Euroscepticism is growing all over Europe

Europhiles may find that ever-looser union is the only future for the EU

3 October 2015

9:00 AM

3 October 2015

9:00 AM

Europhiles have warned us for years of the dangers of Britain leaving the EU. But all the while a different spectre has crept up on their other flank: which is that even if the UK votes to stay in the EU in 2017, we might be one of the only countries left. It’s a radical thought, but if they’d like to consider it, the Europhiles should look at what is happening across the continent.

Pro-EU countries are proving harder and harder to find. The eastern European countries may still be financial net receivers, but they are now having to weigh up their honey pot against the demands that come with it. A project which was meant to bring free movement of labour for themselves is now forcing them to take in thousands of migrants they do not want from across Africa and the Middle East. Anti-EU feeling is growing everywhere, and even the Polish government’s erstwhile plan to ‘progress’ into the eurozone now looks like it will be opposed by the majority of Poles. The ‘irreversible’ turns out to be eminently reversible.

In western Europe, the Euroscepticism that used to be portrayed as a mere embarrassing blight among Tory backbenchers is now breaking out everywhere. Ten years ago Dutch voters rejected the EU constitution, but were soon afterwards signed up for the almost identical Lisbon Treaty. Ten years on, campaigners in Holland have succeeded in collecting far more than the 300,000 signatures they needed to force a Dutch vote on further EU enlargement. One of the authors of that initiative, the Dutch writer and philosopher Thierry Baudet, this week announced that he wants to turn the vote into a debate on Dutch EU membership as a whole.

Public opinion in Holland appears to be gathering behind him. A new poll shows 83 per cent of Dutch voters want ‘more influence’ over future transfers of power to the EU and 61 per cent of the population want a referendum on any further enlargement of the EU. At the same time Baudet and the anti-EU Forum for Democracy which he runs intend to push for a full public inquiry into the circumstances under which Holland joined the euro. In Holland such inquiries tend to be reserved for national disasters. The symbolism is not lost and the inevitable troubles of the Dutch political class, as their manipulations are brought to light, can push public feeling in only one direction.

Everywhere a process of ‘ever-looser union’ may become the only way to hold the EU together. On 3 December it will be Denmark’s turn to go to the polls for a referendum on whether to convert one of the country’s current EU opt-outs into an opt-in. But anti-EU sentiment in Denmark has grown (as it has everywhere else) among citizens watching the EU’s handling of the Greek crisis and now beginning to experience the catastrophically mishandled migration crisis.

All the while, those countries which decided not to join the EU seem to be realising just what a near miss they had. Both of Norway’s referendums on EU membership (in 1972 and 1974) were lost by small percentages, with the number of Norwegians in favour or opposed to joining on both occasions around the 50 per cent mark. Today polls of Norwegians find those keen on EU membership dwindling in the 20 per cents. It is hardly surprising that the EU looks like an ever less attractive club to join. What, after all, is the appeal of joining a club into which the entire world can apparently move?

For years Iceland has had a request pending to join the Union. But earlier this year the country quietly let that application lapse. Its citizens can all see for themselves one of the differences between being in the EU or being outside it. Iceland had a severe financial crisis over the last decade, like Greece. But unlike Greece the Icelandic people had a sovereign parliament and control of their own currency. They found out that after such a calamity it took a couple of years to get level again, but they were able to do what they needed to do and today Iceland is back on its feet. Why would they not see their interests as being better served outside the EU?

Even in the heart of the EU — in the countries that seem to have the institution in their bloodstream — opposition to the whole enterprise is growing. Angela Merkel’s personal popularity has begun to slump even in her own party, and Germany’s Eurosceptic parties are now polling better than they have ever done before. In France it is not only Marine Le Pen who is making noises which might disconcert Brussels. Last year the former president and future presidential contender Nicolas Sarkozy warned that unless half of the EU’s current competencies were returned to member states, the whole EU project would risk imploding.

What must alarm anyone who wants to retain the status quo is that it will only require one country to start stepping back from their current arrangements to set off a cascade of similar efforts across the EU. In Ireland major business leaders are now publicly saying that if the UK decides to leave in 2017, then Ireland should think of stepping out too. The EU’s fiscal crisis has been taken over by a political one, and now across the entire continent the old, legitimate borders are reasserting themselves.

So instead of another two years of trying to terrify British voters into thinking we are the odd men out of Europe, perhaps the Europhiles should consider the possibility that a ‘Yes’ vote in 2017 will in fact make us the odd men in.

eu1The Spectator is hosting an evening discussion ‘Is the EU bad for business?’ at 7pm on Tuesday 20 October at The Royal College of Surgeons, WC2. Speakers include: Dominic Cummings, director of the ‘No’ campaign and Will Straw, executive director of the ‘Yes to Europe’ campaign and is chaired by Andrew Neil. For tickets and further information, click here.

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  • Tamerlane

    Is this a trend or a fluctuation? The Dutch don’t actually want out, they just want a little more control. I don’t see a mass exodus from the EU and I don’t see the EU-meisters offering anything other than greater integration as the way forward. At least the gloves are off these days and the EU has stopped pretending it isn’t trying to create a federal social-democratic state. From that, God willing, Britain may just have the courage to walk away.

    • blandings

      We live in tumultuous times and I wouldn’t care to guess what happens next.

    • marco

      I disagree, most of the Dutch people want out of the EU in it’s current state. The Dutch are pro Europe but against the EU(political).

      • Greychatter

        “In Europe but not controlled by Europe” – David Cameron before the 2010 election. Most people would agree.

        • Vera

          Geographically we are in Europe – we don’t need Germans and Belgians pushing us around.

          • somewhereinthesouth

            Arguably the British isles is an archipelago located near to the mainland of the Continent of Europe – so due to the sea our geography is no so clear cut.

        • Lady Magdalene

          It should, of course be “In Europe but not controlled by the EU.”

    • Greychatter

      Talking to friends while in Holland a few weeks ago, they are willing Britain to to LEAVE and bring the whole corrupt EU down.

      • Lady Magdalene

        Let’s make sure we don’t disappoint.

  • Gilbert White

    World government run by the likes of Merkel and Junker, imagine no possessions?

    • stuartMilan

      indeed. not that that thought’s ever likely occur to those two

    • WFC

      For some Germans, it seems to be “imagine no home to return to”.

    • Shazza

      I believe that Nigel Farage has said that Junker is doing to the EU what Tony Blair did to the UK.

      Invite vast numbers of moslem/3rd world immigrants to shore up their voter base.

      All, it seems, is going to plan.

  • AlbertaProud

    In Canada we used to have lots of discussion around joining the EU at some level or other. It always stopped short of adopting the Euro but we discussed free movement of labour, free trade and so on. Such talk has ended altogether, in favor of more arm’s-length agreements like the recent CETA. Of course, that agreement is with the EU, so it’s void with any states that secede.

  • David Mortimer

    Can the EU parliament be held to account by UK citizen’s?

    • twinscrew


  • Johnny Foreigner

    What is the point of an arms length relationship, you will still be in the EU, which means down the line at some point, the general public mongs, will vote in another Blair or Heath at some point. They will then drag the country back again into the hell hole of tyranny. We gotta get out.

    • Vera

      No half measures – OUT. Then we are free to negotiate.

  • William_Brown

    Like many people, (I would guess), I enjoy working and holidaying in Europe, I enjoy visiting France, Germany, Holland, Sweden etc., on both a business and leisure basis. So yes, I would call myself ‘pro European’ from that point of view and I consider myself firstly English, then British, then European.

    However, I’m not pro E.U., it’s just not a democratic instrument in my opinion and seems to be bogged down with its own utopian dogma, which cripples both flexibility and pragmatism at the same time. No, the sooner it dissolves, the better. This too is an attitude which seems to be growing amongst my European friends and business associates of late.

    There’s no shame in admitting that the experiment has failed, let’s just get on with it and move on, because the more we hang on to this unsuccessful adventure, the harder it will be to undo the damage it has already caused.

    • Vera

      Germany needs to pull it’s neck in and deal with it’s hunger for ever more territory, it’s in it’s blood, even round the swimming pool. Will they do that? I doubt it.

      • Hamburger

        Such nonsense does not even warrant a serious reply.

        • Vuil

          Wrong: Germany or the peoples living in what is now called Germany have for hundreds, if not thousands, of years caused trouble in Europe. Pushing, conquering, shoving, imposing. Come on man it was even the German tribes that sacked the Roman Empire.

          I think Europe and the world would be better without the Germans – fancy German cars notwithstanding – they are a curse on the planet.

          Allies should have forced all Germans to leave Germany and have the land occupied by more rational people. Now the Germans are trying to control Europe via the EU and shoring up their base with Muslims.

          The world would be better off without them. Not PC, of course, but the bloody truth.

          • Hamburger

            Oh dear.

          • Vuil

            There was an error. You did not complete the sentence and left it hanging. It should read…

            “Oh dear, I’ve seen the truth about the Krauts”

            There. Better now.

          • Hamburger

            The Anglo Saxons of course have nothing to do with Germany. Come to think of it, from where do you thing the Normans came? I fear you are more German than you would like to be.

          • somewhereinthesouth

            The Normans weren’t actually French apparently they were of Viking descent.

          • Hamburger

            Exactly, Denmark and Schleswig, in north Germany.

          • Vuil

            I am half German. I know whereof I speak.

          • Hamburger

            Perhaps you only know the half of it.

          • Vuil

            You can be as clever as you want: the fact remains Germany is screwing up Europe big time. Only someone with hamburger mush for a brain cannot see that.

          • Hamburger

            Europe is doing that well enough by itself. I agree, we are large part of that, our political competence is legendary.

          • ScaryBiscuits

            The Germans have a new ‘final solution’. This isn’t saying they have rediscovered Nazism but this new solution is nonetheless final. The white Christian German population is in collapse because they’re not having enough babies. Instead of trying to reverse this Merkel et al have decided it would be better to import people from the rest of the world, to replace Germans.
            Population changes are usually exponential with time. In 20 years, a quarter of Germans won’t be culturally German. Total replacement on the same trend would come later this century. You may get your wish, Vuil, but I doubt the non-European replacements will be much better.

          • serialluncher

            Even if they do still make great tanks, I’m pretty sure we beat the the Prussian/Nazi militaristic mentality out them a few generations ago. In fact we may have made them a bit too liberal.

          • Andrew Phillips

            Not sure what to make of the truth behind this comment but it’s good to rock the boat and push the boundaries of free speech lol

          • Vuil

            I provide truthful comments against the PC bulldust to assist metrosexuals to grow some balls……empower them (to use the PC jargon) to speak the truth not the saccharine pap of feel good.

            If there were no Germans many of the wars in Europe would not have taken place. See those tiny things between your legs are growing already. Come on. You can do it. You can grow a pair and face the truth. Your girlfriend (or man friend) will value the experience.

        • Vera

          Why bother then?

          • Hamburger

            I didn’t.

          • Vera

            My point proved, again.

        • Peter Parker


        • AtMyDeskToday

          A less serious one might be appropriate…like, she’s a complete idiot.

    • LittleRedRidingHood

      Your first paragraph suggests you were unable to visit those countries before the EU.
      We were able to function quite happily as a distinct independent entity. There is no reason why we couldn’t again.

      • William_Brown

        Perhaps you should read the whole comment.

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          I did. It is just that there is a perception being pushed by the remain brigade that leaving the EU means Europe is inaccessible. I was just pointing out that is false.

    • global city

      I love America, going there, meeting the people, reading about it’s history, feeling a genuine sense of shared roots.

      I do not like it’s government and would never consider being the 51st State. It is the same with Europe and the EU.

      • Phonetoholic

        I visited Liverpool once or twice to build a bright, shiny University gem there, you will know which one if you’ve ever been. Would I ever live there or call myself a Liverpudlian? No way.

        Do the same laws of the land apply in Liverpool that apply where I live. Yup.

        That’s that one shred to piece then innit lads.

        • global city

          In the weirdest way possible, you sort of confirmed my original point.

      • Phonetoholic

        I visited Liverpool once or twice to build a bright, shiny University gem there, you will know which one if you’ve ever been. Would I ever live there or call myself a Liverpudlian? No way.

        Do the same laws of the land apply in Liverpool that apply where I live. Yup.

        That’s that one shred to piece then innit lads.

    • EppingBlogger

      Check out sometime how much pro-EU propoganda is turned out by the Corporation of London. It is a local authority but it choses to promote the EU at every opportinuty.

      It regularly publishes pro-EU material and arranges and participates in blatantly biassed “debates” on EU issues. Only this wee the Corporatiion was part of a “debate” with Business for a New Europe (ie pro-integration), Business for Britain (which is trying to find a way to suport Cameron’s non-negotiation). No invitation had been issued to UKIP or to Leave.eu – the only campaigns actually in favour of leaving.

      It is tax payers’ money they are using.

    • Resnonverba59

      Democracy needs to be local. It’s demise started with Heaths’ destruction of Local Councils and his creation of the inefficient Metropolitan Councils.

    • greggf

      Western Europe United, 7 origilinally WEU, member states, was an objective of the 1954 and end of WW2 should the Cold War war persist. But it’s relative wealth looked to its neighbours as an associate advantage compared to the Cold War members.. Thus the EEW began; which like all those avirousness bureaucrats begin. Develop of life of their own to our deficit
      And when offered their “Danegeld” – which looks like being “help” but in fact soon becomes socialism and reminds voters that being bribed with their money own – again!
      It’s the demise of ownership and their end of democracy.

    • Andy M

      You’re quite right and I feel exactly the same way. The trouble with a lot of pro-EU activists, is that they immediately assume anyone who feels the EU is a failure are all right wingers who are xenophobic, etc. which is as far from the truth as it gets. I am not sure they make this assumption out of genuine ignorance, or out of disingenuousness to support their agenda. Either way, it’s not a good look. When will they learn, we can be part of Europe without being part of the bureaucratic machine that is the current state of the EU. I’d personally like to see it completely overhauled and improved rather than cease to exist, but that’s just because I work in Europe so would have problems caused for me in terms of red tape if we left.

      • Cyril Sneer

        “The trouble with a lot of pro-EU activists, is that they immediately
        assume anyone who feels the EU is a failure are all right wingers who
        are xenophobic, etc. which is as far from the truth as it gets. I am not
        sure they make this assumption out of genuine ignorance, or out of
        disingenuousness to support their agenda.”

        Very much a standard lefty tactic.

  • Hengist

    Presumably any negative voting results will be subject to the customary press blackout. Rapidly followed by a large re-education programme so the public can return the correct answer in a follow up vote, having now understood the benefits that Europe continues to derive courtesy of the effective EU management team!

    • William_Brown

      You’re probably right, but I genuinely believe that the end of the E.U. is now an inevitability. It’s just a matter of how and when. The danger is that the longer its death throws are drawn out, the more damage will be done to the countries involved – now is not the time to disadvantage the wests economies, its cultural depths, assets and resources.

      • Hengist

        I agree. The death of the beast that the EU has become will unfortunately take many innocent victims with it!

      • Wasp

        It seems the EU is beginning to follow other historical precedents. As far as I am aware, all artificially created ‘nation states’ have, at some point imploded, with the members of such states reverting to their historical, cultural and ancestral blood ties.

        The former USSR and Yugoslavia are relatively recent examples. Even the 300 year old, artificially created British nation state is in danger of disintegration with Scotland’s demands for independence, (and as an English nationalist, I say bring it on so England can have its 1000 year old right to nation status restored after it was abolished under the last Scots dominated Labour government).

        • Pedro

          I don’t know why you compare the EU to a ‘nation state’. If you do, you have to equally categorize the USA, in which case you have a counter-example.

          • John

            The Mexican land grab!

        • marco

          I would like to compare the EU to the clergy in the Middle Ages. Not busy with their religous task (read democratic tasks) but with enlarging their wealth. EU and it’s politicians are not so different. The EU (EEC) was a usefull institute until politicians took over.

    • Andrew Phillips

      That is the stuff of nightmares

  • WFC

    We’ve already seem more than one country unilaterally “stepping back from the current arrangements” in recent weeks: with both Greece and Germany tearing up the Dublin Convention: and then turning the PR furies on the country – Hungary – which tried to uphold it.

    • William_Brown

      Irony, much? – Spot on.

    • Gilbert White

      Truly astonishing achievement but even those highly trained journalists at the FT failed notice what you have noticed.

    • EnglandLaments

      What really astonished me was the way all the mainstream media across the Continent suddenly switched overnight to propagandising the “welcome” message.
      Scary and Orwellian stuff – even right of centre newspapers like the Telegraph joined in. As for the BBC and Sky News, the less said the better.
      The way it was all orchestrated was frightening.
      Thank God for Viktor Orban!

      • Vera

        EU has long tentacles.

        • Kieron Russell

          I though it was just the way it walked.

      • WFC

        Unfortunately the Guardianograph has been moving leftwards for some time now. Kate Day -aka “Fabian Solutions” – boasted about it shortly before she lost her job there.

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        Yes and now the populus rejected that premise it has disappeared as quickly from the media.
        Not one story from an embedded journo in the last week.

        Funny that eh?

        Alternatively, the crisis is over and no more migrants are coming……

      • Richard N

        As was the case when the US backed / organised the overthrow of the elected President of Ukraine in a coup, this sudden very visible near-universal pumping out of neoliberal, PC propaganda supporting Germany and the EU’s muslim flooding operation revealed the near total control of Europe’s media by Germany and the EU.

        We are now very near the same levels of control over the political content of virtually all media across Europe that the Soviet Union had over their media.

        If this near-total loss of the freedom of the press at the hands of the German / EU dictatorship, and their puppet national governments across Europe, is not reason enough to get out of this new USSR, then nothing is.

      • Cyril Sneer

        Just another reason added to the rapidly growing list of reasons why the British mainstream media can no longer be trusted.

  • Bonkim

    Spot on.

  • Richard Eldritch

    I love Douglas’ stuff.

  • rationality

    A corrupt club whose only purpose is to enrich themselves at the expense of the European people, the very people they are supposed to represent. As the world recognises the evil and corruption of the West, least of all its own citizens, we recognise now is the time for our 1989 take over. Merkel, Sarkozy and all the other corrupt fascists deserve the Ceauceascu treatment.

    • Pedro

      You’re funny,

  • MedJumper

    Is it any wonder. A power mad and Oman in Berlin says she wants cheap labour and were just expected to take it?

    • Hamburger

      Have you been listening properly?

  • Come on lads, get the Union Flag the right way up. 🙂

    • Bluesman_1

      To be fair, many believe the upside down display to to be a sign of distress. Attached to the EU ring-piece on the left (where else?) who would not be distressed?

      Article 50!

      • Yeah, Ok. That’s a fair point.
        I’m just so used to seeing it flown the wrong way it get’s my goat immediately.
        I still suspect they inverted the picture by mistake though. 🙂

        • twinscrew

          No I do not think they are that clever, you pre-empted my post which was in the same vein. I expect they still refer to it as the Union JACK.

        • Bluesman_1

          Again, to be fair, so do I 😉

          Article 50!

      • “EU ring-piece”. Hahahaha. I love it!

        • Tim Reed

          AKA The Star Spangled Sphincter.

    • twinscrew

      Well done, wish I could mess about with graphics like that.

    • Peter Parker
      • The picture above is correct. It’s the one that I posted here. The picture at the top of the page just below the headline is incorrect.

        • Peter Parker

          Gotcha. Good spot. Probably done on purpose.

  • Chalcedon

    Out! I joined the Leave EU group yesterday.

  • S. Nebb

    If you put it for a vote in Holland, I’d say the Dutch want out of this dictating type of Europe. They want peaceful cooperation. No central planning & central banking, No bail outs. Just working together.

    • Apekool

      You may be overestimating us Dutch… many people are very ill-informed on EU matters (thanks to the policor MSM).
      Combine this with an almost mortal fear of loss and change – just look at the kind of parties that span the political spectrum – and at the next elections the same newspeak uttering idiots are re-elected.

      • S. Nebb

        I am Dutch, yes they choose the wrong idiots (again and again). Sad story really. Hopefully people vote at least ‘no’ in a referendum.

  • Condelfan

    Latest poster

    The EU isn’t working

    with a shot of a winding line of multi-racial gimmigrants snaking up to a benefits office.

    Get us out of this EU shithole

  • Happyin Herts

    The ‘refugee’ stories have disappeared from the media. Have they stopped coming?

    • victoria linnell

      they wont stop they the press.areto scared to report. i hope and pray the eu dies out. out of this corrupt union.

    • Whichlips

      It’s become too difficult to cover the story without accusations of xenophobia.

    • Lady Magdalene

      No. But the populations of the EU countries proved to be immune to the constant propaganda that was being pushed at them about the “refugees” ….. always showing a young child …. when the vast majority weren’t Syrian and were young, single men.

      So now they’ve stopped reporting.

  • j33per

    Come the next elections in Germany, Angela will be toast! As will Rutte in the Netherlands. Good job!

    • Hamburger

      I am afraid not. The alternatives to Mutti are non existent.

      • Happyin Herts

        Agree. After 10 years she has seen off all credible opposition.

  • Harryagain
    • LittleRedRidingHood

      And so it starts. All you think you own you will lose.
      There’s gonna be a riot!
      Then the police state thugs will appear… The EU police force in waiting to stick the boot in.

      • Harryagain

        Well, I should think Merkel’s finished.

        There is massive rioting in Germany.

        I ‘spect we’ll get far right party in.

        A German fiend tells me very little is being reported in the mainline press/TV.

        All being hushed up ’til recently.

        The migrants are fighting amongst themselves.


  • John Partridge


  • John Partridge

    Europe does need something, a body where multiple european states can agree to co-operate with what each really wants to do. Ideally the EU could become that so we didn’t need to suffer a lot of grief by decoupling and starting again, but it won’t with stubborn, supra-nationalist guilt filled cretins at the helm. ‘We have a historical obligation: To protect by all means Europe’s unification proces.’

  • David

    The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic club to benefit Germany, at everyone else’s expense.
    It needs to be dismantled, preferably in an orderly way, but I doubt whether that is possible with the almost obsessional level of support for its continuation form the EU elites who are its major beneficiaries.
    We in the UK need to lead the way OUT !
    OUT NOW !

  • Rob74Eroticus

    Many people seem to be unaware of the fact that we are already associate members of the EU in all but name and the proposed referendum is not about our full integration into the EU but rather how far we can influence a power bloc that is developing on our borders.

    The Meister’s of the EU are ideologues following a doctrine that is trying to answer a question that was relevant seventy years ago. It isn’t relevant today and no matter how hard they try it will always be an answer to a long forgotten question and a mess of lies and contradictions. It can’t survive in it’s current form.

    Cameron’s negotiations will not change the minds of the ideologues but in the short term he should be ensuring our borders and immigration policy, guaranteeing the future of the City and shredding red tape.

    • victoria linnell

      so true but cameran is a traitor. and many despise him.merkals door mat. and arse wipe.

  • pobinr

    Imagine if we could renegotiate with the EU for us to become a sovereign self governed democratic nation in control its borders & territorial waters & fish stocks as we once were, but still retain the trade agreements so we would simply be in the Common Market we were told we were voting for in 1975.
    That would be the same as leaving the EU & setting up new trade agreements.
    Even the best regotiations wouldn’t come close to this.
    Right OK then that’s what we do then.
    Renegotiate. NO, not even possible & pointless
    Just leave !

    Our indepenance is what this Albert Griffiths fought for 70 years ago
    How sad we are know having to fight to get it back thanks to our own traitorous politicians.

    Some words from a Southampton resident on the UKIP May 2014 election leaflet :-

    “My Name is Albert Griffiths and I was born in 1924 in London. My father was injured in the first world war and had to have both legs amputated. He could not provide for all six children on his small pension, so I was adoptedby a family and moved to live with them in Romford, Essex when I was nine.

    At age 14 I was sent to a training farm where learned about looking after animals and crops. I also joined the Dagenham Sea Cadets. We were issued with old carbine rifles that had been used in the American Civil war!

    In 1942 I signed up for the Royal Navy as a trainee radio operator. I was assigned to HMS London and sailed on Arctic Convoy PQ20, taking essential supplies to northern Russia. The weather conditions were quite bad. I was later posted on the Wild Goose, which sank more German U boats than any other vessel. I took part in the Normandy landings, and that was a traumatic experience.
    I left the Navy in 1946, but continued to work in radio for many years.

    I support UKIP because I am fed up with the people’s voice not being heard and even now, in my senior years will strive for an independant self-governed country.”

  • Malcolm Marchesi

    I agree wholeheartedly with Douglas Murray’s view of the current situation in the EU but I also fear that our rulers and those in charge in Brussels are so complacent and so convinced of their own superior understanding of how things are that they will continue along the same way until something stops them .
    Unfortunately that something will probably be unpleasant for all of us and possibly even violent . If only our politicians spent as much time studying history as they do in listening to their own voices , many things would be much better !

    • hobspawn

      Cameron is quite good at history.

      • Malcolm Marchesi

        Yeah…. that’s right , he thought the Americans came over to help us in 1940 . You could argue that he wasn’t far out .

  • Terry lynch

    I can’t understand why we are allowing people into our country who HATE US even before they get here. They make no attempt at integration, and set up there own little areas where sharia law rules and they quickly become no go areas for British police. They gradually take control of s books and when they gain control they make Muslim the only religion taught and replace any of the staff who disagree. Then we have those that trap young girls and turn them into unpaid prostitutes because they have no respect for females. We should not allow them into our country even if it is just for the reason that they regard women as property who has no independent opinion and who should do as they’re told. Then we have the fact that over 70% of them are men. These are all potential Jihadists. Keep them out its safer.

    • Vuil

      There is no mystery. The elite in the UK and Europe are pursuing a covert ‘White Replacement Strategy’.

      Perhaps by accident, perhaps conspiratorially by design. It does not matter. The net result is that the stroppy whites are being removed through replacement. Of course, these elites may discover too late that their magnificent approach is going to backfire on them, but by then it will be too late. By then Europe will be Muslim.

      • PaD

        by design…read Coudenhove Kalergi….his masterplan is coming true

  • Ira Steiner

    Old “legitimate” Borders are reasserting themselves ? Which one’s are those…. The Iron curtain ? The Border between East and West Germany ? Or are they not the “legitimate” ones… and who says what is legitimate, and what is old. Maybe, we should go back a little further… are the Borders pre WW1 the legitimate ones ? Or even further back, the Border between Scotland and England ? What a ridiculous statement.

    • Whichlips

      The borders between each state or nation. That isn’t about where those borders were drawn before. How did you not get that?

  • rodger the dodger

    It’s over, referendum or not. We’ll be leaving along with everyone else when it collapses by ’24 at the latest.

  • Ian Stretch

    I want no part in the fourth reich.

  • Albert Zbingswiki

    The Honourable Mr Cameron would rather see us as a war torn, terminally ‘enriched’, largely beheaded kaliphate before he’d allow us to leave the EU.
    That appears to be his way of thinking, anyway. He certainly seems to be working overtime to make it a reality with the constant appeasement of the cursed, poisonous, cancer-like Religion Of Peace.

    • John

      Honourable? Many would choose more industrial language.

  • Allyup

    The EU elite are far to lofty to concern themselves with demands from the serfs as they have their wet dream of a heaven on earth where they are in charge of everything down to how you tie your shoelaces. The role of the serfs is merely to obey the orders of their betters as has been the case throughout history in Europe.

    Milton Friedman way back in 1997 predicted the Eurozone disaster giving reason why it would fail and the outcome https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/3colfn/greece_debt_crisis_milton_friedmans_1997/

    The ragbag collection of countries forming the EU are massively disparate. The EU is not the US driven by innovation where people moving to fill newly created opportunities.
    People move to other countries because massive pay differences mean the pitifully poor from Eastern Europe can displace better paid workers here making their lifestyle poorer i.e. fot negative not positive reasons.

    The reality is that the vast majority of serfs see themselves as Europeans last with allegiance to their country, customs and own language first. There is no political union down at serf level. Serfs exist purely to be sat on.
    See https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/marko-bucik/european-union%E2%80%99s-problem-is-substance-not-narrative

    It’s no use the elite kidding themselves there is political union throughout the EU except at their elite level because there is not. Imposing more sh*t on the serfs by the out of touch EU elite will merely drive increasing disaffection far more at the serf level which they are choosing to ignore.

    Stratfor reckon the EU could break up into four parts inside ten years http://uk.businessinsider.com/stratfor-has-11-chilling-predictions-for-what-the-world-will-look-like-a-decade-from-now-2015-6?op=1

  • JulianTheSceptic

    The acquis communataire ratchet in EU Law means that lost powers do not come back

    Ongoing integration (“ever closer union”) is an aim of the EU Treaty; binding in international law.

    The European Court of Justice has decided that member states are bound by this during treaty change; they are not actually free agents but agents of the EU.

    The European Commission states that the main goal of the EU is the progressive integration of member states’ economies and political systems. (The Court has ruled that goals are binding obligations, remember).

    There is no way that “ever looser union” will happen, even though there will be temporary failures to meet economic targets and temporary suspensions of movement (permitted).

    • somewhereinthesouth

      Unless of course there is massive treaty change. Not of course going to happen .

      • JulianTheSceptic

        EU Law acts as a ratchet against any meaningful treaty change, such as to allow powers to be brought back.

        ECJ Case 44/84 was decided in 1986, and confirms the commitment of EU member states to act in the interest of the EU and further integration. Former Commission President Barroso was therefore right in May when he said that future treaty changes had to be ‘compatible’ with European integration.

  • wattys123

    Europe will be a fully integrated Islamic state soon anyway – this article misses the point.

  • Greychatter

    My experience with our friends ( old business customers) in Holland is exactly as above, last there in July, discussing the EU they are waiting for Britain to vote to Leave and bring down the whole corrupt undemocratic mess. We want to be trading in Europe but managing our own affairs not controlled by a political elite.

  • sidor

    The history of attempts to build a Euroempire starts more than 2000 years ago. After the Roman Empire collapsed, the same idea was pursued by Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler. The EU is a new attempt, and it will collapse like all the earlier ones. Hopefully, this will happen without a major war.

  • somewhereinthesouth

    The EU is now showing its true and ugly clothes in its efforts to hold itself together as it fails to cope with the various [ self inflicted } problems from its ineffective foreign policy , migration/free movement policy and of course the truly awful the Euro . it is obvious that the organisation only “worked”, if thats what you can call it , in fair weather and when it was also bank rolled by growth and more importantly richer nations. Like the emperors new clothes it has been found wanting and it is becoming ever more unpopular and sclerotic . Cameron thinks he can get a few reforms and all will be well. However there is no guarantee that such reform [ even if it were achieved and was substantial ] would be maintained in perpetuity [ the EU has a nasty habit of doing the dirty on deals ] or that a future UK government would n’t negotiate them away or agree to some new policy – just as Blair did in a whim . Free trade with the EU is to be welcomed, but the rest of the EU dreadful baggage isn’t [ e.g. massive and rising cost of our contributions, the Common Agricultural policy , Financial regulations policies ,Common Fisheries policy , energy policy and so on ] and the only real and safe option is to get out. We can then decide how we wish to be governed , when and how to cooperate with our neighbours and have the freedom to negotiate our own trade deals with other countries . If this encourages others countries to leave e.g. ireland, Sweden, Denmark to do likewise so much the better.

  • “But all the while a different spectre has crept up on their other flank: which is that even if the UK votes to stay in the EU in 2017, we might be one of the only countries left. It’s a radical thought, but if they’d like to consider it, the Europhiles should look at what is happening across the continent.”

    Radical? Where has The Spectator been the last thirty-one years, 1984 being the publication year for The Spectator’s favorite book, ‘New Lies for Old’…


    …written by KGB defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn, whose many on-target predictions concerning the USSR and East Bloc fake liberalizations, informed the West that the EU would collapse and a new union replace it, a union from the ‘Atlantic to Vladivostok’…

    Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev and Soviet minister of foreign affairs Eduard Shevardnadze on the upcoming new European union with Russia:

    “Editor’s Note: The phrases ‘From the Atlantic to the Urals’, ‘From the Atlantic to Vladivostok’ and ‘From Vancouver to Vladivostok’ are interchangeable in the strategists’ lexicon. In the course of his Nobel Peace Prize Lecture, delivered in Oslo in June 1992, Gorbachev said: ‘Our [sic] vision of the European space from the Atlantic to the Urals is not that of a closed system. Since it includes the Soviet Union [sic], which reaches to the shores of the Pacific, it goes beyond nominal geographical boundaries’. Note that Gorbachev, who had been out of office for six months, referred to the Soviet Union, not Russia. In an interview on Moscow Television on 19 November 1991, Eduard Shevardnadze continued speaking as though he was still Soviet Foreign Minister: ‘I think that the idea of a Common European Home, the building of a united Europe, and I would like to underline today, of great Europe, the building of Great Europe, great, united Europe, from the Atlantic to the Urals, from the Atlantic to Vladivostok, including all our territory, most probably a European-Asian space, this project is inevitable. I am sure that we will come to building a united military space as well. To say more precisely: we will build a united Europe, whose security will be based on the principles of collective security. Precisely, collective security’. These statements by key implementers of the strategy reflect the central strategic objective of asserting ‘irreversible’ Russian/Soviet hegemony over Eurasia, thus establishing the primary geographical component of the intended World Government.” — ‘The Perestroika Deception’, by KGB defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn.


    …and here’s more on the upcoming “Atlantic to Vladivostok” union…


    …and here’s Vladimir Putin in 2012 (the year before the anti-Communist Ukraine emergency erupted—the eruption due to the weakened security situation, where a critical number of Ukraine Ground Forces were in Turkey preparing to enter Iraq—placing a hold on the EU collapse operation) pushing the new union with Europe…

    “Russia is an inalienable and organic part of Greater Europe and European civilization. Our citizens think of themselves as Europeans. We are by no means indifferent to developments in united Europe.

    That is why Russia proposes moving toward the creation of a common economic and human space from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean – a community referred by Russian experts to as “the Union of Europe,” which will strengthen Russia’s potential and position in its economic pivot toward the “new Asia.”‘


    When the new “Atlantic to Vladivostok” union materializes, Communist strategists will have achieved two goals, (1) the further isolation of the United States in the world; and (2) the disbanding of NATO.

    The following is a discovery I made in April regarding the fake collapse of the USSR, and what that fraudulent collapse proves about the institutions of the West…

    When Soviet citizens were liberated from up to 74 years of horrific Marxist oppression on December 26, 1991 there were ZERO celebrations throughout the USSR, proving (1) the ‘collapse’ of the USSR is a strategic ruse; and (2) the political parties of the West were already co-opted by Marxists,* otherwise the USSR (and East Bloc nations) couldn’t have gotten away with the ruse.

    ZERO celebrations, as the The Atlantic article inadvertently informs us…


    Notice, however, the Kremlin staged anti-government demonstrations that took place in Russia (and other Soviet republics) in the years immediately preceding the ‘collapse’, yet ZERO celebrations after the ‘collapse’!

    For more on this discovery see my blog…



    The West will form new political parties where candidates are vetted for Marxist ideology, the use of the polygraph to be an important tool for such vetting. Then the West can finally liberate the globe of vanguard Communism.


    * The failed socialist inspired and controlled pan-European revolutions that swept the continent in 1848(1) taught Marxists and socialists a powerful lesson, that lesson being they couldn’t win overtly,(2) so they adopted the tactic of infiltration of the West’s political parties/institutions. In the case of the United States…(continue reading at DNotice)…


    Now you know why not one political party in the West requested verification of the collapse of the USSR, and the media failed to alert your attention to this fact, including the ‘alternative’ media. When determining whether the ‘former’ USSR is complying with arms control treaties, what does the United States do to confirm compliance? Right, the United States sends into the ‘former’ USSR investigative teams to VERIFY compliance, yet when it’s the fate of the West that’s at stake should the collapse of the USSR be a ruse, what does the United States do to confirm the collapse? Nothing!

    The fraudulent ‘collapse’ of the USSR (and East Bloc) couldn’t have been pulled off until both political parties in the United States (and political parties elsewhere in the West) were co-opted by Marxists, which explains why verification of the ‘collapse’ was never undertaken by the West, such verification being (1) a natural administrative procedure (since the USSR wasn’t occupied by Western military forces); and (2) necessary for the survival of the West. Recall President Reagan’s favorite phrase, “Trust, but verify”.

    It gets worse–the ‘freed’ Soviets and West also never (1) de-Communized the Soviet Armed Forces of its Communist Party officer corps, which was 90% officered by Communist Party members; and (2) arrested/de-mobilized the 6-million vigilantes that assisted the Soviet Union’s Ministry of the Interior and police control the populations of the larger cities during the period of ‘Perestroika’ (1986-1991)!

    There can be no collapse of the USSR (or East Bloc nations) without…

    Verification, De-Communization and De-mobilization.

    The West never verified the collapse of the USSR because no collapse occurred, since if a real collapse had occurred the West would have verified it, since the survival of the West depends on verification. Conversely, this proves that the political parties of the West were co-opted by Marxists long before the fraudulent collapse of the USSR, since the survival of the West depends on verification.

    The above means that the so-called ‘War on Terror’ is an operation being carried out by the Marxist co-opted governments of the West in alliance with the USSR and other Communist nations, the purpose being to (1) destroy the prominence of the West in the eyes of the world, where the West is seen (i) invading nations without cause; (ii) causing chaos around the globe; and (iii) killing over one-million civilians and boasting of torture; (2) close off non-Russian supplies of oil for export, thereby increasing the price of oil, the higher price allowing oil exporting Russia to maintain economic stability while she modernizes and increases her military forces; (3) destroy the United States Armed Forces via the never-ending ‘War on Terror’; the ultimate purpose of the aforementioned to (4) bring about the demise of the United States in the world, opening up a political void to be filled by a new pan-national entity composed of Europe and Russia (replacing the European Union), a union ‘From the Atlantic to Vladivostok’; which will (5) see the end of NATO.

    Now you know how Bolshevik Russia survived in 1917; how the West ‘lost’ China to the Communists in 1949; why the Eisenhower administration turned a deaf ear to the anti-Communist Hungarian uprising in 1956; why the Eisenhower administration in 1959 was indifferent to the Castro brothers’ Communist fidelity, actually used the CIA to overthrow the Batista government; why the Nixon administration abandoned Taiwan for Communist China, and signed treaties/provided economic aid to the USSR; why the Nixon administration refused to tell the American People that over 50% of North Vietnamese NVA regiments were actually Chinese People’s Liberation Army soldiers (attired in NVA uniforms, and proving that the Sino/Soviet Split was a ruse, as KGB defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn told the West back in 1962), thereby (1) ensuring the Vietnam War would be lost; (2) destroying the prominence of the United States abroad and at home; (3) breeding distrust between the American people and their government; and (4) securing Communist victories in Southeast Asia. Working in the background within the political parties of the United States and Great Britain were Marxist agents doing their best to (1) ensure the survival of Communist nations when they popped up; and (2) sabotage any policies that would bring down a Communist nation. That’s why after the fake collapses of the East Bloc nations and USSR there was no mandatory Western verification process to ensure the Communists weren’t still in control.

  • Lady Magdalene

    The IN brigade always cite economic reasons to justify remaining in the EU. But there ARE no economic reasons: we don’t need to be in the EU to be in the Single Market. We don’t need to be in the Single Market to trade with the EU.

    The EU is a political union and the IN brigade want us in for political reasons: but they daren’t admit that. Because it would mean admitting that all the justifications they gave us for joining the EEC and converting the EEC into the EU without holding a Referendum to get a mandate was based on a tissue of lies.

    The British people have woken up to the fact that EU membership means our elected Government can’t change policies to the ones the British people want: the EU controls them.

    They now understand that the EU isn’t about “bent bananas and wine lakes”; it’s about imposing regulations and Diktats. It’s about over-riding our Parliament and continually demanding more and more money to pay for its crackpot schemes: the latest one being a demand for more money to pay for the migrant crisis IT helped create.

    It isn’t just the Dutch who have forced a Referendum; so has Austria. And with a bit of luck, Marine Le Pen will strongly challenge for the Presidency next year and will scare the living daylights out of the Kommissars.

    Support Leave.EU …… let’s get our country back.


    I’m so looking forward to the English voting to remove the whole UK from the EU, against the wishes of the people of NI, Wales & Scotland.

    Indyref2, and the resultant YES vote for Scottish independence will follow.

    Scotland is on the inevitable road to independence.

    • sidor

      The referendum has already happened. Did you miss it? Or you suggest to repeat the vote until the answer is right?


        Indyref1 changed Scotland, it cleared the path….. Indyref2 will be coming soon.

        • PasserBy

          No, it won’t, and even if it did, the result would be the same.

  • Cornelius Bonkers

    One key to a successful modern democracy is sovereignty over its mistakes, i.e., being able to PUT MATTERS RIGHT. We can no longer do this…

  • Mongo Part II

    There is a delicious irony seeing the East European nations moaning about free movement of people/immigration. Now the shoe is on the other foot, it’s not so great huh?

    in any case, Hungary and the other A8 countries willingly and eagerly signed up to the EU project, enticed by the benefits of free movement and such – did they not read the small print? If you willfully give your state powers away to a supranational overlord, there’s no point moaning about it now when the full realities become apparent. We (the UK people) never got that choice.

    I do admire Hungary for standing up to Merkel and the EU tyranny, but at the same time, you make your bed you lie on it….

  • PasserBy

    The fact is that all of the ‘benefits’ of the EU could be replicated by a free trade agreement, a free travel agreement and a defence pact. People cowering at Britain leaving by screeching how bad it will be for us are merely surrendering in a potential economic war before the first volley has been fired or loathe this country so much they would take any force trying to destroy it as an ally.

  • Why is the Union flag disrespectfully shown upsidedown in the image?

    • Mongo Part II

      it’s deliberate – it symbolises how our country has been turned upside down, distorted and violated by our union with the EU

      • “it symbolises how our country has been turned upside down, distorted and violated by our union with the EU”

        How does the EU force the UK to maintain the same capital formation retarding low interest rates policies that the EU (and the United States and Japan) follows?

        How did the EU force the UK to not alert the globe that the collapse of the USSR is a strategic ruse?

        How did the EU force the UK into invading Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya, turning those nations into basket cases, whose populations are now flooding abroad to cause further chaos in Western Europe, but notice: Eastern Europe/USSR is directing the flood to the West, and the West refuses to embarrass the East with the fact that the East refuses to assist the refugees by settling a portion on their territories.

        Looks to me that the UK and the EU are working hand in hand with the USSR to destroy the preeminence of the West.

  • sebastian2

    The only thing keeping us in is the tenacious, though dwindling, delusion that it’s good for us.

    End that delusion and we’re on our way. Fortunately, the delusion appears close to ending itself.

  • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

    That is ridiculous – First – EU treaty does not speak to free movement between EU, Asia and Africa.
    Second – I will not even dignify with an answer ignorant statement about your imaginary “honey pots”. If you did at least minimum homework you would see that Eastern Europe is exploited by EU which caused irreparable damage to its economy. Next you will be trying to persuade the public that Greece is net beneficiary of EU.

    • Mongo Part II

      Then why did the East Europe countries decide to willingly join the EU if it’s so awful?

      • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

        iron curtain + brainwashing. snake oil, easy meat.

      • Fraser Bailey

        Because the EU showered them with money for nothing. The problem now is that the EU wants something in return. Namely, the endless transfer of money to Greece, and the presence of millions of people with alien beliefs.

  • WTF

    Like most people in the UK and Europe, we were sold a crock of s*** by the ruling elite over what being a member of the EU actually meant in practice. Being somewhat naive we were suckered in by the promise of advantages such as easier money exchange, lower costs, free movement of
    people and goods. All the petty rules, inconveniences and bureaucracy were to be swept aside with one common EU standard whether its driving a car, buying a property of even buying goods in one country and selling them in another. None of this has occurred and even more layers of
    rules have been imposed on the peoples of Europe by the control freaks in Brussels.

    Transfer of money from one bank to another in the same country which is usually free in the UK costs a fortune in Spain for example. Cashing a £40 pension cheque in Spain will see half of its value disappear in transaction charges and even paying in a Spanish euro check will cost you 15 euros. What ever happened to that promise of simple and low cost bank charges across Europe, it never happened even in the Euro zone.

    Driver licenses are a complete mish-mash of rules as they haven’t been harmonized into one pan European issuing body. A UK license may or may not be valid if you are a resident in Spain depending who you talk to. The Policia Local will say one thing whilst the traffic police Guardia
    Civil will tell you something different. As for rules of the road, in France you must carry an approved alcometer but not in Spain or the UK, in Spain you must have 2 warning triangles and a hi-viz jacket for every person in the car plus two pairs of glasses if you need glasses. Is there any consistency in driving regulations across the EU, he**ll no, its a mess designed to entrap motorists to fine them.

    Freedom of goods, in theory it was meant that you could move whatever you like between countries and even sell goods. Just try that with cigarettes and alcohol and see what happens.

    Anyway, you get the picture that simple laws to help the citizens of Europe have not been implemented whilst a mountain of cr**ap laws have been applied that frustrate and cost everyone dearly. Its time to revert back to a free trade area and repeal all the useless and onerous EU
    laws created by the fascists in Brussels.

  • abystander

    In which country, in which election has a party advocating withdrawal from the EU won a majority of seats or votes?

    That would be none, right.

    Ever. Not even in Greece.

    • Matthew Onwualu

      Yet. That’s the whole point. Iceland was about to join and now isn’t

      • abystander

        Iceland is not and has never been a member of the EU.

        In no EU Member State has the citizenry ever voted for a party proposing leaving the EU.

        • Matthew Onwualu

          The Conservative party has lot of Europsceptics. Not all mainstream parties in power can be said to be for or against the EU as a party.

          Also what’s your point?

          • abystander

            Murray writes

            “pro EU countries are harder and harder to find”

            This is a lie.

          • Matthew Onwualu

            I think he’s just making a general statement of how euroskepticism is growing to a very very mainstream thought in every country in light of how pathetic Europe’s responses to recent crises has been

          • abystander

            He is making a sweeping general statement about 27 countries, about which he knows precious little backed by very flimsy evidence and negated by election results in those countries.

          • Matthew Onwualu

            It is factually correct that euroskepticism has skyrocketed in wake of Europe’s impotent response to the refugee crisis, the impotent response to the Eurozone crisis, and the humanitarian catastrophe that has befallen Greece and Spain from the euro.

            That is not a sweeping generalization, it is a fact. I think you are reading too much into his language.

          • abystander

            Facts are chiels that winnae ding.

            In no EU country has a eurosceptic party won a domestic election.

            So much for skyrocketing.

          • Matthew Onwualu

            Parities aren’t necessarily europskeptic or not. Jeremy Corbyn is euroskeptic (though he did moderate his position for political expediency) while Cameron is pro-EU (though his party has a fair share of euroskeptics).

            It would be splitting hairs to define whether or not the huge increase in euroskepticism can only be validated by some EU country with an EU withdrawal platform taking power.

            Just look at the public polls

  • Stumps

    I think the immigration over the years from outside the EU killed the dream for many people. Recent events seem to be bringing this to a head,the French elections will be interesting.
    Elephant in the room that the EU ignores.

    • Fraser Bailey

      The French elections will indeed be very interesting. Not least because we will see whether the traditional Left and Right gang up on the FN as imagined/predicted by Houellebecq.

      • Clive

        This is interesting:

        …The president has now officially declared war on Le Pen and dubbed her his most important opponent in regional elections in December, which are seen as an early indicator for the presidential election. This would never have happened in the past. Up until now, the established parties preferred to simply ignore the Front National. But that is no longer an option. The question is whether this will not in fact increase Le Pen’s popularity even further.

  • lindzen4pm

    Let’s cut to the chase, Douglas. The EU had determined we become an Islamised Republic, and, um, most of the folks demur. Time to get out before it turns really nasty. After all, you more than most know the problems we have currently with the ROP, and the little matter of freedom of speech.

    • Callan

      Caught half an interview by some politician/expert on the Today programme. Amongst his questionable reasons for continuing in the EUSSR he submitted this gem ” Immigration will fall dramatically when the economies in the countries of all those immigrants coming here eventually show massive improvement which will inevitably mean they prefer to stay at home rather than come to UK”. I shall watch carefully for news of such an improvement in Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Somalia, Pakistan, Iraq, Bangladesh…… In the meantime as the population grows to 100 million we must remain positive.

  • andyrwebman

    “In Ireland major business leaders are now publicly saying that if the UK
    decides to leave in 2017, then Ireland should think of stepping out

    This could highlight a huge post Brexit opportunity. There’s evidence that the Dutch, the Danes and the Swedes amongst others would be happy to join us in a free trade organisation shorn of the bad parts of EU membership.

  • misomiso


  • Cyril Sneer

    It’s hardly surprising.

    The big EU experiment has failed and so has the multi-cult experiment.

    Time to return to sovereignty.

  • Cyril Sneer

    User generated Vote on the BBC news site on whether to leave or stay in EU – vote up to leave = 161 votes, vote down to stay = 28 votes.

    The post has only been up one hour.

  • Kieron Russell

    The EU is already broken – It’s raison d’etre is becoming less coherent by the day. Screw the EU – it’s a disaster – the party’s over.

  • Dave

    Most likely it is realism