.

  • andyrwebman

    Let’s think about it for a moment form the point of view of a Gay person.

    You could support the socialists – they’ll give you Gay marriage on the one hand, but on the other hand will invite huge numbers of people in who are members of a religion which specifically prescribes the flogging and persecution of gays, along with a huge number of other ant liberty laws.

    Or you could support the one party which opposes this religion, even though it doesn’t support Gay marriage, but which also has no agenda to persecute gays.

    You might think “Oh well, I can live without marriage. Most people of whatever sexuality live together for years without being married”. You can live a happy life and be yourself.

    But you certainly can’t live such a life in an Islamic state.

    Personally, I’d rather eat a plain cake with no icing on it than one smothered in icing but made from turds.

    • will91

      Good point, well made 🙂

      • andyrwebman

        Thank you.

        Marine Le Pen is clearly judging her audience well. She can’t become a vigrous supporter of gay marriage, because she has a number of christian traditionalists behind her.

        On the other hand, she can always fall back to the old french tradition of “what I do in my private life is irrelevant”, an ethic of state non-interfence.

        It’s notable that amongst the french, love affairs have long far less likely to bring down a politician than in the uk – and this situation is still true.

        • Grace Ironwood

          Yes, well said Andyrwebman. I’m curious about the FN on the gay agenda.
          Mme le Pen was not to be seen around the Manif’s powerful and ongoing protests against the Gay Marriage legislation.

          One might think the FN would get more benefit electorally from the large percentage of the French electorate that is anti-gay marriage than Hollande gets out of his ninety percent plus of the muslim vote.

          I suspect le Pen is intent on divorcing from all non-essential right wing social issues in an effort to re-shape FN’s brand and jettison The Old Man.

  • Rachel Halliburton

    There was also a huge amount of Catholic homophobia experienced by the gay community during the equal marriage debate. This included gunmen attacking bars, and skinheads beating gay people up. The picture of homophobia in France today is highly complex, and cannot be pinned onto one religion.

    • Neil Saunders

      Could you provide links to the stories about the anti-gay Catholic gunmen and skinheads, Rachel?

      • MikeF

        Never heard of any such things. I think Rachel is really saying that there ought to have been such incidents to suit her prejudices and like many ‘left-liberals’ she believes that what ought to have happened has more reality than what did or, in this case, did not.

        • Rachel Halliburton

          Mike F – see above the multiple references on white Catholic homophobic attacks I’ve supplied to Neil.

      • Rachel Halliburton

        I’m going to try again – my first attempt was spammed.


        • edithgrove

          None of these links work. Even if they did the NYDaily news is hardly the paper of record.

          • Rachel Halliburton

            Very annoying that the links don’t work – apologies for that, they did when I tested them. Here’s a cut and paste from the Guardian piece, which ran on 21 April 2013: ‘skinheads attacked a gay bar in Lille, injuring several people after
            announcing they had “come to beat up gays”. A gay bar in Bordeaux was
            attacked by masked, armed men the same night. Politicians in favour of gay marriage have received death threats and there was a near fist-fight in parliament between MPs over the bill.’

          • edithgrove

            You wrote that the skinhead violence was Catholic violence. I don’t believe that is true and your cut and paste from the Guardian doesn’t back that up.

            I know there was anger in France and violence in Paris and Lille but but you equate random heterosexual anger and violence, Catholic or otherwise, with a religion that advocates or condones violence against homosexuals? Islam also incorporates the inequality of women. If you’re willing to look the other way when it threatens gay people and jews, surely that should ring a bell for you?

        • Cyril Sneer

          Your links don’t work.

          You have produced squat.

          Sure there is homophobia outside Islam but Jews, for example, are not leaving France in their droves because of skinheads.

        • red2black

          People may wish to take the scenic route, via Google.

    • Sean L

      When the Catholics come under fire for child molesting priests do you similarly mitigate the criticism by referencing the huge amount of systematic child abuse perpetrated by gangs of Muslim men?

      • Rachel Halliburton

        It’s not mitigation, and I would be at fault if I were trying to make it so. It’s about making sure that the full and complex picture is provided before the anti-immigration rhetoric gets into full flow.

        • Sean L

          OK call it ‘equivocation’ or ‘qualification’. The point remains that Western institutions are routinely condemned without comparable qualification; terms like ‘far right’, ‘racist’, ‘homophobic’, ‘islamophobic’ being used unequivocally. Besides, no one’s suggested that hatred of and violence towards homosexuals is confined to followers of the Islamic faith. Yet for some reason you felt obliged to invoke Catholic homophobia. I could guarantee that over all the coverage of child abuse in this country involving Catholics or members of any other group, no one’s ever felt similarly obliged to qualify it with reference to gangs of Muslim child abusers. You allude to ” anti-immigrant rhetoric ” but that’s got nothing to do with it. Most of the extremists in our midst were born here. And this article is about France anyway. Talking of immigrants, my wife happens to be Kenyan. We have family five miles from the Westgate Centre in Westlands, Nairobi where we’ve often shopped and drank. Her people have far more grounds than us to fear Islamic extremism. Ditto numerous other African polities, compared to whom we’re getting off lightly. So the immigration card isn’t really valid here.

        • edithgrove

          “It’s about making sure that the full and complex picture is provided before the anti-immigration rhetoric gets into full flow”

          We are talking about Islam here, in case it slipped by you. I am not anti-immigration, most of my life I have been an immigrant, I am against a religion that accepts the stoning of adulterous women and throwing gay people off buildings. As the mayor of Rotterdam said, ‘accept the freedoms of the west or pack your bags’.

    • Grace Ironwood

      Where have all your left-wing “sources” for these allegations of yours against these marauding Christians who are apparently as bad or worse than Muslim terrorists.

      All religions are the same, everyone

    • edithgrove

      But Rachel, you just pinned gunmen and skinhead violence onto Catholics.

    • redsquirrel

      Sure, there is homophobia outside islam. Preaching violence against gays is not generally accepted in society though, except of course at mosques.

      Islam has it’s track record. It is what it is. It seeks power and when it has it things get very bad very quickly for a lot of people. This is looking like it could happen all over Europe eventually. Fight back.

    • Travis458

      There’s a misunderstanding: saying “No” to the demands of a lobby looking for privileges does not automatically mean you are “homophobe”, and in fact, that they resort to the tactic of bullying people with “Ad hominem” attacks like “shaming labels” is actually proof not only of their very low morals, but also that they cannot win the battle of the ideas. Rationally speaking, what they want is not only stupid and useless to society, it’s also bad in the long term. Marriage has some legal advantages because having and raising children has costs that make a rational player choose not to have them, thus politics adds legal advantages to married couples so that having kids is not too punishing. If you give those same advantages to unproductive couples, it’s not only unfair, but also undermines the reasons to create those advantages in the first place. Obviously, a rational person will always take an unfair action that benefits them, and a lobby will always push for the option that maximizes their benefit, but to any person that believes in fairness and understands why society works, the only rational choice is to oppose the travesty and mockery that is “gay marriage”, and support instead other forms.

  • Grace Ironwood

    “Race trumps gender” was the take-out message from the competition between Hilary vs Obama for the progressive vote a few years ago.

    The same goes with all those progressive gays who live by the leftist SJW warrior code that rigidly requires any non-western influence trump their their own gay-but-white interests.

    The interests of gay men & women are ill-served by Muslim Immigration and the values it pushes for. “More Islam equals less freedom” (Who said that ?)

    For how long can a gay person deny there is the extra dimension of actual physical threat to gays ? Like Jews and women, gays are the natural prey groups of the immigrant gang culture.

    So is a group that lacks enthusiasm for gay marriage worse than a group that thinks you should be killed ?

    The Official “Gay Activists” urging gays to protect Muslim immigration are traitors to their own cause. Many ordinary gays are wising up to the line they’re pushing.

    • ajcb

      Well said. The argument of antagonism to the point of “actual physical threat” goes for women too — with everything from too-short burqua-wearing to picking the wrong boyfriend punishable by beatings, whippings, stonings, “honour killings,” etc. And, if the subject is denying an inherited sexual self, what shall we call FMG?

      • Grace Ironwood

        And where are the official feminists on the outrages suffered by women under this violent opppression?

        • ajcb

          They are no doubt breaking their heads trying to figure out if the isolated value of Western, liberal “tolerance” trumps the downsides of all the things they will have to tolerate by being tolerant of a pretty traditional version of Islam. Or not?

        • redsquirrel

          Too busy worrying about page 3.

        • mohdanga

          Nowhere to be found, they’ve spent decades convincing themselves that the West and Western men are the fount of all evil so they support any institution opposed to the West, which militant Islam is.

    • pointlesswasteoftime

      There are gay muslims. It is up to us to be strong, tell the hardliners to fuck off if they don’t like our liberal values and to welcome liberal moslems into our midst. Dividing gays against gays, or moderates against moderates plays into hardliners hands – on both sides.

      • Grace Ironwood

        Yes, there certainly are gay muslims, ex-muslims and moderate, peaceable muslims.

        Unfortunately, it’s becoming increasingly clear that we can’t “all just get along”. Different groups have different interests that conflict and are on a collision course.

        When you look at where the action is coming from it becomes clear that the moderates are irrelevant: we’ll become victims like the rest unless we-gay or straight-recognise where our interests lie.

  • ajcb

    When ISIL is throwing gay men off buildings in the “caliphate,” the FN looks like a rational choice for gay French people.

    • rtj1211

      Well, at least the FN fights the fight, whether you think it is a good one or not. Their history is resisting, so they have nothing new to learn if they decide to ‘resist’ radical Islam.

  • evad666

    She may be a right wing reactionary but at least she is a French Right wing reactionary.
    The left however are sheepies awaiting halal slaughter.

  • Damian Hurts

    Confuse the enemy until he no longer knows what to believe.

    Fuk that.
    Exit the EU now, no matter the cost!

  • benbecula

    So much for the family values one should expect from a party of the right.

  • edithgrove

    I wonder why the Spectator found it necessary to change the title of this post from “how MLP is winning the gay vote” to the somewhat pejorative, demeaning even, “Meet Marine Le Pen’s gay fan club”?

    • I certainly agree. Is the Spectator a liberal news site, neutral? Or both liberal and conservative?

    • Grace Ironwood


    • Grace Ironwood

      Yes, I noticed that too.

      So why IS that, Spectator?

      My theory is they probably don’t want their careers destroyed for being homophobes.

  • BoiledCabbage

    So encouraging to see that the Islamist threat is now taken seriously in France. Lets hope Cameron gets the message – Farage certainly has.

    300 years of social progress in Europe undone in just a few years by these barbarians.

    • llbee

      Do you really believe that Cameron has any beliefs, after all you have seen? I think what he says and “believes” is dictated mostly by the open-borders lobbyists that pay so much to the Cons. party and its MPs, and perhaps, a little bit, by focus groups of “ordinary people.”

  • Right-Minded

    Brilliant article Rachel!
    You show a level of understanding and appreciation of the hardship now faced by gay people in France that is lost on most mainstream politicians and media. For some reason the blatantly obvious logic of gay people voting FN is lost on ‘liberal’ minded people, if I were living in France I couldn’t reconcile being gay and voting anything other than FN. My justification for being gay and voting UKIP is exactly the same.

    While they may house some people who also hate gay people, and while it may not be their policy to allow me to marry another man – at least it is not party policy to destroy national identity. Gay marriage is such a tiny insignificant issue, I would rather reserve my vote for those who just want to prevent me marrying rather than for those who want to throw me off a building (or facilitate through mass immigration a nation of people who want to throw me off a building).

    • Cyril Sneer

      This marrying another man thing – I think I speak for most doubters here in that we have no problem with gays in a civil partnership that have the same rights as married heterosexual couples, we just didn’t want it called ‘marriage’, it undermines the church. I believe UKIP says the same thing.

      I think yes, equality, equal rights as married couples, but it isn’t necessary to call it marriage.

      The lefts intention is to undermine the church as much as possible.

      • red2black

        Fair enough; except the Church undermines itself.

        • Cyril Sneer

          The Archbishop of whatshisface does more damage to the Church of England than good.

          • red2black

            Glad we agree; cap W for Whatshisface, if you please.

      • Right-Minded

        I would completely agree with that, UKIP has the right policy I think – very fair. Civil partnership was a big thing, gay marriage strikes me as being purposefully antagonistic for little reward. But the debate was driven by the same types who seek out Christian B&B owners for confrontation.

        • MrsDBliss

          We know the ‘type’ who seek out Christian bandb owners for confrontation. They’re the same ‘type’ as the wimmin who seek to ban page 3, scientists wearing shirts with ‘offensive’ images of women on them etc. professional moaners. None of them stand up against you know who. Most people can tell the majority from the vocal minority.
          What annoys me even more is that if I was a Muslim woman, or a more secular Muslim I’d be scared to death right now. It would be like being a same German as he watched the nazis being placated by Churchill.

      • Mark

        “we have no problem with gays in a civil partnership that have the same rights as married heterosexual couples, we just didn’t want it called ‘marriage”

        So UKIP has a problem calling a spade a spade? With that approach they shouldn’t expect many votes from Yorkshire.

      • Grace Ironwood

        UKIP’s gay marriage policy revolves not around its own views – which vary – but on a different and well-founded concern:
        that gay activists and their liberal followers (who loath and would like to bring down “authoritarian” Christianity) will take action to force the churches, in particular the Established Church, to perform homos*xual marriages against their honestly-held beliefs that they have upheld for hundreds of years.

      • Grace Ironwood

        If I may say so, I think your rationale in defence of traditional marriage is weak. Quite rightly, no atheist will give weight to it.

        I recommend you read a book “What is Marriage ? Man and Woman, A Defence” by Sherif Gergis, Robert George and Ryan Anderson.It was referred to by Supreme Court Justices in important marriage cases recently.

        They advance a Natural Law defence of marriage and children’s rights to their (or a) mother and father. Natural Law/Natural Rights thinking is an important foundation of the American Bill of Rights, (“we hold these rights to be self-evident”) and ideas of human rights most democrats still accept today.

        Happily, Natural Rights fit right into Christianity as they came from the Christian tradition in the first place.

  • cocnut pudding

    Sounds good and we all know the real threat to homosexuals in Europe today and in the future comes from Islam and it’s crazies yet I can not help but think of how hitler in the days when he needed Rohm all so said each person had a right to there personal lives yet when Rohm was no longer needed his personal life ( a gay one ) was reason to have his killed by firing squad .

  • Kyle

    I want to know who gave these traitors the RIGHT to flood all white people’s countries with non-whites. Did white people ever vote to become minorities in the nations built by their forefathers? There is no other way to describe these open border immigration policies than as treason.

    • mohdanga

      ‘Diversity’ is only for white countries, don’tcha’ know? Try arguing for this in non-white countries and see how these multiculti, mass immigration nitwits react.

    • Michael McLaughlin

      call it ‘reverse Colonialism’ — the Left wants such unfettered immigration in order to destabilize the Euro-North American backbone of Western Civilization and values ; once this is done they will ‘rebuild’ using the United Nations.

  • Kennybhoy

    Nothing unusual about gays supporting fascists. Even that prat Johann Hari was forced to admit as much…


    • Cyril Sneer

      And there is nothing unusual in the left missing the entire reasoning behind why increasing numbers of gays support the right wing, anti-Islam parties.

  • onceler

    Truly I have fallen down the rabbit hole.

    Being from the other, old school, eternally hated Abrahamic/Semite religion I find myself with few options apart from supporting groups that have hated me for millennium. I find myself agreeing with doctrines that send shivers down my spine.

    As someone who regards “Liberty, equality, fraternity” as the most critical to life, the mind is reeling.

    I absolutely fear for the future of my families homeland for the last 600 years.

    • Cyril Sneer

      Welcome to the results of progressive liberal insanity.

    • Grace Ironwood

      Ahh, but did you vote for it ? That will be the question the Swedes will have to answer from their children. And the rest of us.

  • Cyril Sneer

    God bless Marine Le Pen.

  • Thomas

    The fact is that gay people can be of all political persuasions. There were even gay Nazis like Ernst Rhöm. Only after his killing, Hitler started persecuting gays.

    • A Smith

      If I recall, Rohm and his SA were a political threat–his execution and the purge of the SA wasn’t specifically because he was gay. But it gave Hitler and Himmler the ammo they needed. So to speak.

  • tomgreaves

    If European countries do not act against Islam in their midst now, the deep problems of hatred will fester. There are dangerous splits opening up across every European nation where indigenous peoples are beginning to face the fact that civil conflict is now just below the surface. Extremism is on the rise. Like Chamberlain and his cronies in the 30’s, who appeased Hitler for fear of upsetting him, so Europe now appeases islam in its midst for fear of open hostilities breaking out. Well, those hostilities are going nowhere and they are growing.

  • Mister Rible

    I have a distant gay cousin in California, we spoke yesterday, and he said ‘I wish we had a Reagan, even though he was a homophobe’.

    • FlyoverGuy

      You should tell your gay cousin that Reagan spent most of his life in the movie business and had loads of gay friends. (Really.) He was as far from homophobic as any straight man of his time was likely to be.

      • Dwayne F. Schneider

        FWIW, he also quit a golf club over their no-Jews policy, back in the ’30s (Google “Reagan Lakeside”).

  • WTF

    The enemy of my enemy is my friend and even if you are homophobic you have a lot more to fear from Islam than even the most militant of gays. The extreme elements in the gay movement (if there is one) at most will use words against you rather than f****** kill you for some perceived insult as some Muslims would. I have no idea what Madame Le Penn views are over gay people but suffice to say, she has identified the real danger in our midst whilst others pander to Islam.

  • christiaan1209 .

    In liberal, tolerant Amsterdam gays have been beaten up and robbed and Jewish graves have been desecrated. Theo van Gog, who wanted to make a film demonstrating the contempt for women’s rights under Islam was mudered. The culprits? You guessed. Not a ‘real’ Dutchmen amongst them.

    • Grace Ironwood

      And not a Christian, nor a right winger.

  • Pablo

    And we think WE’RE fucked…

  • Darren Withers

    “Lets look at this from the view point of a gay person” Fuck you, i’m gay and I would never give support to a far right party that demonized homosexuals. Those gay people who are turning against muslims are disgusting and have very short memories.

    • Guy_Montag451

      Yeah, turning against the people who would behead you in their home country is so much worse than the party that would just like you to keep your business in the bedroom like the rest of us.

    • Guest

      yeah, gay should embrace Muslims, especially when they try to hang them…

      you know there is such a thing as : this enemy is so much more worse than that enemy – one DID things many many years ago, the other DOES wants to do thing to me TODAY

    • Sean L

      No institution demonises homosexuals more than Salafist Islam. Absolutely none. Indeed there are numerous Islamic regimes, not even Salafist, comparatively liberal in some respects, where man-on-man is deemed a crime. A crime punishable by death. No political movement of any substance is further to the right than fundamentalist Islam. One reason why Mein Kampf is and has been for many years a bestseller in the Arab world. – I believe LGBT publish a map highlighting the various regimes.

    • Grace Ironwood

      Sorry, Darren, but what’s disgusting is the recent footage of the Islamic state/Daish throwing gay men off a high tower and the footage of gay teens being hung from cranes in Iran.

      You are drawing the wrong lesson from your memory, short or otherwise.

    • crosscop

      You are right not to give your support to a far right party “that demonizes homosexuals.” I’m not gay but I would take the same stance. However, the Front National does not demonize homosexuals – and in a France which is in danger of an Islamic take-over in the not too distant future they are actually the best bet for gays. OK, many FN supporters may not back gay marriage but that is hardly on a par with killing or flogging homosexuals as per Sharia.
      And if Islam ever gets to dominate France ( and only voting FN will prevent this) then gay marriage will not be an option – and neither will being openly homosexual.
      “Kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done” was something that Mohammad said – not Marine Le Pen.

  • Guy_Montag451

    Historically, gayen have been a very conservative group, if not central to the more conservative, nonreligious political groups that come to mind.

    And why wouldn’t they be? They’re men firstly and sexuality is something easily overlooked when in positions of power.

    Gay men really aren’t part of the women’s rights and alphabet soup sexuality groups, and I think they’re coming around to realizing it.

    • Sean L

      Yeah and no shortage in the Nazi movement. Not least the main man. Or so it’s argued by some historians. . .

    • Grace Ironwood

      Very astute observations Guy. Ann Coulter has quipped that gay men are Nature’s Republicans !

      A good example of the resumption (if it was ever interrupted) of male privilege by gay men is displayed in the emerging contest between the interests of gay men and those of women & children over commercial surrogacy.

      Maybe the bulk of gay women will still be “down among the women” and feel some solidarity with the plight of their non-western sisters.

      For what it’s worth, I believe Marine le Pen & her party kept right away from the huge Manif protests.

      • Guy_Montag451

        As do I. I think she has realized there the best selling point she has isn’t to be a party that hates nontraditional groups, but rather is of the position of people doing whatever they want in the privacy of their own homes, be it sexual or religious, but that the public sphere should remain a place of secular, asexual decorum.

        • Grace Ironwood

          Well, traditional liberal freedoms sure beat being forced into Soviet-style public Self-Criticism and retraction after Saying The Wrong Thing.
          The politics of personal destruction as currently practised in our own society show we’ve developed our own jihadists.

  • Chris Duffy

    Gay men are being thrown off of buildings to their death in the Islamic Caliphate, with huge crowds watching and, at best , doing nothing, at worst cheering the cold blooded murders on. Is not happening in the Christian Caliphate. Or the Jewish Caliphate. Or the Martian Caliphate. It’s happening in the Islamic caliphate.

    At some point you have to pull the utopian ‘it’s not Islam!’ blinders off, and also start to notice the mass indifference to homophobic bigotry perpetrated by the larger Muslim umma.

    • Grace Ironwood

      I know, I saw some of the pictures. These people are demonic.

      Muslims are an identity group that by common acclaim have been given a pass on the expression of outright hatred & violent intent towards gays. To a lesser extent, another group that’s given a pass on gay animus is the black male.
      Other groups and individuals are forced to celebrate every plank of the radical gay & gender agenda.

      Why is this ?

      I can only think Islam and black males are still higher up than gays in the benighted caste system of identity group rights with which we’ve replaced our old system of individual rights.

  • jzsnake

    Just the lessor of 2 evils. Figure if Sharia law takes over that’s it. One and done.

  • justsomeone

    It’s worrying that the big parties are being deserted, worrying that fringe parties are growing but the crisis is unavoidable because the big parties – the ones normal people rely on – have deserted the people and unless they start representing the interests of their citizens, the small parties will continue growing.

    • A Smith

      When the “savory” people can’t get the job done, then people will look toward the unsavory people to get the job done.

      • justsomeone

        Exactly. And when established parties who have ruled in the past and respect democracy won’t do the job then parties who’ve never ruled and might be less democratic might be called upon. It’s troubling.
        We’re lucky that UKIP is hardly a threat to democracy.
        In some countries some unsavory parties have risen.

  • jetch

    it’s funny. you have muslims killing people by the dozens in france, rioting in germany and kidnapping and raping by the thousands in england, but this article makes it seems like the FN is the only problem. wow!

    you don’t think the left’s embrace of muslims, and the muslim’s vehement hatred of gays has anything to do with gays supporting FN? really??

  • who dat?

    The Right is the natural home for gays. The Left will feed them to the Islamists. Period.

  • Tom Servo

    Leftists like to hide the fact that their good Muslim friends and allies consider it their religious duty to exterminate every gay man in the world today.

  • A Smith

    Islamic barbarity does make strange bedfellows.

  • bob lynch

    A significant number of early nazis were homosexual. The most powerful was Ernst Rohm, who rivaled Hitler for the leadership of the party. Threatened, Hitler assassinated Rohm and purged and send to concentration camps nazi homosexuals, who were murdered merely because of their sexual orientation. Truly a low point in human history.

  • CaliforniaIsADream

    Everyone has a right to live their own life without being bothered or pushed around. If I were a French citizen, the FN is the party I would support.

  • LegallySpeaking

    no dog in this fight.

  • I know this is France, where they have no right to keep and bear arms, but it illustrative of a simple fact about the entire world, really. As I’ve said and written many times:

    Gays are safer behind conservatives with guns than they are behind the jihad-enabling leftists.

  • SuzyQue

    “…anti-Arab and anti-black…”

    Uh, maybe it has more to do with islamic radically anti-gay attitudes.

  • Sean L

    The centre of political gravity has now moved so far to the left that what was considered far left not so long ago is now mainstream. And the attitudes of the average Labour MP under Wilson or Callaghan would now be considered “far right”.

    • Right-Minded

      Exactly right, when the Lib Dems are seen by the mainstream as the ‘centre-ground’ of British politics, that puts me so far right I must be off the scale.

  • Terence Hale

    “How Marine Le Pen is winning France’s gay vote” A Pen is German is a “Füller”, Maybe Mrs. Le Pen should learn from the Americans who say there are no live homo’s in Texas.

    • ExiledOnMainStreet

      Which Americans say that? Please provide a link, as I am an American and I have never heard or read that. Otherwise, I might think you are simply a liar. I did hear the President of Iran say at Columbia University that there are no gays in Iran.

    • Grace Ironwood

      The Mayor of Dallas is a lesbian currently using the power of the state to stifle dissent from Christian Churches.

  • DFCtomm

    You can have a million laws all saying you can marry a farm animal if you wish, but if you can’t enjoy those laws in public then what good are they? This is a lesson that Muslims are teaching Europeans. Culture is up stream from legislation. You take the culture and you will eventually take the legislature.

  • Sean Grainger

    As I said when this tosh appeared elsewhere this week — or last week — arithmetic still applies. 25% of 1% of 10million is 25,000; whereas 16% of 99% of 10m is 1,584,000. So good luck to the girl.

  • Lamia

    The Bordeaux gay scene has dwindled since the attacks, but McCarthy says
    that he, like Lestrade, is alarmed at the way that assaults by a few
    Arabs have created a major polemical opposition between gays and

    ‘Assaults by a few Arabs’ evidently includes several murders of gay people by the former. As for ‘polemical opposition’,have there subsequently been murders of Muslims by gay people in Bordeaux and a decline in the ‘Bordeaux Muslim scene’?

    This is a disgraceful attempt to suggest an equivalence in the harm done to each other by gays and Muslims in France. The aggression is entirely one way, and it’s dishonest and insulting to pretend otherwise.

  • Sean Thompson

    This is same across Europe. In the United Kingdom a similar movement exists against Pakistanis.

    Pakistanis aren’t a model minority (think of poor educational attainment, riots, etc) while Hindus (Indians or Sri Lankans) are. Therefore most gays tend to be racist against Pakistanis and prefer to side with Hindus.

    Pakistanis/Muslims and Blacks are at the bottom of European gay culture too.

  • Gays are getting tired of being attackes by muslims, if the left wing doesn’t offer us an answer of course will go to a new flavour!

    • so true … the bullying needs to stop

  • Peter L. Giamatti

    Better Muslims than the homo-fascists.


    It’s hard to understand how anyone can support muslim immigration. It’s like saying: “Come to my house, destroy it, make me feel unsafe, steal, rape my daughter, break my crucifix – no problem because I am tolerant and so politically correct that your safety matters more than that of my family.”

    • robert franklin stroud

      Liberals are too feckless and dishonest to defend the principles of Liberalism. What is happening in Europe and the statements by Obama proves that point to even the most dim-witted of Democrats (or at least it should by now).

  • robert franklin stroud

    The Left of France and the US has embraced and defended Islam and all its homophobia and misogyny for reasons that could only boil down to 1) If we appease them maybe they will attack us last; and 2) If Conservatives are against them then I should be for them.

    If you are gay have to be worried about the growth of Islam because the more Islamic an area gets the less tolerate, less free, and more violent it gets. How many Islamic countries with the death penalty fir homosexuality (10 or 11 now) or that tolerate gay men being thrown off buildings surrounding by cheering crowds of Muslims do you have to see to know that any party that opposes the immigration of more Muslims and their non-Western cultural beliefs is a party that gays should support — for their own safety and freedoms if nothing else.

  • jim

    Fair enough..but I do think white western christian civilization has a more noble legacy to defend. It represents a bit more than f*ggotry.

  • slyblade

    Their all Liberal up until the jihadist knife is at their throats then it’s all too late.

  • E.I.Cronin

    I was an admirer of Marine’s well before I knew anything about FN’s support by conservative gays. I knew FN opposed SSM but then so do I. When I first starting hearing how she had cleaned out the skins, old Jean receded into the background and she had turned FN into a viable political party I realised she was an articulate, brave and patriotic leader. Exactly the kind we urgently need today. To me, and many other men and women, our ethnic and cultural heritage is more important than our homosexual identity and in much greater danger. Robert Spencer wrote that we all need to put aside our differences and work together. We can squabble after we secure our cultures and nations first. If we manage to…