Nigel Farage cannot lead the Out campaign

When I was asked to write this article I intended to start by saying that Nigel Farage had to choose whether he preferred that Britain should leave the EU or that he should remain Ukip’s leader, because the two were incompatible. I hope I was wrong about that, but there is some truth in it, and Nigel stated his own view a couple of months ago. ‘It is frankly just not credible for me to continue to lead the party without a Westminster seat. What credibility would Ukip have in the Commons if others had to enunciate party policy in Parliament and the party leader was only allowed in as guest? Was I supposed to brief Ukip policy from the Westminster Arms? No — if I fail to win South Thanet, it is curtains for me. I will have to step down.’

But things have changed. Ukip’s only MP, Douglas Carswell, has said that he does not want to be leader, and so the leader cannot be an MP.

Nigel’s success is fantastic and thoroughly deserved. He gave up a remunerative career to fight for what he believed in, he led Ukip to victory last year in the EU elections, and Ukip received 12.5 per cent of the votes in the general election. So he is highly distinguished, and admirable in many ways. Yet I believe there is a lesson to be learnt from comparing his political rise with my financial career. An investor in my company, IG Index, saw shares which cost £100 become worth £12 million. At that point I was told it was time to stand aside. What an ungrateful lot they are, I thought, but I did stand aside and they proved right. The shares soared to much greater heights.

Ukip, similarly, can build on the phenomenal success it has enjoyed under Nigel, to become far more successful still, but only, I believe, if Nigel plays a somewhat different role. The signs are there. While it was not surprising that Ukip’s share of the vote should drop from the 27.5 per cent it got in the European elections to 16-18 per cent, it subsequently went down to 12.5 per cent. And in South Thanet, where Nigel stood for Parliament, he lost with 32.4 per cent, while Ukip won the council vote with 36 per cent. So his personal power to pull in the votes may be past its peak. But he claims to have ‘overwhelming support’ inside the party and he points to the unanimous vote in the party’s National Executive Committee (NEC) meeting last week that his ‘resignation’, announced immediately after the election but never actually received, should be rejected.

That meeting appears, however, to have been a farce, with Nigel apparently present for most of the discussion and all of the vote. Who would have dared to vote against him? In any case, overwhelming support inside Ukip is nowhere near enough to win the referendum. Then the Daily Telegraph wrote, ‘Mr Farage is reassuring allies that he will have his revenge, after which he intends to run his party in an even more autocratic manner’ — and those who had voted to support him would have been glad they had. Nigel finds dissent hard to handle and this is dictator talk.

Even so, we are where we are and it is clear that Nigel will remain Ukip’s leader, at least for the time being. He does not need to stand aside completely, and of course everyone in Ukip, including Nigel and I, have in common the conviction that we must get Britain out of the EU for the good of the people of this country, and we must co-operate as well as we can. I am pleased to read that Nigel does not want to be in charge of the Out campaign. I say this in spite of the fact that he is, in his way, an absolutely outstanding orator, whether on TV or radio, or at public meetings. He speaks with great clarity, he is highly intelligent, articulate, well-informed and quick on his feet, and that is the main reason why the party has become such a force in British politics.

But his oratory, while great in one way, is aggressive and divisive, tenable up to last year’s EU elections, and perhaps intentional, but not what is needed at this stage. To win the referendum we must have 50 per cent rather than 12.5 per cent, or even 32.4 per cent, and we need a quiet, well-reasoned approach to convince the waverers, in a battle which will be more important to this country even than any general election. We have to get over to the undecided voter that everyone will be better off, in fact far better off, outside the EU.

I am still worried by some things that Nigel has said, such as this reported in Monday’s Daily Telegraph: ‘They don’t want the party to attract opprobrium, but if you take on the political class on tough issues, you attract opprobrium… I think you can see that my style does not get affected by whoever my advisors are or whatever anyone says on television. I do my own thing.’ It was reported on the same day in the Times that Eurosceptic Tory MPs, who are going to be a vital part of the Out campaign, although looking to side with Ukip ahead of the EU referendum, have warned that Nigel Farage must not play a leading role in the campaign for Britain to leave. Apparently one Conservative MP said that Mr Farage’s involvement as a leading spokesman would be a red line to a joint operation.

So I do hope that those who are more emollient than I am may be able to persuade Nigel that, even though he must be distressed by such comments, the right thing, in the quest for what he has given up 20 years of his life for, i.e. the quest to get the UK out of the EU, is to soften his tone and co-operate with whoever is leading the Out campaign.

Stuart Wheeler made his fortune through IG Index, the spread-betting firm he founded. As Ukip treasurer, he was asked by Nigel Farage to ‘raise serious money’.

TaggedEU referendum, European elections, Farage, Out campaign, South Thanet, UKIP

Show comments

Cyril Sneer

I’ll give this article the review it deserves:

Tosh.
Bluebottle

Many of the drones won’t like reading the above, but it is true.
- William_Brown
  
  …..thus, says a bluebottle.
  - The Bogle
    
    Bluebottle was a character in the 1950s radio comedy “The Goon Show”.
    - William_Brown
      
      A Bluebottle is a winged insect that feeds upon detritus.
    - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
      
      This one is a supporter of the 2015 comedy ,UKIP.
CRPC

How is it that no one ever questions why Natalie Bennett should remain leader of the Green party. After all, she doesn’t have a seat in Parliament either. Like UKIP, the Greens only have one MP, Caroline Lucas, who is not the party leader and yet this is never perceived to be a problem for the Greens.
- global city
  
  they are also never described as a one man band either, despite most knowing more UKIP people than Green activists/members.
- Sarkastracus
  
  But Bennett didn’t say she would resign if she didn’t win a parliamentary seat.
  - CRPC
    
    That’s hardly the point. There is ample precedent in people offering to resign and then being asked to stay on. This is a straw man argument. Perhaps Natalie Bennett should offer to resign. She’s not exactly the Green party’s greatest communicator.
    - Mary Ann
      
      I think most of us have figured out that Farage never intended to stay resigned.
      - UKSteve
        
        Indeed.
      - Mary Ann
        
        How did you manage to get your comment in red?
      - styants64
        
        His a commie.
      - goodsoldier
        
        We are so glad that he changed his mind. Why do you care?
    - The Masked Marvel
      
      Your last sentence explains why it’s best for everyone that she remains party leader.
    - Autonomous Mind
      
      What about people offering to resign, then staring down the supposed decision makers in their meeting to ensure they don’t accept the resignation?
- Sharon Fruitcake
  
  Coming to think of it, the Greens and Ukip have a lot in common, really.
  - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
    
    Leaders who are piss poor communicators and one MP each.
  - Nivek Ecyoj
    
    no they don’t they’re polar opposites
  - sandy winder
    
    Parties with millions of voters and one MP thanks to the corrupt voting system? And the Tories moan that the constituency boundaries are not fair to them.
    - Sharon Fruitcake
      
      Yes they do, and isn’t that funny?
    - UKSteve
      
      Moronic comment. The system works, and you knew this going into it.
      
      What is corrupt is UKIP – and catastrophically incompetent. It should have chosen an election strategy better suited to the FPTP system, not blanket-saturate the country with candidates. Any sane and rational 16-year old could have told you that, so why does it escape Farage, when he’s told it by sophisticated grown ups?
      
      UKIP candidates in Scotland – absolutely absurd!
      - Andy M
        
        You seem to miss the point that he did do that. UKIP were coming second in a lot of places. They just didn’t have quite enough support in each constituency to win the seat. They did have a strategy for areas they were strongest in, such as Essex.
      - UKSteve
        
        Neither you nor he have a point. so it can’t be missed.
        
        if you think 2nd place in a FPTP electoral system is significant, there is nothing I can do. Further discussion on such a ridiculous response would be like pearls before swine.
        
        I seriously hope that UKIP stays out of the referendum campaign; it did nothing towards it – actually tried to sabotage the only petittion seeking it – and could cause untold damage to the serious “Out-ers”.
        
        As I’ve said elsewhere, if UKIP had ploughed ALL of the party’s resources into 70 or 80 seats, you may have had 25 – 30 MPs by now. UKIP – even the “big” parties are hardly big enough or rich enough to field over 600 candidates – massive mistake. And those of us who have lived in Scotland saw that (but not on that scale) coming!
      - Andy M
        
        There is a clear point, which appears to simply be going above your head. They had a strategy in their strongest areas but they simply didn’t get enough votes, despite having that strategy. It had nothing to do with fielding 600 candidates. A candidate can basically run on their own, it does not mean each of them are having resources funneled in to support them.
        
        If you think that second place and four million votes in ANY system is insignificant, you are simply beyond all reason. There is no way UKIP would have ever got 25-40 MPs regardless of resources. It’s pure fantasy. In this system, they did pretty well to get the amount of votes they did and the amount of second places, which counts for a lot actually. Despite all the parties and all the press doing their level best to smear UKIP into oblivion and shut them out of debate, they still managed a great result all things considered. They weren’t going to convince any more people to vote for them this time round, and as was their strategy all along, they planned to build on the support generated for the next GE.
      - UKSteve
        
        For someone (assumedly) in UKIP to accuse anyone outside of being “beyond reason” is so risible as to be surreal. UKIP HAD no strategy, so your continued use of it is mildly amusing. You need to look back at some of the comments and predictions of UKIP members in Disqus and elsewhere – they are incredibly tragic. I suspected UKIP would go into the 2015 GE campaign without a single policy and guess what, I (like hundreds) were proved right. I contend that, to this day, no-one in UKIP knows the difference between a ‘manifesto’ and a ‘policy’, because anyone who does probably has their back stabbed on the orders of Farage, which seems to have happened a lot.
        
        You couldn’t even begin to understand the principle of what I was saying, as you live in your own echo chamber, and you haven’t anywhere near countered the points I made.
        
        4 million votes? You used “insignificant”, not me – very telling in itself. UKIP members were predicting “70 – 80 seats” 1 month before…..
        
        “Which one’s?” I asked.
        
        “The one’s the other parties lose” he said
        
        “But which one’s?”
        
        “Marginals” came the reply.
        
        LOTS of people in serious media and respected commentators – at one point even Andrew Neil, I’m told – gave weight to those who predicted “about” 20 MPs.
        
        Spreading resources that thinly was crassly stupid – candidates are either UKIP or they’re not – and once again, Farage sabotages a major election. A pity Carswell isn’t leader – the party desperately needs a brain at the top.
      - Andy M
        
        Wrong again. You’re making quite a habit of this. I’ve already explained this so it’s clearly just not registering in your brain. I am in no way suggesting they was master strategists or couldn’t have organised themselves better, but they did have a strategy to focus on Essex and Kent mainly, in terms of where they fielded their strongest candidates and where they focused their appearances. The fact they fielded candidates elsewhere doesn’t mean that they had no strategy.
      - UKSteve
        
        Explaining anything to you is a waste of time – truly, seed on stony ground.
        
        No-one I have spoken to in or out of UKIP detected any sign of strategy. Which probably accounts for 4 members I know going to join the Conservatives in the last 3 weeks.
        
        Get an adult to explain this: You used exactly the same “strategy” – that proved disastrous in 2010 – only on an even bigger scale. Even more stupid. Another “thrown” election by UKIP – what a surprise! NOT!
        
        I reckon if you combined the IQs of UKIPers it wouldn’t hit 1000. That’s why they’re still squealing about “4 million votes and 1 MP.”
        
        Seen more brains on a butcher’s apron.
- Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
  
  The leaders of the Tory party sit in the CoLC, Jersey and the Caymans. Who the hell asked for Camiklla Cavendish to be making policy?
- Jen The Blue
  
  Yes but that is because the Greens are a bunch of irrelevant lunatics.
- kazibeth
  
  Possibly because she has never undertaken to resign, resigned, unresigned, and lost half the leading Party group, and then demanded that everybody left swears allegiance to her.
Diggery Whiggery

I’m a Ukip supporter and I have to agree. Nigel is a great leader for Ukip, but there are many eurosceptics and undecided people out there who can’t stand him and so won’t listen to the arguments if he’s the one presenting them. He has his role to play, but it needs someone else with a less abrasive charisma to lead the Out campaign.

Any ideas?
- CRPC
  
  Nigel has proved to be an extremely able leader boosting UKIPs support to 4 million votes at the last election. It’s not as if UKIP is brimming with well able, high calibre candidates at present. Nigel’s the best UKIP have and he should stay to finish the job.
  - Diggery Whiggery
    
    I’m not talking about his leadership and success as leader of Ukip. I’m talking about winning the referendum which is not the same thing. Wanting out of the EU doesn’t start and end with a Ukip membership card. If you think that you’re setting yourself up for a dissapointment.
    
    To win the referendum the Outers don’t have to convince Ukip voters or convince other people to vote Ukip, they have to convince a great many people to vote out even if they don’t vote Ukip and even if they don’t like Nigel Farage.
    
    To take Nigel’s own analogy about himself, we have to convince people to buy marmite even if they hate marmite and would never eat it.
    - The Bogle
      
      Quite true. How many people who do not like the Tories nonetheless voted Conservative a fortnight ago?
      - Diggery Whiggery
        
        Lots through fear, but we won’t have fear on our side in the referendum and in any case it’s not about party politics this time. In the referendum, nobody will be voting for a party or its leader, only arguments and how much they believe those putting them across.
      - Mary Ann
        
        Problem with arguments is that a lot of them will be extremely misleading, after all the majority of people seem to think there are far more migrants in this country than they really are, although this of course could be useful for the out campaign.
      - Diggery Whiggery
        
        Of course, which is why the issue of trust is so important. For the Outers they’ll listen uncritically to the arguments that support their view. The In voters will do the same. The mushy fence sitters will listen to the person they trust the most and if they are to vote out the Out leader really has to appeal to them because on the other side they’ll have the fear factor.
      - Mary Ann
        
        So no problem with the public being deceived?
      - Diggery Whiggery
        
        Both sides will seek to deceive in being selective with their information. I wish it weren’t the case, but we both know that would be naive.
        
        Pro-EU fanatics will trot out the old 3 million jobs myth yet gain, as well as all the big corporates who’ll threaten to pick up their factories and move elsewhere etc etc.
        
        At the end of the day, it’ll come down to whether the people of this country want it to continue to exist institutionally and constitutionally or whether they don’t care much.
      - Mary Ann
        
        You don’t seem to have a high opinion of the out campaign, happy to leave the EU on a lie. I think that ukip can get the upper hand by being honest, show the others what integrity means.
      - William_Brown
        
        Well said.
      - milford
        
        I was talking to a Chinese student the other day who told me that when he arrived in the UK he thought he’d got on the wrong plane because there are so many Indians here.
        The Midlands is absolutely chock full of immigrants from every corner of the world, they say every Indian has a relative in Leicester. BTW I’ve got nothing against them there’s just a hell of a lot of them.
      - Mary Ann
        
        Who wants to live in the Midlands.
      - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
        
        Do they love Bovril as much as you Brummies?
      - Mr B J Mann
        
        Yes, how many “net migrants” are there in the country?
        And how many actual migrants and their offspring?
        And I ask as the offspring of migrants!
        If 600,000 migrants come in every year.
        And 300,000 pre WW2 Brits and their offspring leave every year.
        For how long will Britain still be the Britain people think it is/was?
        Bearing in mind places like Leicester are already 50% non-white “ethnics”, so the “white British” are well under half the population already there!
        The “liberal” elite might think it’s a wizard wheeze to import people to vote for them, but when they are a tiny minority in their own overpopulated country, and they are having to concrete over the Green Belt and the National Parks all the better to enjoy the vibrant diversity, but they finally realise that they don’t really want to enjoy all the “benefits” of multiple cultures, such as FMG clinics, halal slaughterhouses and Traveller encampments vying for space by their favourite rambling route on which they keep tripping over honourably killed wives and children……….
        And, of course, once the “democratic” machinery they put in place puts Sharia Lawyers into 51% of the seats in parliament…………
      - William_Brown
        
        If anything, the GE proved that, despite the FPTP system, a vote for UKIP is not a wasted vote. Whilst UKIP might have only one MP, it is setting the agenda for the Tory’s and, if Burnham is to become leader, it appears the Labour party too.
        
        To find that, despite the Labour/SNP fear factor, almost 4m people voted for them has served to further embolden UKIP support.
      - Diggery Whiggery
        
        I agree on that, but winning a referendum is not the same thing. The key is the mushy middle. 80% of the voters have made their minds up, it’s the 20% in centre who we need to win over. The people who want out but who foolishly think that Cameron’s renegotiation might count for something.
        
        They’re the people we need to focus on, because those who voted Ukip will vote out anyway, and those who voted Green, Lib Dem and a lot of Labour voters will vote In.
      - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
        
        In ,In ,In. We will win.
      - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
        
        A vote for UKIP is a wasted vote and proof you are uneducated.
      - LittleRedRidingHood
        
        Claptrap. You ignoramus.
      - William_Brown
        
        Is that really your finest riposte? Pffft.
      - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
        
        Fear won the election. The trick will be to stop folk being afraid.
      - LittleRedRidingHood
        
        Exactly. There is nothing to fear from brexit.
    - CRPC
      
      Diggers Whiggery, with respect, I think you’re the one who is missing the point. Nigel Farage has a proven track record of being able to reach the hearts and minds of people who normally don’t even take an interest in politics who bother to vote at all. There will always be those who don’t like him for one reason or another. That’s life. In terms of convincing ordinary folk to leave the EU, he is far th best man for the job.
      - Diggery Whiggery
        
        No sorry, but I think that’s a very narrow view based on wishful thinking. He’s already got lots of those people locked in, but they’re not enough to win the ref by themselves. He has his role to play, but to win the ref we have to convince over 50% of the voting public to vote Out even though 36-39% of them don’t vote Ukip and haven’t been “reached” by Nigel Farage. He might well be able to convince half of them at best, but that’s still not enough.
        
        Nigel is great at getting to a certain kind of voter, but they’re the kind of voters who will vote Out anyway. What he’s not so good at is reaching the mushy fence sitters and they’re the ones we need to win even if we wish we didn’t.
      - CRPC
        
        I disagree with your analysis completely. But even if that’s your view, changing the UKIP party leader will resolve that problem, will it? What’s the evidence for that? There are 70 or so Euro skeptic Tory MPs who will also be making the case to leave the EU. It’s not all about Nigel and I think it’s counter productive to personalise the issue in this way. Your allowing yourself to be side tracked by media hype.
      - Diggery Whiggery
        
        “I disagree with your analysis completely. But even if that’s your view, changing the UKIP party leader will resolve that problem, will it?”
        
        I’m not saying he should stand down as party leader or that him doing so would sort out the problem. Did you read what I wrote. I merely think that he shouldn’t be the lead figure in the Out campaign that’s all. I’m not pretending that I know who should be but if he is you can bet that those on the In side will make it all about Nigel to drive a wedge in the Eurosceptic vote.
      - Mary Ann
        
        You do not hold him in high esteem, do you?
      - Diggery Whiggery
        
        Actually I do as Ukip leader, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think he has weaknesses like everyone else.
      - Mary Ann
        
        A bit like Milliband, Murphy and Clegg.
      - CRPC
        
        Did you read what I wrote? He won’t be the only one making the “out” case. What about the Euro skeptic Tories? What about those on the left who want to leave Europe too?
      - Mary Ann
        
        What is it, 70 Euroskeptic Tories 260 pro Europe, Don’t know about the rest apart from the fact the only party that actually wants to leave the EU is ukip and their leader can’t even get himself elected to the House of Commons. Now the out side have the Murdoch press, probably their strongest asset and Murdoch isn’t even British, with the Leverson enquiry Murdoch can hardly by called a man with integrity………
      - Diggery Whiggery
        
        I’m not saying he’ll be the only one, only that if he leads it officially, his opponents will make sure that they make it all about Nigel.
      - Count Dooku
        
        If Farage is so great why did he only get 12% of the vote in the GE?
      - Mary Ann
        
        Because most people cannot appreciate his greatness.
      - Count Dooku
        
        The same was said about Jesus.
      - Mary Ann
        
        I know Nigel is worshipped by some people but to compare him to the son of God is going just a bit too far.
      - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
        
        Oh, I don’t know. A man who talks in riddles ,largely ignored in his own lifetime other than by the mad and the idealistic. Who hands on a legacy of violence and bigotry based on a thin creed of trivial dogma.
      - Mary Ann
        
        Well the cap fits.
      - MA0
        
        Legacy of violence, huh? “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.” Let me know if you need that riddle explained by this madman.
        
        Meanwhile, Christianity produced the greatest culture of anti-violence in history, which is largely why Europe is the cradle of science, a phenomenon towards which you Marxists have such fruitless pretensions.
        
        Now prepare for a predictable incoming rant about the Inquisition and a wonderfully scientific analysis of what the West would have been like without Christianity. “There’s none so blind as those who will not see.”
      - Mary Ann
        
        I was taking the Michael.
      - Count Dooku
        
        Proverbial or arch angel?
      - Mary Ann
        
        Oh Arch angel I think, one cannot aspire too high.
      - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
        
        Can we crucify him soon, please?
      - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
        
        Can we crucify him then?
      - Mary Ann
        
        Well I would say it’s a good idea but look what it did for Jesus, you have the same thing with Salman Rusdie, No fatwa and most of the world would have ignored him.
      - LittleRedRidingHood
        
        Only if we can put you two thieves either side of him.
      - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
        
        He is an ass.
      - LittleRedRidingHood
        
        Ah all we hear from you are insults and idiotic rantings. Credibility zero.
        Looks like shyte, sounds like shyte, you are most probably shyte.
        Why do you want to stay in the EU? Tell us instead of badmouthing.
      - CRPC
        
        You need to read some history. 12% of the vote in a General Election for a party that is barely 22 years old is not bad.
    - Mary Ann
      
      As the leading figure in the uk independence party if Nigel were not to lead the fight to leave it would make him look as if he cares more for his job in the EU parliament than he does for his party’s raison d’etre. (dare one use French)
      - Diggery Whiggery
        
        I don’t agree, it would show that he cares more for the cause than his ego.
        
        Either way, the In side will try and portray it as a negative, that’s a given.
    - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
      
      You will fail.
    - Mary Ann
      
      But to do that would be less than gentlemanly, fooling people into voting for something that they do not want, surely Nigel isn’t like that.
  - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
    
    That is because only mediocre and low calibre people even consider backing UKIP. Look at Wheeler, the man is poorly educated and self absorbed.
    - LittleRedRidingHood
      
      Trolls of all shapes and sizes. Sad old wrinkly sitting in a tiny little village in the middle of nowhere with no immigrantion issues or any of the issues seen around the major centres.
      Yes I remember from previous arguments.
      You are pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
    - LittleRedRidingHood
      
      As opposed to you leftie knuckle draggers.
- William_Brown
  
  I believe that you are falling for the MSM propaganda – don’t! They are on the run, so be strong.
  - Diggery Whiggery
    
    No I’m capable of thinking for myself and separating the cause of leaving the EU from the political party that is Ukip. We have to accept that if the Out campaign is merely the Ukip campaign we won’t get over 50% of people to vote out. A bit of humility is needed and a recognition that winning the referendum is more important than the party’s ego.
    - William_Brown
      
      Hmmm…If it were a compulsory vote, then I would agree with you. Since the vote will probably be subscribed to by motivated groups and individuals only, I don’t think that 50% of that vote is impossible at all.
      - Diggery Whiggery
        
        The Scottish ref shows otherwise. When it’s important people come out and vote. If you’re expecting a turnout equivalent the EU elections you’re dreaming. Don’t forget that project fear will scare all their people to the ballot boxes.
      - GUBU
        
        A question, Mr Whiggery.
        
        Are there currently people in UKIP who, believing that the outcome is predetermined (as some evidently do), see the referendum primarily as a platform to build support for their party instead?
      - Sarkastracus
        
        Farage looks like adopting the ‘SNP’ position. Lose the referendum but then hope to see a surge in UKIP membership to take on Labour and the Tories in 2020.
      - Diggery Whiggery
        
        If that’s the case he should opt out from leading it because there’s no Nicola Sturgeon waiting in the wings.
      - William_Brown
        
        Which, perhaps, is why he should stay.
      - Diggery Whiggery
        
        When did I say he should leave?
      - William_Brown
        
        ..sorry digg, I meant as heading up the EU campaign. I guess we’re not going to agree on this point, mate. : )
      - Diggery Whiggery
        
        Yes there probably are but although I don’t share that view, it would make me even more sure that Farage should not lead the campaign. If Farage leads the campaign and Project Fear weaves its ahem ‘magic’ and wins, he’s personally finished and so are Ukip and he’d have to pass the reigns on to someone else in my view. He’s survived one failure, but two would be one too many if he was directly linked to it and he’d probably take the party down with him as there’s no NS waiting to take over.
        
        If he takes part without leading it he can build on the disenchantment of disappointed Out voters, consolidate them and do an SNP. I suspect that’s one of the reasons why Cameron wants to now bring the referendum forward, to allow plenty of time for Out voters to calm down and refocus afterwards before the next GE.
        
        Even if he doesn’t lead the campaign and it wins, he can still claim credit for bringing it to a head and use it as public validation for Ukip’s position. Not leading the campaign is a win win for Farage and Ukip whether they win or lose. Leading it would be far more risky, with not much extra benefit.
      - Mary Ann
        
        But to continue to call the party ukip when the public has made it clear that they don’t want independence would be a constant reminder of ukip’s failure.
- global city
  
  The only reason why Farage should not be seen as the head of the OUT campaign is because it must not become associated with a single political party.
  - Mary Ann
    
    Why not?
- Mary Ann
  
  Keep Nige, he’s brill.
- milford
  
  Daniel Hannan?
  - Lady Magdalene
    
    Arrogant; peppers his speeches with Shakespeare; and has a record of criticising the NHS and calling for an insurance-based system. The IN campaign would go for the man ….
    
    Oh …. and he also went on record in the DT about 3 years ago saying that he would be content to stay in the EU providing any proposed EU Laws had to be approved by the British Parliament.
    
    I don’t trust him ….. he’ll sell out.
    - Mary Ann
      
      Cameron has the veto.
  - Diggery Whiggery
    
    No, I’ve seen him debating. He’s great giving a prepared speech to a respectful audience, but under questioning he becomes too urgent and high pitched in his panic to get his point across. He also comes across as a clever man who rather knows that he’s clever.
    - milford
      
      I see, that’s a pity because he’s very passionate about getting shot of the EU.
- goodsoldier
  
  There should not be one leader of the Out campaign. There should be as many as possible, from the Left and Right. Many on the Left know that the EU is a con, and that it is not on the side of the workers.
John Carins

As with the UKIP leader debacle, the media and “in” camp will deliberately look to magnify differences. It is vital that the “out” camp has absolute discipline in delivering and supporting the “out” argument.
- Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
  
  You will lose ……..and I will both laugh and dance on your grave.
  - styants64
    
    Why because the EU are doing such a fine job, I hope when the time comes John is buried at sea.
    - REPman20260
      
      Very good lol
  - John Carins
    
    Not very nice. Have you learned the difference between gross and net immigration yet?
    - REPman20260
      
      He has to be able to see through his own prejudice first.
  - LittleRedRidingHood
    
    And you probably said Labour would win. See how pointless you are?
- LittleRedRidingHood
  
  Absolutely agree. Where do we sign up?
misomiso

Well done Stuart – at last the Eurosceptics are starting to move the debate.

Nigel CAN NOT lead the debate, nor should he even play a major role.

The UKIPers are making the same mistake William Hague and IDS made in the 90’a and early 2000’s. They are looking at polls showing them how big an issue immigration is, and are determined to run on it, but talking about it turns off huge amounts of the electorate and allows our opponents to paint us as extreme.

Instead we must treat this as a US presidential election. The base (soverignty, Immigration) is so locked up we don’t even have to mention immigration, we need now to WIN the economic argument and destroy our opponents credibility. Go very positive and very negative.

There’s a lot at stake here now. The federalists are already framing the debate in their favour, we need to get organised, quickly.

And call Dominic Cummings!
- Mary Ann
  
  But if Nigel cannot lead the debate he has no alternative but to resign again, him taking a step back would simply make him look inadequate
  - REPman20260
    
    He doesn’t need to “take a step back”, he will do as he has done with getting the referendum in the first place, he’ll take the LEAD. Even after the election, Cameron is dancing to Nigel’s tune.
- sandy winder
  
  If uncontrolled immigration turns off voters why is the majority of people in favour of controlling it?
William_Brown

The reason that this column has been written is that the pro EU (note, not ‘Europe’) lobby are running scared. They are well aware that Farage is a strong and honest leader – something which the country craves, but hasn’t had in decades. We know you’re on the run and we won’t stop giving chase – the game’s up.
- Bluebottle
  
  You people never accept reality, do you?
  - William_Brown
    
    Us and four million others. Now Buzz off…
    - Bluebottle
      
      Which just leaves the remainder of the population….perhaps Ukip should adopt UB40’s “I am a one in ten” as a theme tune (or an ambition)?
      - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
        
        They are a one in 14.
      - REPman20260
        
        Then why are you on nearly every UKIP related thread whining and bleating about them? If the UKIP is so insignificant, they wouldn’t be a threat to your world would they? You’re so clouded by your own hatred and prejudice that you can’t even see what you’ve become.A collage of your responses would show just how bitter and twisted you are.
        
        The irony for people like you, is that the Tory majority, was was a) On the back of the SNP surge, which primarily was as a result of a collapse of Labour support and b) That by attacking UKIP, the awkward squad of the unions and the Labour party, took their eye off of the Tory threat; they lost as a result and are now squealing like stuck pigs.
    - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
      
      3.75 million
      - William_Brown
        
        : )
- Sarkastracus
  
  Stuart Wheeler is pro-EU?
- Magic Lemur
  
  If the OUT camp want to win, we need to be humble, not think the battle is won and that Farage is unquestionably the best thing since sliced bread.
  - Mary Ann
    
    Of course he is the best thing since sliced bread.
    - Magic Lemur
      
      There is a line in the above article you should read: “I am pleased to read that Nigel does not want to be in charge of the Out campaign.”
      No point arguing in favour of him when he doesn’t want it, is there?
  - William_Brown
    
    The battle is far from won and humility is indeed required – but let’s not forget strength of character and our sense of purpose – they are not mutually exclusive.
Baron

The premise for the loss of support for Farage this piece is based on is wrong.

Many of those who would have voted Ukip (Tory, Labour, the undecided) have in the end backed the Tories for fear the near communist Labour together with the fully chauvinistic SNP taking over the country. The voters rightly guessed this would have broken down the United Kingdom with both parts remaining in the EU vassals to the new Teutonic power.
- Mary Ann
  
  Near communist Labour, come on, Labour is centre right.
  - Sharon Fruitcake
    
    That is a statement of such profound clarity in a global context that I indeed could not resist to upvote it.
    - Mary Ann
      
      Political compass, try it it’s fun.
      - Gregory Mason
        
        Newsflash, the political compass does not determine whether something is Left or Right, willingness to use ‘force’ is.
      - Mary Ann
        
        I suppose it depends on what your view of left and right are, for me left means looking after the weak and right means looking after me.
      - Gregory Mason
        
        That sentence just highlights that you know nothing about what the Right stands for.
      - Jen The Blue
        
        I agree. It is the typical extreme leftist view that they, by definition, have the moral high ground and are the only people that care. They are incapable of even contemplating that, for example, cutting benefits can and will improve the lot of the poorest in society.
      - Mary Ann
        
        Yes I do, it means the disabled paying for the follies of the bankers.
      - Jen The Blue
        
        How have the disabled had to pay? Do they not have pensions? Or bank deposits
        that needed protecting? Or are all the
        disabled, in your leftist mind, helpless people who rely on the state?
      - Steve
        
        And the millions who die as a result of pogroms or famines in far left States ?
      - Rob74Eroticus
        
        Please give us details. I’d particularly like to hear about how the disable people will be cared for when the the 1% have been driven out.
      - John McPartland
        
        I’m sure stalin agreed as he set off on a purge. Ditto Mao etc etc ad nauseum.
      - Mary Ann
        
        Killing people is not looking after the weak, use some common sense.
      - woolfiesmiff
        
        Try telling that to the family of the victims of Labours NHS in Mid Staffs
      - Steve
        
        Lol you are aware that Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao were left wing icons aren’t you ?
      - woolfiesmiff
        
        And therein lies your problem Mary Ann because in reality the “right” do a far better job of looking after the weak and vulnerable whilst the “left” are dependent on creating and keeping more people weak and vulnerable. The left have been rumbled by the people and are now history
      - kazibeth
        
        So the Tories are looking after the weak and vulnerable by repealing the Human Rights Act, are they?
        
        The Hillsborough families, and numerous of the “weak and vulnerable” on an individual basis that I have read about, would have been unable to get justice without using the Human Rights Act, so I suspect we will all suffer now.
        
        Tories looking after the weak and vulnerable – don’t make me laugh!
      - Jen The Blue
        
        I would add, since you bring up Hillsborough, that there has been a double re-writing of history.
        Yes, the police lied, yes the police were so unbelievably corrupt it is hard to imagine they got away with it for so long….but FFS…….who trusts the police? You’d have to mad. They lie to get convictions and they lie to protect their own. The IPPC buys whitewash by tonne…..police corruption is routine……the instances are endless…..spying on the Laurence family, Stefan Kiskcow, Jill Dando trial…..it goes on and on and on……
        BUT….if there had not been a crowd of drunk Liverpool fans trying to get into Hillsborough without tickets, the police would not have made the disastrous decision to open the gates.
      - Jen The Blue
        
        Let me own up Kazibeth……as a right winger …..the reason I believe what I do is because I love to cause pain to those tossers less fortunate than myself. I love thinking about them in their misery….struggling to eat, struggling to make ends meet…I delight in it. It makes the cost of my servants so much cheaper. But the poor are not real people……they don’t matter…….so I vote for what is best for me regardless of the rest of society.
        There Kazibeth…….does that help justify your warped view of the right?
      - kazibeth
        
        No, not at all – but it does justify my fast developing opinion that you are simply a hysterical ranter who is unable to conduct any sort of logical debate!
      - Jen The Blue
        
        If you say so.
      - Steve
        
        what has the human rights act to do with Hillsborough ?
      - Jen The Blue
        
        Yes Look at Brown and his attempt to make everyone……even those earning £50 000 reliant on benefits. Look at how he expanded State employment to make people reliant on the state. The state creates sod all…it was all a cynical ploy to induce people to vote for Labour….the party of the massive state. Then there was the mass Muslim immigration…..which will bite the British Labour supporters as much as the rest of us, as Sharia takes over as it already is. Legislation is being prepared right now, to “outlaw Islamophobia”….meaning “make criticism of Islam illegal”.
        We may as well not have bothered fighting for our freedom.
      - Steve
        
        Indeed Browns creation of a client State was one of his most mendacious acts.
      - Jen The Blue
        
        Yes. Not trying to patronising at all…..but this is what we on the right feel you lefties think too….It isn’t so.,
        
        That is my big problem with leftists…..not that they disagree with me about policy, but that they think they are the ones that care and we on the right don’t. It is bollocks. I would argue with certainty the right has done far more for the poor than the left ever has.
      - Bertie
        
        Interesing assessment.
        
        “for me left means looking after the weak and right means looking after me.”
        
        Looks as if the Left are equally guilty of looking after themselves – in fact , I’d claim probably more so as they choose to do it with SOMEONE ELSE’S hard earned money rather than their own!
        
        The Right is all about encouraging people to get off their arses and help themselves ratehr than relying on someone else to do it for them for no effort…
      - Steve
        
        Right means smaller state and left means larger state. Simple. Now with that definition were the National Socialist and Fascists left or right? The answer is surprising to many but there you go.
      - Rob74Eroticus
        
        You have a very naive view of the world.
  - Jen The Blue
    
    Bit lost here. Cameron is centre left, Liberals are soft left, but you say Labour are centre right? Completely lost. Red Ed? Regulate this, tax that, spend and borrow. Huge state. We know what is best for you. Don’t criticise Islam we will make it illegal? Success measured by money spent not actual achievement….NHS run for employees not patients…
    - kazibeth
      
      Ah, the scatter-gun approach – beloved by those who can’t actually discuss individual issues intelligently!
      - Jen The Blue
        
        I am quite happy to discuss any or all of those in detail.
- Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
  
  Labour is nothing like a communist party .Are you mad?
  - styants64
    
    No they are just crap nation wreckers.
- UKSteve
  
  No.
  
  This was cr4p cooked up by the Tories, and it worked perfectly.
  
  Farago and his personality cult could be incredibly damaging to the “Out” campaign, by their constant mantras of “£56 million per day” and other brainless cr4p.
  
  Best it’s led by someone who’s done the research over years, really knows their onions, and can make a convincing case.
  - sandy winder
    
    But UKIP led by Farage won the EU elections on the basis of leaving the EU. If there is someone better placed to lead the OUT campaign then name names. I have no idea who this ‘someone’ you mention is.
    
    Also Wheeler oddly talks about Farage having no credibility at Westminster if he is not an MP but does not seem to realise that the SNP and the Greens have no problem with the fact their leaders are not MPs.
    - yaosxx
      
      At the end of the day it’s all about “Get Farage” because he’s so damned effective!
    - Brian K
      
      ‘won’ on a very small share of the potential vote.
      
      the key is 51%. 51% to win, Nigel is a very good speaker and debater but that’s it. As a strategist and ideas person he is very lacking, his main policy sadly has become to attack immigrants and be rude and contentious with it. That will do nothing, it will attract a minority but be rejected bu a majority.
      
      Ukip has become ‘his’ party he thinks he owns it and acts like he does. That cannot be transferred over to the referendum campaign and he tries to lead it we might as well all pack up now and go home.
      - Sapporo
        
        Criticising mass immigration is not “attacking immigrants”, its common sense.
      - Jen The Blue
        
        Indeed. It is the left’s now futile cry of “Waaaaaycist” that has lost its sting. I don’t believe in multiculturalism. It has been a disaster for the west. Particularly Islamic immigration which is massive danger to the west and our freedoms (see how Miliband promised to make Islamophobia illegal?)
        Well, I don’t give a two shiny shits if the progressive left thinks I am a racist….they are utterly wrong…..but I don’t care because I don’t respect their own racist opinions……that because an immigrant is not white, they are beyond criticism for their views. There lies the left’s racism.
        Islam is supremacist, violent, misogynistic and evil…..and I am not racist for saying it just because most Muslims are not white. There is NO RACE OF ISLAM…..it is an evil religio-political system.
        And yes, I accept not all “Muslims” believe the bullshit they are supposed to…….so no, I am not anti-Muslim in any way…..I take as I find.
        But FFS, grow up world……….Islam is evil, it teaches evil, its scriptures are evil, its traditions are evil. Just be honest!
    - UKSteve
      
      The EU elections don’t amount to a hill of beans, never have or will until the UK parliament is abolished, which UKIP said would happen in 2014. I’ve no idea why desperate ‘KIPpers trot them out as they are meaningless. A poll was conducted between 2009 – 14, and found that virtually no-one outside of party activists could name a single MEP in their region! Oddly enough, the EU parliament elections are the only ones not sabotaged by the party leadership in my memory.
      
      Farage has absolutely zero credibility in the EUrosceptic cause, and he’s an MEP. But when he IS in the parliament, he’s probably p1s$ed. the list of critical votes passed without MEPs attending is incredible, some of them harmed UK interests, and were passed by only ONE vote! Where were the UKIp campaigns for fisheries reform (clue: Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall), or the Treaty of Lisbon, which removed all opt-outs and border restrictions?
      
      UKIP would soon rant on about “£56 million per day” – which is utter carp – than do the serious work.
      
      No-one gives a toss about the Greens, but as for the SNP, they have 56 / 59 seats – incredible. Nicola Sturgeon is Leader of the SNP, and she is MSP for Glasgow Southside, IIRC?
      - Jen The Blue
        
        Yes but most people don’t know who their MP is!
        I disagree Farage has no credibility in the Eurosceptic cause but I do accept that in a referendum his “methods” will not attract OUT votes from everyone….we need a more inclusive coalition.
      - UKSteve
        
        I disagree with your MP comment – you’re quite wrong in my experience. But as I’ve always said – archives will prove it – that the rag, tag and bob-tail anti-EU groups / blogs need a unifying figure. I’ve never understood the point of the point of, e.g. the CIB or TFA – they’re not even pressure groups!
        
        But Dr. Richard North – whom I regard as the principle thought-leader of the UK exit strategy made a serious and interesting point about ‘several leaders’ in a blog post recently.
        
        And he points out what many believe – Nigel Farage and UKIP are absolutely toxic to the UK-exit cause.
  - Mary Ann
    
    But their followers like it and it isn’t necessary for them to understand the good things we get out of the EU
    - UKSteve
      
      Whatever we get out of the EU, it is not now and never has been the price we pay for membership. It is an utterly evil, parasitic, bureaucratic, completely useless entity.
      - Mary Ann
        
        No it isn’t, it is a good idea.
      - UKSteve
        
        How?
      - Jen The Blue
        
        No doubt you would like, ultimately, a World Government, based on divide and rule?
        I bet you believe in anthropogenic global warming too? God preserve us!
      - Jen The Blue
        
        “”utterly evil, parasitic, bureaucratic, completely useless entity.””
        I think you are being far too generous to the EU. It is far more damaging to freedom and dangerous to democracy than that.
        The fact it is useless (it is), parasitic( it is) and beaurocratic (it is) are the least of its problems.
    - goodsoldier
      
      Please tell us about all the good things you get from the EU. And don’t tell me it improves worker’s rights. It does the opposite.
- Earthenware
  
  It’s also wrong in that it assumes that Nigel’s would be the single high-profile voice in an “out” campaign.
  
  While we can’t resurrect Tony Benn, I suspect that there will still be senior Labour figures campaigning for exit. There will also be Tories like Hannan of course, but no-one trusts them any more.
  
  Nigel will be just one of many.
- Noa
  
  Wheeler and UKIP’s fellow “Bastards’ fail to propose an alternative leader. They are, like other anti-EU figures such as Richard North, unwilling to recognise that the collective sum of their contributing parts is less than Farage whole.
JSC

Am I right in understand this as “the Tories will support Farage… but only if he plays no part”? What make you think the public can trust the Tories to actually petition for a ‘no’ and not put on a half-hearted performance to get out of a referendum they’d rather not be having in the first place?
- Mary Ann
  
  Well you can hardly blame them if they do, Cameron has little courage, after all he would never have promised a referendum in the first place if he hadn’t been scared by ukip, he allowed his fear to overcome his common sense.
  - McQueue
    
    Common sense? They don’t teach “common” sense at Eton, Dahling!!
    - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
      
      But they do teach how to sense “common”.
      - McQueue
        
        Rah rah rah , we’re going to smash the oiks!
        
        —– Reply message —–
  - Jen The Blue
    
    I am no fan of Cameron, but are you saying it is wrong to let the people decide whether we remain governed from abroad?
    - Mary Ann
      
      Right, wrong, what is necessary to have a referendum is for those people who vote to have all the correct information and most people seem to believe the garbage dished out by the Murdoch press, and the Daily hate mail.
      - Jen The Blue
        
        What is right and what is wrong? It is one of the peculiarities of the left that they see what their papers print as truth and others as “garbage”. Yes, there is much drivel in the Mail (mostly quack medical stories from the few times I have seen it recently), but there is the Guardian and Independent and all the press.
        
        From my viewpoint I am fed up with the perpetual lies that the pro EU campaigners say about the jobs that “depend” on membership. It is just a lie. But the pro-lobby repeat it like a mantra.
        
        What it seems to that you want is a rigged referendum. Which, alas, is what we will get.
      - kazibeth
        
        Just because you do not understand how millions of jobs depend on our membership of the EU, that doesn’t make it “a lie”.
        I could explain it all to you if I had a week or two – but will simply give you one example –
        
        Feng Zhongping, the assistant president of the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations, said:
        
        “I think from China’s point of view we don’t think that the UK,
        or France or Germany or any single European countries can play a global role. But the EU is different. It is the biggest market, and China’s biggest trade partner. The EU is seen as a major power in the world. If the UK left, it would hurt the UK much more than the EU.”
      - Jen The Blue
        
        Oh well, that must be true then! Evidence? No, just opinion.
        
        And what I said was right….nobody can demonstrate there would be ANY job losses from leaving the EU. Europe needs our market….and we need the world market, instead of being “little Europeans” in a global market.
        
        How inward thinking and narrow minded.
      - goodsoldier
        
        What about all the garbage that Timothy Garton Ash and WIll Hutton dish out in the Guardian? They are the most oily characters around.
    - kazibeth
      
      Your question is a dishonest one – the basic premise is flawed!
      Like that other oft-quoted question “When did you stop beating your wife?”
      
      We are not governed from abroad – that phrase is always being trotted out( along with the “sovereignty” cr*p) and that is all it is – a meaningless soundbite!
      - Jen The Blue
        
        No it isn’t. For example…….who decides whether, say, fox hunting is legal or not in Scotland, or what the drink drive alcohol limit is in Scotland? Is it Holyrood or Westminster?
        
        Your argument is that it is Westminster, because Holyrood only has powers because Westminster gives it those powers.
        
        But in reality, we know Holyrood decides. So in the same way, we are substantially governed from Europe and have no say in, well, depending on who you ask, up to 80% of our laws.
        
        Your argument is correct, only in the fact we give Europe that power and can revoke it (by leaving the EU), as Westminster could abolish the Scottish Parliament legally and revoke those powers the Scottish Parliament has.
        
        But isn’t that the essence of the “get out of the EU” argument? That we reclaim that governance for Westminster from the EU?
      - kazibeth
        
        Again, your question about “reclaiming governance” is based on a flawed premise that “we have no say in up to 80% of our laws”.
        
        “Reclaiming governance” just seems to be a replacement soundbite to “reclaiming sovereignty”, and just repeating a soundbite still does not justify it with any evidence!
- Autonomous Mind
  
  It’s not Farage’s campaign at all.
  
  The man has no plan for a referendum campaign. He has no plan for what happens if ‘out’ wins the referendum. He denied a referendum would happen. He campaigned against the only party offering one.
  
  More voters have consistently said they want to leave the EU than support UKIP. Farage is damaged goods who will harm the ‘out’ campaign. Besides, party political leaders cannot lead the campaign.
  - Andy M
    
    Well if Farage isn’t running it, I for one will be voting to stay in. I doubt I’m alone in this.
    - realfish
      
      I am inclined to vote out. I would like my country (and its self determination) back. But am willing to listen to the arguments…to the facts
      
      To have to line up behind Farage would really make me think twice about voting ‘OUT’. I doubt I am alone in this.
LoveMeIamALiberal

All this talk of ‘softening the tone’ is insulting the public; they’re smart enough to see through presentation style and understand the facts. Stuart Wheeler ignores Farage’s performances in the EU debates with Nick Clegg; clear victories to Nigel. There are bound to be such head to head debates in the EU referendum – who would he rather have representing the Out side?
- Isage000
  
  You beat me to it- Was just about to say it insults the intelligence of the British public. The fact is there is no-one else with anything like the depth of knowledge, passion, determination and magnetic stage presence to defeat the establishment propaganda machine.
  - Sarkastracus
    
    The voters of Thanet South thought otherwise.
    - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
      
      He is an Ass with a capital A.
      - styants64
        
        Four million Brits voted for UKIP what does that make them you arrogant Tory rsol.
    - Roger Hudson
      
      Are you sure about that?
      - Mary Ann
        
        Ummm, he lost. and he had the choice of every seat in the country, can’t blame that on FPTP
      - sandy winder
        
        He may have lost the battle through the Victorian voting system but he hasn’t lost the war. UKIP are in the position the UK was in in 1940.
Con Fused

Looks like a reasonable argument. People may vote for the principle of out, who would feel uncomfortable joining Farage’s cult.
- Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
  
  I would feel uncomfortable
Felixthecat

I kinda agree, but if it wasn’t for Farage, you would be all scratching your arse at some Libertarian groupuscule like the Freedom Association, with no influence whatsoever, while the EU would be heading full pelt towards Federalism.
- Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
  
  Faridge has always been a fool, but Wheeler is the bigger fool for being parted with his cash to fund the lesser fool’s ego trip.
  - Jeff Thompson
    
    Rapist-Loving Kunt.
Fried Ch’i

I believe Labour should lead the OUT camp. Just for fun and in the interest of sticking with the two party Lab Con state we all so cherish. That’s how it works, right?
- Magic Lemur
  
  Good idea, although I would question who you could get in Labour to lead the OUT camp – Kate Hoey? Kelvin Hopkins? Dennis Skinner?
  Sadly Labour are often an example of groupthink.
  - Fried Ch’i
    
    I have no objections with regards to Labour groupthinking OUT in the interest of preserving the two party Lab Con state. That’s how the two party Lab Con state is supposed to work, is it not?
    
    Or in other words, if there is no party in parliament making the case for OUT (why isn’t there one, they did get FOUR MILLION votes, ok?), then there is no debate to be had, or at least that debate would appear somewhat fake. Am I right, again?
    - συκοφάντης
      
      The British prefer to debate in pubs not Parliament.
      - Sten vs Bren
        
        The British plot in pubs but actual political debates are not to be encouraged in that precious drinking space.
    - Magic Lemur
      
      Actually UKIP does have an MP, or does Douglas Carswell not count?
      
      UKIP is *not* the OUT campaign, just as the SNP were not the ‘Yes’ campaign. It strikes me you have despaired too quickly about Labour, thus dismissing a whole swathe of left wing Eurosceptics (such as Kate Hoey, Kelvin Hopkins, etc) before you’ve even begun.
      - Fried Ch’i
        
        Perhaps I have, who knows.
        
        Perhaps it’s just not possible to have a representational debate in a Parliament which truly reflects society as a whole simply because Parliament isn’t truly representational. That I know.
        
        4 million votes, one seat.
        QE f e c k i n D
      - Mary Ann
        
        How many candidates did they put up, twelve and a half percent of the vote, SNP put up 50 something candidates and got 50% of the vote where they stood, that’s why they did so much better, remember the referendum when we the people voted to keep FPTP, a referendum is fine if you get the result you want.
      - Fried Ch’i
        
        Are you telematch’s replacement, you Labour troll?
Warren Whitmore

Nigel clearly is a divisive figure. But is Nigel himself the divisive figure, or isn’t it rather the media caricature, that people object to? Were anyone else to lead the campaign, they would face equal levels of opprobrium and character assassination from our Europhile mainstream media.
- Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
  
  No, he is a purring, thick skinned , gentle narcissist.
- Mary Ann
  
  The media didn’t force him to complain about foreigners on trains, coming from a man who it paid by the tax payer to work in Europe is a trifle foolish.
rtj1211

Well, I guess the question is, if not him, who?? And why??

It’s very hard to see how David Cameron can lead it as we don’t know yet whether he’ll recommend leaving or staying in with negotiated changes. In fact, I can’t see how anyone in the Cabinet can realistically lead it given that situation.

The difficulty with this whole ‘campaign’ is this: unlike the SNP having 18 months to shape debate on an Independence Referendum, because they were elected upon a platform of holding one and recommending Yes, the EU situation is in flux because we don’t know what we’re having a referendum on. It is my considered opinion that the powers that be want that situation because they know that to hold the line over 18 months with scaremongering and lying is impossible, whereas to hold the line for 6 weeks doing that is meat and drink to the professional media operations.

My view is that the ‘campaign’ has to start now and it has to start with simple education of the electorate on the following things:

1. What is our gross contribution annually to the EU??
2. Which regions receive how much back in EU grants??
3. Hence what are the net contributions of different regions of the UK to the EU coffers??
4. How have those figures evolved over the past 40 years??

Those four questions should tell you which regions cough up and which regions are grateful beneficiaries, which will probably tell you who has the biggest financial incentives to leave and which have the narrow reasons to leave, based on taxation paid in EU dues.

5. What benefits accrue to the UK economy from being in the EU?
i. Financial services?
ii. Manufacturing?
iii. Culture Media and Sport?

This should be discussed in terms of trade, jobs, FDI, cultural diversity etc?

6. What indirect costs accrue to the UK economy from being in the EU?
i. Infrastructure costs, public services costs and housing costs associated with freedom of movement (be that direct costs payable due to immigration/migration as well as indirect costs payable to indiginous British people due to the effect of that migration taking place)
ii. Costs in terms of societal tensions?
iii. What are the analagous reductions in costs due to British people migrating to work/live in the other parts of the EU?

This covers the tendentious topics of immigration, population control and strains on schools, hospitals etc etc.

7. What would be the near-term costs/benefits of leaving the EU?

i. Who gets to stay and who has to come back?
ii. Which trading patterns will be adversely affected by a Brexit?
iii. How would they be counterbalanced with new business won around the world?
iv. What would be the effect on FDI?

8. What is the long-term nature of the EU?
i. Is it a corporacratic US of E with analagous “Patriot Acts’ to keep us dumbed down and compliant??
ii. Is it an organisation which glories in stable family businesses, thriving local communities and local diversity?
iii. Is it the Fourth Reich with Germany ‘winning World War III without a shot being fired?’
iv. If none of the above, then what?

9. Can Britain actually change the long-term nature of the EU if we are not comfortable with it’s evolution?
i. Yes if we start engaging diplomatically as we should have been for the past 40 years?
ii. Only with luck and use of the dark arts?
iii. No?

10. Are we as a nation comfortable being a non-sovereign actor within a United States of Europe?
i. Yes, after we have been dragged kicking and screaming up to the top table?
ii. Not as it is currently constituted?
iii. Absolutely no way?

11. What do we do as a UK if Scotland, Wales and/or Northern Ireland wants to stay in but England doesn’t?
i. Break up the UK and let England exit Europe?
ii. Force the whole of the UK to exit?
iii. Force England to stay in against her will??

12. Have we actively investigated whether the Commonwealth would be comfortable with a Brexit and a greater focus on Commonwealth-based trade?
i. Absolutely (well, then, show us the data)?
ii. We’ve sort of well had a few sort of chats with the odd chappie you know (well why not order the FCO to set some chins wagging sharpish then)?
iii. We’ll muddle through as we usually do (yeah right)??

That doesn’t of course cover the deal the Germans want to make to form a hard inner Euro core with a non-euro periphary. We can’t really get into that yet as there isn’t a hard proposal on the table.

But it really would behove the actors out there to focus on educating the people truthfully rather than the usual political approach of spinning, lying and distorting for narrow, selfish interests.

I wonder who will rise up as statesmen/women to perform that essential task for the British people, eh??
Magic Lemur

Farage doesn’t want the job, so why are so many people keen for him to be put forward for it? Here are just a few of the alternative candidates:

Suzanne Evans – under-rated IMHO
Dan Hannan MEP – would unite the right
Gisela Stuart MP – would bring in support from Labour / left wingers
Caroline Lucas MP – may be too busy, but would make the democratic case much stronger
- Mary Ann
  
  But Farage has to lead the NO campaign or resign, to stay on and not lead it would be an admission of failure.
- Mary Ann
  
  So Farage doesn’t want the job, is that because he knows he’s going to loose and then he really would have to stay resigned, so give the job to someone else, a poison chalice a bit like the one Blair handed to Brown.
Jannerman

However regrettable, I think Mr Wheeler is spot on over this. I am a great admirer and supporter of Nigel Farage, BUT, the country as a whole is not, and as harsh as it is, he must agree to take a step back and play a supporting role rather than being seen as the face of the campaign. The end, if successful, will justify the means.
- Mary Ann
  
  Yes you may be right but it would be the end of his career, you simply cannot have him not leading the out campaign, it would look silly.
  - Jannerman
    
    As I say, it’s regrettable for Mr Farage personally. But, the chance to restore our national sovereignty, democracy and self determination is worth any sacrifice. Thousands upon thousands of British & Commonwealth soldiers have laid down their lives to protect those freedoms which have been so traitorously signed away by successive governments. We cannot dishonour them.
    - Mary Ann
      
      But Churchill was in favour of the idea, he didn’t want to see so many people die again in yet another European war and of course he was a founding father of the ECHR
      - Jannerman
        
        No, no. Churchill said, ““We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not combined. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed.”
        
        He was in favour of Europe uniting, but he did not see Great Britain as part of it:
        
        “For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose.”
        
        Winston Churchill
      - Robbydot1
        
        He never meant it to apply to Britain though, we had well established freedoms already.
  - Robbydot1
    
    Mary Ann, much as I love and value Nigel this goes well beyond one man’s career. Anyway, I don’t agree with your premise, why would it end his career? Nigel could have a prominent role without leading the campaign and it would show he puts Country before ego, as I’m sure he does.
    - Mary Ann
      
      But it would make him look weak an if he looks weak his cause will also look weak………
      - Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
        
        How hard is it to make a total ass look weak?
Singularis

As a eurosceptic, I want Nigel to play a part in the Out campaign, but I also recognise that the scale of the task means that each eurosceptic, from the Left & the Right need to have a platform to speak to those people they best communicate with.
Nigel cannot connect with every potential eurosceptic voter, just as Lucas cant with many on the Right, in much the same way that they stood side by side on the elctoral reform agenda.
It isnt about Nigel or anyone else, it is about the future of this country, bigger than any party or individual.
- Jen The Blue
  
  Absolutely ….well said. Nigel needs to play a part. He is an excellent speaker and debater. But so do the likes of Hannon and hopefully many in the Cabinet. But we also need those on the left who still believe in democracy to come to our aid.
  - Singularis
    
    There are many on the Left that do, especially in terms of the anti-democratic nature of the EU.
Warren Whitmore

Eurosceptic Tories are telling Kippers to put party before country, and stay away from the ‘out’ campaign. However, doing so means rejecting the sole unequivocally Eurosceptic party, together with the best known and most charismatic Eurosceptic leader. Perhaps it is the Eurosceptic Tories who should be putting party before country, by embracing the leadership of Europe’s leading Eurosceptic politician, a certain Nigel Farage.
- Mary Ann
  
  But of course they will all put their own careers first, but look at Nigel, he put his party first he wanted a private health care system but he knew that ukip would be doomed if he put the idea too forward so he backed the NHS.
Unity

Stuart, you can’t even get the date right.
kazdix

Good grief you “journalists” really HATE the guy don’t you? – so much bile is bad for your digestive tract you know.
- milford
  
  This is the most complementary piece I’ve ever seen on Nigel in the press.
- Yvon & Barry Stuart-Hargreaves
  
  The journo’s underdo it. Faridge is much worse than they ever say.
- Sten vs Bren
  
  He’s not a journalist and he’s praising your man. Pay attention to what he’s saying.
  - Mary Ann
    
    Give him some slack.
    - Sten vs Bren
      
      No, thank you.
      - Mary Ann
        
        Come on, he is a supporter of ukip, he can’t help it.
  - REPman20260
    
    No he’s not, it’s akin to shaking Nigel’s hand and convey how he much he admires the man, while he reaches around with the other hand to plunge the knife into his back.
G B

‘Softening the tone’, whilst I can understand it I don’t like it. A soft message is likely to be read by the masses as another attempt to insult our intelligence. The election did it for most of us with all the parties being so on message that most of us logged off. It was Farage that woke us up, Farage that was not frightened to go headlong into the debate, Farage who gave as good as he got and Farage who got them all on the run. Granted he will need a lot of help from moderate intelligent orators and hopefully some heavyweights from industry and finance but lose Farage and you could well lose some of the core support.
Lady Magdalene

Mr Farage has already said that he would not be the right person to lead the OUT campaign.

But he IS the right person to lead UKIP.

Co-operation works both ways. Perhaps the Conservative EU-sceptics who so object to Mr Farage should reflect on that a little. After all ….. they had 30 odd years to get a Referendum and achieved precisely nothing. Farage effectively did it in 5 years.

Personally, I doubt if the likes of Dan Hannan with his superior attitude; continual quoting of Shakespeare and nothing even remotely approaching “the common touch” would be the right man either.
- Mary Ann
  
  It was the Tories who took us into the EU they don’t want a referendum.
Sten vs Bren

“we need a quiet, well-reasoned approach to convince the waverers”

Yes. Based solely on the most significant and positive aspect; democratic self determination.

If UKIP can keep the frothers and the ranters locked in the pub until the referendum is won.
Malus Pudor

The next great con is just around the corner….

Cameron will receive token concessions from that abysmal pairing of Merkel and Hollande who are terrified that a UK exit in the wake of the catastrophic Greek debacle would be a straw that might indeed prove to much for the corrupt fiasco they run in Brussels through puppets in Luxembourg and Belgium.

Cameron, armed with empty promises from these despots, will then promote a no vote in any referendum that is then offered to the citizens of the UK.

Having achieved his aim of remaining within the EU he will then allow those reptiles, Hollande & Merkel, to renege on all the concessions made to the UK.

We will continue to fund and subsidise French hill farmers in the Alps, while our own dairy farmers are threatened with bankruptcy from an inability to cull tubercular badgers and the vindictive meanness and exploitation of our faceless supermarkets and take pointless diktats from unelected bureaucrats in Brussels or Strasbourg.

Enough is enough….

Whatever the concessions, let’s be shot of these European pariahs and leeches who seek to diminish and demean our once great country of which they are both so jealous and vindictive ….
- Mary Ann
  
  http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/
  - dolusbonus
    
    Your point being what ?
    - Mary Ann
      
      Democracy in the EU,
IrishNeanderthal

Let’s try a bit of EUmour, with this little poem by the great German comedian Heinz Erhardt. It fits the “Ode to Joy” so well, you could sing it whenever that tune is played, especially if Edward Heath comes to mind. (Translation follows.)

Hirngespinst

Eine runde weiche Sache,
ist das Hirn bei Frau und Mann,
und es ist nicht auszudenken,
was man damit denken kann.
Aber leider kennen viele
nicht den Wert dieser Substanz:
Hilflos gehen sie durchs Leben
Wie ’ne Katze ohne Schwanz.

Fantasy

A round soft thing
Is the brain in women and men,
and there is no telling
what one can think with it.
But unfortunately many people
Do not know the value of this substance:
Helpless, they go through life
Like a cat without a tail.
Josh Smith

UKIP voters want Farage, he is a charismatic leader who made a huge impact and has a national profile. Appealing to the media platforms and people who will NEVER vote with Euro-sceptics nor right-wing parties is why UKIP took so many Tory votes/sympathies in the first place. This attitude is why Cameron is seen as so wet and of course the Conservatives don’t want Farage in the out campaign he will eclipse them.
- Mary Ann
  
  The majority of Tories don’t want Britain to leave the EU.
  - Josh Smith
    
    Right, but they are aware of the conservative base’s reluctance and mistrust of Europe so Farage would eclipse the Tory speakers with his favourable position and charisma…
    - Mary Ann
      
      charisma?
      - Josh Smith
        
        You want a definition or an explanation? Christ.
        Fine well done; you’re pedantic and aloof and need to reply to EVERY comment.
      - Mary Ann
        
        Charismatic, he gives me the creeps.
      - Josh Smith
        
        Right, well Sturgeon gives me the creeps as does her communist mate Salmond but it would be a fool who didn’t realise they had a charisma. Which I acknowledge regardless of my feeling.
        However you are right, I should have guessed a stranger’s sensibilities and feelings and properly explained how this was a charisma which only certain people were susceptible to, like every person who is charismatic ever, otherwise a rude, entitled woman may throw one word questions at me in a condescending manner demanding I explain my position to her majesty. Very odd behaviour indeed.
  - Sten vs Bren
    
    Maybe. Maybe not.
  - Magic Lemur
    
    Actually, at the last count, more than half of Conservative members wanted to leave, which easily trumps the number of UKIPers.
    
    There is absolutely no virtue in this being a purely UKIP campaign.
    - Mary Ann
      
      last count I saw was 60
      - Jeff Thompson
        
        Are you talking about MPs? The poster you replied to was talking about members. You F*cking thick Kunt.
  - goodsoldier
    
    You are right. They love EU corporate socialism and empire building, as you do.
valois777

Nigel Farage cannot lead the Out campaign? Ok, watch him!

We voted in the millions for UKIP (many more millions would’ve voted for them had not been for the prospect of labour in No 10; that was frankly too dreadful a prospect) and the fundamental issues it pushed to the table; and not just the referendum on the EU, but the issue of mass immigration into our country and putting Britain first. These issues must be addressed & delivered by the conservative government.

Nigel Farage is the right leader to ensure these are delivered.
- Mary Ann
  
  http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/5cd640f6-9025-11e3-a776-00144feab7de.html#axzz3ahjHtuGm
- Sten vs Bren
  
  “These issues must be addressed & delivered by the conservative government.”
  
  No; you’ve missed the point. EU exit can not be addressed and delivered by government until a referendum is won.
  
  Banging on about immigration is going to put too many people off because we need more than 50%.
  - Mary Ann
    
    Especially as it is a simple fact that there are almost as many Ex-pats living in Europe as there are EU citizens living in Britain, it makes the immigration issue with the EU look a bit silly and as most people who want to leave, want to because of EU migration, it isn’t something that ukip should push because the facts are out there.
    - LittleRedRidingHood
      
      Yes and those ex pats can get work visas or residency like the rest of the world.
      Is it so difficult to see the sense in this.
      For Christ’s sake.I lived in NZ for best part of a decade. I got a work permit, then applied for residency, then citizenship. It’s not rocket science.I also add I had to jump through hoops to get there in the first place, medicals etc.
      The world existed before the E friggin U.
      - Mary Ann
        
        Did you manage to keep your British Citizenship as well?
      - LittleRedRidingHood
        
        Yes. Dual nationality.
    - Jeff Thompson
      
      I was living in Croatia 4 years before they entered the EU, you F*cking Braindead Mong.
John Andrews

My hunch is that UKIP would do best with a female general and Farage leading the cavalry.
Precambrian

Yes, Farage cannot ‘lead’ the out campaign because Ukip have not done really well in the last general and European elections at all have they…..

Why is there so little journalistic integrity over Ukip? Be professional instead of biased.
pyewacket

Don’t talk rubbish Stuart Wheeler. Nigel Farage is the best anti-EU politician known. I wouldn’t have had a clue which way to vote if Farage hadn’t blasted his way into my consciousness. He got my attention and educated me on the ins and outs of our EU membership. Highly informative, LOUD and clear, that’s what we want. Not softly, softly, mousy, mousy, sorry I treadsy on your easily offended tosies.
- Mary Ann
  
  Has he educated you about this one
  
  http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/5cd640f6-9025-11e3-a776-00144feab7de.html#axzz3ahjHtuGm
  - woohoo002
    
    But the Brits living abroad pay their way 100%, not working on minimum wage and claiming in work benefits and getting treatment from the International Health Service.
    I know as I used to be a Brit working abroad!
    - Mary Ann
      
      Not my experience, I’m living in Brittany now, every British person I know is signed into the French state health care system, I have one friend claiming full disability allowance after he nearly cut his thumb of, he’s a manual worker, a few people who have lived here for years and never filled in a tax return, one of them is now complaining that he won’t get a pension. Someone else who is being paid 600 euros a month by the state to learn French full time, so they can get a job couple of English gyppos who thankfully don’t steal of their friends, people who have lived here for 20 years and still haven’t got past Bonjour…….And quiet a few decent law abiding people who do their bit, go to French lessons and integrate with the local population, although even those of us who go to French lessons end up spending most of our time with English speaking people, it’s so much easier.
- inglese in italia
  
  If Farage is the leader of the Out campaign and has 50% coverage he automatically becomes highly respected in the eyes of the voters. This would be the end of the “destroy Farage” campaign which has been ongoing for years. The establishment cannot permit him to take this position because he and UKIP would become completely mainstream and who knows what could happen in 2020. This is the only reason for this type of article.
  - pyewacket
    
    Isn’t the author of this article the same Stuart Wheeler who gives big money to UKIP? He’s one of the trouble makers the party can do without. He shouldn’t be allowed to dictate in this way just because he’s bought his way into the party. In fact all political parties have this problem of big donors holding the entire party to ransom whenever they feel like it. If the author of this article is a different Stuart Wheeler, sorry but you should change yer name mate!
    - yaosxx
      
      He is in no way the largest donor – people like Richard Desmond of the Daily Express are far bigger donors and are 100% behind Farage!
      - Catherine Waterman
        
        I didn’t say he was the largest donor. I was replying to another poster who had assumed Wheeler was a journalist writing against UKIP as usual. This is why the article is particularly annoying. Wheeler is no ordinary journalist but a UKIP donor.
        At first he called for Nigel to step down as party leader. He failed at setting up a coup, so now he’s intervening again by asking Nigel to step back a bit in the EU referendum campaign. Who needs party donors like Wheeler? All political parties who receive a large proportion of the vote should be state funded in my opinion. This way they can never be held to ransom by the Unions (Labour) or by financial backers like Wheeler. The issue of Party funding needs to be discussed together with electoral reform.
      - pyewacket
        
        I’m having problems with Disqus again. It drives me mad, having constantly to log in and give a new password, so my reply to Yasosxx appeared as ‘guest’ for some reason I can’t fathom. I’ve had to log in with a new password so many times that I’ve messed up my account!
      - Michael990
        
        I’m afraid the real problem is that poor old Stuart is getting a bit long in the tooth. Now over 80, his best days are behind him. He’s become a sort of rightist version of Heseltine.
      - Mary Ann
        
        You mean, the pornographer, well I suppose it suits.
      - Jeff Thompson
        
        How’s your party’s resident r@pists doing? You F*cking vile Spunktrench.
      - yaosxx
        
        Err, SO WHAT???
    - Chris
      
      Not since March 2009, Wheeler donated £100,000.
- Autonomous Mind
  
  “He got my attention and educated me on the ins and outs of our EU membership.”
  
  This is a joke, right? Farage himself doesn’t understand the ins and outs. He’s never been interested in it and doesn’t do detail. If you think you’re educated about this stuff, God help you.
  - James_MD
    
    You’re getting bogged down in minutiae A-M. Ideally you would be educating people here on how the CBI and the pro-EU establishment are conning people with conflation of the EU with a common market.
    - Mary Ann
      
      I know one thing an awful lot of the electorate doesn’t know that the EU and the ECHR are two different things, they don’t know that Churchill was one of the founding fathers of the ECHR either.
      - Nicholas_Keen
        
        Different but increasingly bound together — a precondition for EU membership.
      - Michael990
        
        Churchill assembled the team for the ECHR on the basis that it would help to rebuild the broken continental nations after WWII. He never saw us as belonging to it since we already had our long established justice system based on Common Law to protect us.
Mary Ann

If Farage doesn’t lead the out campaign it will be the death of ukip, it will make him look weak and he has always tried to project the image of a strong leader. I see that now he has gone of on his hols. What happens next?
Isage000

This is just ridiculous. There just is no-one else in politics today that even comes close to the strength, ability, wit, will and persona to front the eurosceptic campaign. Even if there was a latter-day Tebbit on the backbenches able to step up to the plate, and despite some meritorious individuals like Jacob Rees-Mogg, none with anything like the necessary anti-establishment credentials charisma and ability to command the public’s attention in their sincerity and trust.
Nicholas_Keen

A strong case must be made by business leaders, politicians, intellectuals, educators from across the spectrum. People will need convincing that the UK can go it alone, that it won’t lose access to the markets it needs, that they will keep their jobs. That case has not yet been convincingly made. No-one on either side will benefit from a messy divorce, but emotions will be running high in the event of vote to exit. And making an example of Britain to discourage the others will appeal to many on the continent.

An entertaining debate or two will, well, entertain, but it will not win the referendum any more than it would win an election. My sympathies are with the outers, but I’m far from sold. I’m not sure that the out argument has the intellectual and pragmatic firepower to win.

But, events, dear boy, events…..
- Mary Ann
  
  It would be far more sensible to make the case to stay in, we do not appreciate how valuable freedom of movement is for us. The borders of countries are artificial boundaries put there by the ruling classes and the EU has given us back our freedom to live where we choose,
  - Marie1797
    
    But you could live where you chose before, albeit with the right documents and visas and rightly so. There needs to be proper border controls.
    - Mary Ann
      
      But you have to apply and have your application either accepted or rejected by a civil servant who doesn’t know anything about you and doesn’t care, If you want to live their you have to apply for work permits, which can be refused, you have to pay for private health care, the ruling classes are controlling you, with the EU we have the freedom to get on a ferry or a plane and go to any part of the EU that we choose to go to, we are entitled to the same health care as the locals and we can get a job without having to ask permission from the government. It’s a much better system, and we don’t have to kowtow. I don’t understand why so many people are frightened about immigration from Europe, It’s about 2 million in and 2 million out, it may be more in at the moment but after an ‘in’ vote in the referendum there will be more people happy to retire or take their families to live and work in Europe again, it would be foolish for all but the very well off to move there at the moment.
      - Marie1797
        
        In that case why do we bother having a ruling class? Why bother having any rules at all? Let’s just do as we please eh?
        
        In case you hadn’t noticed it’s been more in and less out for decades. It’s been low skilled poverty stricken third world immigrants that come via Europe as well as directly from non EU countries. It’s not a better system at all and people are not frightened about immigration they are pissed off that their jobs are being taken, their standard of living is going down and we are being inundated by terrorists and people with strange diseases seeking free healthcare. The free movement of people is dangerous. Europe too is being swamped by many third world cultures, it’s no fun living in Spain or France either and they have difficult and complex property laws to contend with. I think you’ll find a lot of retires come back to Britain after a while. I’d rather live in an orderely society.
      - Mary Ann
        
        Once the threat of leaving the EU has been lifted there will be a lot more people retiring to their place in the sun and families moving to Europe to improve their lives.
      - Marie1797
        
        They could still go and live in another European country if we left the EU.
  - Nicholas_Keen
    
    Back to the golden age, huh?
Marie1797

I disagree. His tone is confident, authoritative, firm and decisive, he’s the ideal one to lead the group. Anyway, you don’t seriously think a man who has campaigned and worked so hard for 20 years for a referendum and to get Britain out of the stranglehold of the EU will stand aside and meekly follow a bunch of Tories who claim to be Euro-sceptics? I bet half of them would vote to stay in the EU when the actual vote came up. Look at Bill Cash and Ian Duncan-Smith both outwardly euro-sceptics but voted for membership of the EU in the end. With Nigel you know what you are getting, he is an MEP and knows all about that corrupt institution, the Tory back bench so called euro-sceptics could learn a few things from him s could we all.
A Sensitive Scholar

When UKIP first broke through in 2012, Nigel Farage was widely loved and the party was liked by many and hated by few. Over the last three years the entire press – including supposedly right-wing rags like the Telegraph, the Mail, and the Spectator – have worked night and day to turn the public against the party and, across many parts of the public, they have been successful. To then turn around and try to exclude Farage from the Out campaign because he is ‘toxic’, as though it is an immutable fact of nature rather than a wound knowingly caused, is absolutely reprehensible.

No doubt once they’ve got their pound of flesh regarding the Out campaign leadership, the pseudo-Eurosceptic press and the pseudo-Eurosceptic Tory MPs will have a last minute conversion and campaign to stay in on Cameron’s incredible and miraculous “renegotation” anyway.
- REPman20260
  
  Exactly that and they will reap what they have sown.
gerronwithit

I think you will find that the conveniently post election released immigration figures would suggest that the country very much needs the services of Nigel Farage if we are to exist as an identifiable race within the next generation. The orchestrated manoeuvres of the MSM, the BBC and Westminster to deny the evidence of our own eyes by howling propaganda at us on the ‘benefits’ of the EU and immigration mean we very much do need a Mr Farage to singularly lead us once again against the total and final contamination of our society. Hopefully, they cannot fool all of the people all of the time. After all, the people did for Red Ed and Labour so let’s take out the smugness of the Conservatives at the Referendum.
Sapporo

Errr…. what Tory EUsceptics? Less than 10 will defy EU-phile Cameron.
woohoo002

So instead of Farage we can expect a fake eurosceptic like Dan Hannan or Richard North, who with all the FUD they peddle, would make it seem almost impossible to leave.
- EeeYepBlowing Whistles
  
  There are many dirty tricks afoot at present. One thing to note is of the audacity of Labour who ‘refused’ (along with the LibDems) to allow the British people any say on the in/out referendum – who now backpeddle and agree that there should be an in/out referendum …
  
  Will there be a fair, unbiased and impartial offering up of information to the British people in the lead up to the in/out Referendum?
  
  Keep going Sir; i do believe there are many 2 faced-turncoat journo’s, hacks and bloggers out there who’s real agendas are becoming rather exposed. i aint ever been behind one particular one – on the contrary been leaps and bounds ahead and in front of ‘im.
yaosxx

Oh do shut up Mr Wheeler! As Nigel Farage has said, he has the support of far bigger donors than Mr Wheeler and if he now feels he would prefer to offer his pounds to the “eurosceptic-lite” of the Tory party then be our guest!
UKIP has got where it has by Nigel doing his thing and if all of sudden Mr Wheeler feels this is some kind of “liability, I suggest Mr Wheeler carries on doing what he nust have been doing up until now – sitting in the corner, fast asleep!
Brian K

we also need the Labour eurospectics.

Nigel needs to go on a 3 or 4 year holiday.
EppingBlogger

Have you met some of the so-called Eurosceptic Tory MEPs (and MPs!) – they need to keep well away from the media during any referendum campaign. There needs to be a serious search for the right people to front the debate but Nigel needs to be there too.
TNL

If the No campaign want to win the EU referendum then Farage is not the person to lead it. Yes, he has taken UKIP to their best result in the polls and has managed to score just shy of 4 million voters. But in doing so he has become a deeply divisive figure, who has used poisonous rhetoric to get his party to where it is today. To his followers he is amazing; to those that hate him he is a figure of revulsions; and to the majority he probably has his worst fate – he’s a joke. I don’t know who the right person is, but a different person need to run the campaign against the EU in the referendum if that campaign actually wants to win.
- Mary Ann
  
  Without the anti-foreigner vote the ‘out’ vote will never win.
  - TNL
    
    Yep. But it needs a lot more than just that to win as well.
FrankS2

The Out campaign should be free from all party political baggage. It must not be seen as UKIP’s, or still worse, Nigel Farage’s campaign. You can be sure that the “in” campaign will continue to depict and “out” vote as a vote for Nigel.
- Mary Ann
  
  Well it will be nothing short of the truth.
  - FrankS2
    
    To a lot of people who want to leave the EU, Farage is a loathsome buffoon. Their ‘out’ vote will not to be a vote for UKIP.
sylvesterthecat

Whatever, If someone other than Farage runs the ‘no’ campaign and fails to get an ‘out’ result, you can be sure Farage will certainly be running the 2020 UKIP election campaign.
( You don’t think the coming referendum is going to decide anything do you?)
- Mary Ann
  
  How can the leader of ukip not run the out campaign anyone else doing it would just be silly, of course it will put some people voting no, but then if Farage hadn’t made some of his silly comments blaming migrants for everything he wouldn’t be in this mess now, still it did increase his support.
- Mary Ann
  
  So that’s why Farage doesn’t want to run it, he knows the people will vote to stay and if someone else runs it he can blame them. He doesn’t want to loose yet again.
Bogbrush

Nigel is brilliant, an star of the political landscape. But he’s a divisive star.
We need 51%. I hope he has a profile but please God it must be supportive to a broader campaign and available tactically (if not tactfully).
- Mary Ann
  
  How can he be brilliant if he is divisive, an oxymoron.
  - Bogbrush
    
    Absolutely not an oxymoron! Many brilliant people divide opinion strongly, it often goes with the territory.
    - Mary Ann
      
      Many more people dislike him than those who like him, for a man who needs to be popular to get elected it is not a good qualification, just think, he had the choice of every seat in the country bar one and still he couldn’t win the largest share of the vote.
      - Bogbrush
        
        Wherever he stood he knew he’d have the resources of the biggest parties against him.
        
        He’s single-handedly changed the political environment, more than any of his contemporaries can claim. I think that’s deserving of great respect.
        
        And don’t forget, they all have more vote against them than for.
Adetoz

Who is asking for a face for the out campaign? We don’t need a face. We need a united front consisting of people from all race, colour and creed who beleive the that British self-governance is better than been ruled by unelected beaurocrat from Brussels.

This talk about a “face” for the out campaign is a massive side distraction and we must repel it. All voices from all political spectrum against EU federalisation must speak. We are a diverse group of people (the Outters) so why should we be represented by one person or a face?…absolute collectivist nonsense.
- Mary Ann
  
  The unelected bureaucrats you mean the Commissioner chosen by the largest group in the EU parliament, with his members chosen by the leaders of the EU countries, Cameron could have stopped it but our Prime Minister took the Tories out of the largest group, it was his decision and more people voted Tory than any other party, isn’t that called democracy. Democracy doesn’t always choose the leader you want, I didn’t vote for Cameron in 2010, did you? The EU is far more democratic than the right wing press would have you believe.
  - Adetoz
    
    I voted for Cameron in 2010 actually. I was in my 2nd year at University of Birmingham. I am a first generation Nigerian immigrant also. The EU is all about federalisation and do it through the back door.
    - Mary Ann
      
      The yes leaflet in the previous referendum talked about closer union, I voted for that then and I would vote for it again, don’t let people tell you that we only voted for a trade group, if that is what they think then they didn’t read the information issued by the government, you would have thought that voting on such an important issue that people would take the trouble to read the information which was sent to every household in the land.
    - Johnny Foreigner
      
      So, which way are you going to vote?
  - Johnny Foreigner
    
    The EU is democratic? What?
Andrew Morton

There’s no way you can win a referendum if the Establishment don’t want you to. Don’t forget they control the BBC, hence the news agenda.
- Notrut .
  
  Correct, and Murdoch’s Sky is Cameron’s tool too.
  And Channel4 is the Left’s propaganda outlet.
bugalugs2

What does it say about how reliable Tory EUsceptics are in fighting to regain our sovereignty that they would rather walk away from the fight in a sulk than be part of a campaign led by Farage.

The obvious question is of course, if not Farage, who?

One of the Tories who has been ineffective for over 20 years as supposed EU sceptics, and will sell out if Cameron offers a plum job?
Scaroth

Stuart Wheeler is right. EU quitters need to understand that, notwithstanding Nigel Farage’s success in enabling this referendum to happen, he may not be the best candidate for leading the Brexit campaign.

As recently as 2012, David Cameron was fundamentally opposed to allowing the people a say on our relationship with the EU. We all know that; indeed, Cameron imposed a three line whip on his party against any such democratic outrage ever being permitted to happen in October 2011.

For Cameron’s subsequent U-turn on Europe, we have Nigel Farage above anyone to thank. Getting the referendum on to the Conservative agenda has been his great triumph, and vindication of the battle he has fought since resigning from party over the Maastricht Treaty, a battle that he won, and for which we need to be eternally grateful. James Goldsmith deserves a mention, too.

But – and it’s a big but – we are in a bigger ballpark now. I suspect this is where the likes of Lord Tebbit, Dan Hannan, Owen Patterson, and other asserted big beasts, can link up with Douglas Carswell, Suzanne Evans, Steven Woolfe. Let’s not forget our eurosceptic soulmates in the Labour Party too, like Frank Field, like Kate Hoey, like Gisela Stuart. All have a contribution to make in the coming year. And I’ve not even mentioned the business world, or academia, or the likes of Christopher Booker in the press.

In short, no longer can leaving the EU be regarded as indistinguishable from the Nigel Farage Show. Face it: this isn’t a fight that UKIP as a party can win alone – and I speak as one who just voted for them. But the party only covered 1 in 8 of the electorate as a whole. Before that, in the last European elections, they managed 27%, and that under PR. This kind of result is simply not good enough for a binary poll: we will now need 50% plus. Farage is too divisive a figure for that role.

Based on the hard evidence, Nigel Farage – and UKIP – do not have sufficient
pulling power to take us out of the EU and therefore should not be tasked with the duty of leading the campaign.

Let’s not forget what this is ultimately about. Leaving the EU. Not Nigel Farage.
James_MD

The problem is not Farage at this point in time. The problem is that Tories are too united behind Cameron’s Wilsonian fudge, most of them sitting on their fat a**es with a “wait and see” approach when they should unequivocally be for Brexit. Note that the EEA is separate from the EU. Either you are in or out of a political union (EU), and Tories should unequivocally be for out, which does not preclude participation in a common market (EEA). Therefore, to reiterate the problem is not Farage, it is spineless do-nothings, particularly pretend eurosceptics such as Redwood, Hannan, and Paterson.

Tories, you know very well that Cameron is going to try his best to stay in the EU. Speak out against his transparent tactics and show that you genuinely want Brexit. You can’t be half-pregnant. When there is clarity as to where you stand then we can unite.
kinetiq

Nigel Farage leads UKIP, we haven’t suddenly become a “community” where some self appointed Imam or Rev decides he speaks for all….Nigel is the only reason it is on the table and has done great, but it seems the Pols and MSM are under the impression we are all Labour voting sheep.
Trojan

Keep it up, attack Farage and UKIP from left and right. Cameron is going to renege on the EU referendum, if only by skewing the words on the vote. This Tory intake don’t have a spine between them, so voters who want out might turn to UKIP. So all pull together, from the Tory Right to Cameron’s street thugs in the UAF – smash UKIP.
- Jen The Blue
  
  Trojan you are so right. We will get a referendum. It will not be remotely fair.
  - Jen The Blue
    
    Having re-read your post….I am ot sure which side you are on?
EeeYepBlowing Whistles

Slowly slowly catchee monkeys!
EeeYepBlowing Whistles

Tory Eurosceptics have alienated themselves – they need to man up.
Are You Sure

Farage is too full of his own self importance to listen to the sensible advice of others. Like Stuart Wheeler I fear it will cost us the referendum.
- Bluebottle
  
  Let’s hop so
Bonce

It really does not matter who leads the OUT campaign. The OUT campaign has not got a cats in hells chance of winning. When you have whole media, 95% of the MP’s, 95% of business and the snake oils salesman in charge of the IN campaign in Cameron, the OUT campaign will be defeated and defeated clearly. I want OUT of the EU, but I know the political landscape needs to change for that to happen, we need more UKIP MP’s and we need more years of European Union and Euro misery before a case to leave will be voted for and supported. I am sure that a second referendum in 15-20 years is winnable, this referendum is not winnable.
- EeeYepBlowing Whistles
  
  Stop being a ‘surrender monkey’.
WTF

Its highly likely that Camerons bacon was saved purely due to the paranoia over Labour getting in due to UKIP taking their votes but it could have sent a strong message to Cameron of what to do next regarding the EU

Unencumbered by the wet liberals & their chief EU pimp perhaps Dave can surprise us and show he has some b**** after-all and draw clear lines over what we require from the EU. There shouldn’t be any woolly negotiations with Junker or Brussels just a simple take it or leave it list of changes written in stone that can then be put before the UK electorate for an in/out referendum. Put the ball in their court and make them come up with offers with a 1 year timescale.
Andy M

At the end of the day, those who want out of Europe but played their part in the smearing of Farage over the course of the last GE build up only have themselves to blame for the situation now, where any negative opinion of Farage which will consequently effect the campaign is a direct result of unprofessional journalism and smear.

That said, I think the worry over losing votes by him being the spokesman is misplaced concern. This is because the types of people who want to stay in the EU are precisely the types who had already made their mind up on Farage long before they had heard any policies come out of his mouth. They were never going to vote for ‘opting out’ of the EU and won’t change their mind whether Farage is spokesman or not.

Anyone who hasn’t made their mind up are in theory open minded on what Farage has been saying, and seeing it was him who brought this issue to our attention, it is only sensible that he is the one who is the spokesman. We shouldn’t forget that we wouldn’t even have this referendum if it wasn’t for enough people listening to what he had to say and then airing their concerns on the doorstep when canvassed by local MPs. They did listen to him and there’s nothing to say they won’t keep listening.
- Bluebottle
  
  “it was him who brought this issue to our attention”…it’s that kind of misguided guff that guarantees an overall ‘in’ vote.
  - Andy M
    
    It’s the clear and obvious truth. If you are that ignorant of the build up to UKIP’s entering the crosshairs of the mainstream media, then you are even more of a joke than I first thought.
LittleRedRidingHood

So where do all in favour of brexit go to register their support?
I’ve only found
http://getbritainout.org/
So far, which is a start but we need an organised professional and robust campaign.
Who is stepping up?
I’d suggest registering there until it becomes clear.
LittleRedRidingHood

This is the most important decision in my lifetime. We have the get it right for the sake of our future generations.
Where is the focal point for brexit. Who is making the rallying call.
We need to make sure the out campaign is strong and unwavering.
Old Boss,New Boss, Meh!

The Tories have just broken their first electoral pledge.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/05/27/comprehensive-david-cameron-u-turn-on-human-rights-pledge/

Do you think I’ll trust a Tory over this Referendum?
Raddiy

Most of the ‘eurosceptics’ and I use that term with a large pinch of salt considering they have been as effective as a chocolate poker in defending our rights since 1973, have practically to a man and women time and time again surrendered on matters EU, or using their form of words came to a pragmatic compromise.

Even Sir William Cash the Eurosceptic in Chief in the Conservative Party, knighted for his services to fake euroscepticism, betrayed his principles when he was one of those who led the campaign against Maastricht, and then went through the government lobbies and voted for the treaty.

Most of those in the out campaign will roll over to have their tummy tickled when Cameron comes a calling for an IN vote without gaining any concessions worth a jot. I wouldn’t trust any of them to act in our interests, and it is laughable to even suggest they could run an OUT campaign. If they were in any way effective campaigners on the issue, where have they been for the last 42 years,. Why did it take the rise of UKIP and the drive by NIgel Farage to force Cameron to concede a referendum, he was forced to concede it less than 12 months after he whipped a vote against one through the HoC.

The only person who can be trusted to lead the OUT campaign is NIgel Farage, and he will lead it either formally or informally, because the people and the media will be focused on what he says, I have no doubt the Lib/Lab/Con Boo’ers will attempt to marginalise him anyway, it will be a lot easier for them to surrender to Cameron’s ‘negotiation success’, if he is not involved.

UKIP will conduct its own OUT campaign, and we know who the people trust to tell the truth about the EU. UKIP will be blamed by the bubble if the people vote out claiming it was our scaremongering, and we will be blamed if they vote in, guess why!!….Yep it will be our ‘scaremongering’ again.

Are we bothered!!!
WarriorPrincess111111

How about the Conservative strategy employed against UKIP in the last election – I quote
“Tory high command was determined to see off Mr Farage and the threat of Ukip, which was siphoning off votes and eurosceptic MPs. “If you want to win the Vietnam war, you don’t just bomb the paddy fields, you kill Ho Chi Minh,” says a Tory strategist.”
Boy! Nigel really worries them – doesn’t he?
Bollinger Bolshevik

Whatever “concessions” Cameron ‘wins’ from the EU will be overturned within a few years anyway under the guise of some new treaty/agreement/competence. What reforms did we get in exchange for the loss of the UK Rebate? A vague promise to look at the whole CAP in 2020. Better of Out.
Rob74Eroticus

Farage leads the third most popular party in the country. Tell me of somebody else better to lead and I will listen. Until then, stop being part of the problem.
BigMach

Steven Wheeler is right. My daughter and her graduate friends, 3 in the City, have been won round to the anti-EU cause, although somewhat tenuously. They could not hear what Nigel was saying during the election because things that he did say repulsed them. They believe that immigration should be controlled and that it cannot be done if we are in the EU but they did not hear that from Nigel. Singling out Romanians, HIV sufferers and people on the train who did not speak his language turned people against his cause.

In the upcoming referendum campaign we need a cross party alliance of people with a plan for when we vote no . Flexcit is the best I have heard up to now.
Linda Hudson

Only Nigel Farage, and the people of U.K.I.P. are the deadly weapon against U.K. becoming a satellite state of the Federalist E.U. superstate, and to have another leader for U.K.I.P. at this crucial point of time, would delight those that are pro E.U., no matter what!
When all is said and done, when the referendum comes along, those euro sceptics of LIB, LAB, CON, will be compelled to vote Yes to stay in the E.U.!

Nigel Farage cannot lead the Out campaign

If he does, he will alienate Tory Eurosceptics

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Nigel Farage cannot lead the Out campaign

If he does, he will alienate Tory Eurosceptics

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