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Rod Liddle

How moderate are moderate Muslims?

There is an ocean between what British Muslims believe and what the rest of us believe

(Photo: Getty)

23 April 2016

9:00 AM

23 April 2016

9:00 AM

‘What’s in the news this week?’ I asked my wife as she browsed the first newspaper we had seen for a whole week, having hitherto been blissfully disconnected from the rest of the country, without phones or the internet.

‘Muslims, largely,’ she replied, flicking from page to page, ‘a bit on in-and-out, but mainly it’s the Muslims.’ Oh, good. A perpetual optimist, I had rather hoped that during our week away the frequently promised Islamic Reformation might have taken place and peace and enlightenment spread all those many miles from the jungles of Banda Aceh to the dilapidated terraces of Kirklees. But nope, apparently not. They were still up to their stuff, a good few of them.

For a start, there was the fallout from Trevor Phillips’s excellent film about Islam in Britain, in which he reported, via an ICM poll, that two thirds of British Muslims would refuse to grass on a fellow Muslim, no matter how much ricin he was storing in his lock-up. And the added worry that virtually none share our outlook on life, don’t want to integrate and possess views about Jewish people which Ernst Röhm would have thought a bit gamey.


The fallout consisted of Muslims interviewed by the Guardian angrily denouncing the film as ‘divisive’: even those who do not blow things up are still partial to a spot of messenger-shooting, then. And then there was the appalling tale of the Glaswegian shopkeeper Asad Shah, an Ahmadiyya Muslim, stabbed to death by, allegedly, another Muslim for offending his sensibilities. And while the Glasgow Central Mosque expressed ‘shock’ at Mr Shah’s murder, its most senior imam — Maulana Habib Ur Rehman — has previously honoured a Muslim who murdered a blasphemer.

Meanwhile leaflets demanding the liquidation of the peaceable Ahmadiyyas were discovered in various other mosques up and down the country and a Facebook site entitled Anti Qadianiat greeted Mr Shah’s slaughter with a jubilant ‘Congratulations all Muslims!’ and drew approving comments from across the Muslim world. In the UK there has never been a prosecution for inciting religious hatred of any Muslim who has urged death upon the Ahmadiyyas — yet it happens frequently. In other news, the Times reported that a substantial proportion of the Muslim chaplains paid by the government to minister to the disproportionate number of Muslim criminals are actually inciting them to acts of extremism, rather than asking them nicely to be law-abiding. This story ran next to a quite astonishing tale about a bear discovered defecating in some woodland. We pay the 200 Muslim chaplains £40,000 a pop to further inculcate in these Muslim miscreants a greater sense of victimhood and irreducible loathing of western values. Most of the chaplains — some 70 per cent, the Times reckoned — are followers of the Deobandi school of Islam. So too are the Muslims who want all the Ahmadiyyas exterminated. Deobandi scholars influenced the Taleban, and the creed is behind a whole bunch of terrorist organisations operating out of Pakistan (and banned by the country’s benighted government). Did we think paying for these chaplains would help matters? What did we expect them to tell the inmates? Sew up those mailbags and find redemption in Jesus Christ?

It is likely that we convinced ourselves that the chaplains were ‘moderates’, as opposed to ‘extremists’ — a mistake which has been made time and time again over the last 15 years. A consequence of our desperate wish to believe that the faith itself is beyond reproach: it is merely the actions of a few evil men that discombobulate us all — the ‘extremists’. But those two terms lose all meaning when applied to the fissiparous and splenetic tribes of Islam. I remember a decade or so back a row breaking out when the then mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, invited the Egyptian Muslim preacher Yusuf al Qaradawi to the capital for a spot of congenial dialogue, presumably at the taxpayer’s expense. Many people objected, calling Qaradawi an extremist who should not be allowed to set foot in the country. No, no, said the Muslims, and Ken: Yusuf’s definitely a moderate.

Well, let’s see. This is a man who supports the execution of apostates, the murder of Israeli civilians, whipping homosexuals, genital mutilation and unconditional support for the terrorists Hezbollah, and who thinks that women who have been raped must prove they are of good conduct before anyone takes them seriously. And yet, in the wider context of the Muslim world, Ken was right — Yusuf is a moderate. For example, he believes that while uppity women should indeed be beaten by their husbands, this should occur only as a last resort and the husband should not use a stick. This makes old Yusuf a sort of Menzies Campbell of Islam — well towards the liberal wing of the ideology. There’s also his leniency towards homosexuals — lash the buggers by all means, but don’t push them off roofs. The term ‘extremist’ and ‘moderate’ serve only to re-inforce our collective delusions. They make no sense. They lead to the kind of problems we are now seeing with our state-sponsored Muslim chaplains, as they wander from cell to cell disseminating hatred or idiocies.

The Deobandis were also regarded as ‘moderate’, you see — and indeed, compared to some of the Salafist and Wahabi maniacs, they are a little more amenable in general. Not all of them yearn for the annihilation of the Ahmadiyyas or whatever other sect fails to believe precisely what they believe. But while there is a healthy trickle of clear blue water between what most British Muslims believe and what, for example, is believed by the Islamic State, there is an ocean between what they believe and what the rest of us here in the UK believe.

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Show comments
  • John Birch

    And there always has been .with all the evidence of the tribal chaos in Muslim country’s and the evidence of history how can any sane person believe they can integrate to our western way of life.

    • Patrick

      They don’t need to ‘integrate to our western ways’, our western ways will only last a couple of generations more. In France, Muslims make up 25% of the under 5 year old population, Britain has roughly 10 % of under 5’s who are Muslim . The rest of Western Europe has the same kind of statistics, and each year these percentages are growing, due to uncontrolled immigration and larger Muslim families. We need to start thinking how we can integrate to their ways.

      • Fencesitter

        The word is submit, Patrick.

      • justejudexultionis

        No, we need to expel them and drive them back into Arabia.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Drive all those not just like you out, just as ISIL believes.

      • Tara Connor

        I can’t think of a better reason for the H-bomb after all.–it was good enuff for Japan.

  • Another depressing but truthful article about our delusional thinking. Isn’t the time long overdue for a McCarthyite inquisition into how the fellow travellers and appeasers have wormed their way into every section of decision making in the UK. After all, in a sane society all those extremist chaplains would have been sacked long ago but that is not even on the agenda for discussion, let alone being anywhere near to implementation.

    • alfredo

      I’ve been thinking that we need a McCarthy for some time now. But if he’s going to start with our schools and colleges, as he logically should, make the order 10 McCarthys, each living to 150.

    • goodsoldier

      If the Welfare state wasn’t so generous, most Muslims would self-deport.

      • YorkshireBobby

        And that is the real crux of the matter. A benefits system that pays out without any reference to what has been paid in by the recipients

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Ah, the young, the elderly, the disabled…your enemy, check.

          • YorkshireBobby

            No, just those that take out before paying in

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Right, so you also, as well as the young, elderly and disabled hate the poor. Thanks for clarifying how much wider your hate of many British people is.

          • YorkshireBobby

            No, just the feckless adults that haven’t paid into the system, probably like you. The great “entitled” of this world that have contributed nothing of value to society. You seem to have an awful lot of spare time judging by the number of “contributions” made to this site

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, the elderly, the disabled, the poor, etc.

            As you hate taxpayers like me, as you hate the 99%. As you whine hate at me for spending an odd hour as I want… how dare I not be toiling (for free, of course) for you.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        If your enemies the disabled, young and elderly were poorer, magically Muslims would vanish you say?

    • There’s going to be a McCarthyite inquisition all right, but it is going to be at least as concerned with investigating anybody who tries to criticize Islam:

      https://chaunceytinker.wordpress.com/2016/03/20/extremist-banning-and-disruption-orders/

      Meanwhile leaflets that clearly incite to murder are not investigated even though they are already illegal under our current law.

      • Indeed this is the case. I wonder how any British politician daring to speak as bluntly as Donald Trump would be treated by the Law and the Media. The way the heavy hand of the state came down on Tommy Robinson, as outlined in his book “Enemy of the State” is a real eyeopener.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          You mean commercial law was enforced? Er…

          • Hardly. It shows the Police to be highly politicised.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            The police?

            Tip – Isn’t the police who charge people with that sort of offense!
            And he pleaded guilty. Or do you mean the time he traveled on someone else’s passport?

            (Incidentally, I’ll take this opportunity to condemn the violent attack against him in Feb…)

          • Well at least we’ve reached consensus on one aspect then.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            It’s not hard – I condemn violence and terrorism.

            I’m concerned with lowering them, not blaming entire groups of people, most of whom are perfectly normal.

            Ask me if i.e. we should be dealing with the Saudis who are funding extremist preachers here? (NO!)
            We should be dealing with India and not Pakistan as a long-term ally, etc.

          • More agreement with you here too, but of course too many Western Governments are going down the opposite course to that and they are playing with fire.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Sure, but the reasons in the case of Saudi are – let’s not kid ourselves – money.
            Lucrative defense contracts, for instance.

            I condemn that sort of thing from the left quite handily, without needing to condemn communities, as so many here feel the need to do :/

            (I *am* Jewish, and am hardly the appoligist for extremism some people want to paint me as, I’m just not monodimensionally focused on Muslims – the vandalism problem round here is really, really not Muslims for instance)

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Yes, your far right get away with a lot. Oh well.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Yes, of course you want an irrational moral panic and witch hunt against anyone not of your ideology, as you decry British democracy.

      As you say your radical views are the only “sane ones”, those “radical” MP’s and Councillors of those Tory and Labor parties…

      No, your coup isn’t on the agenda. Thankfully.

      • The irrational response is burying your head in the sand which is what current policy amounts to.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Sure. A crackdown on the far right is overdue.

          • Those to blame for any rise of the so-called far right are the Establishment political parties and leaders who’ve deserted those they claim to support and refuse to listen to their concerns. This has led to politicians such as Le Pen receiving over 40% in recent ballots. Believe me, following the course you seem to advocate, will simply see that support snowball, and not just in France.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, that excuse for the far right, check.
            The “so-called” crimes you issue an apologia for.

            As you say unless your fanatics are appeased…when a better course is education and de-radicalisation schemes.

            The course I advocate is, incidentally, not purging people based on PC bigotry.

          • That is your blind spot. If you look at the typical AfD or Le Pen voter or even Pegida supporters, they look very far removed from 1930s Nazis in Germany or Italian Fascists. They are actually largely mainstream people, however much you dislike their politics.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Sorry, but the fact is the same base ideology of dehumanising their opponents is used. The followups are…nastier.

            (Heck, the Tories are using it on the disabled here)

            There’s concerned groups which manage otherwise, at least at the leadership level. UKIP, while IMO none to careful about some of it’s followers, is clearly culturally imperialist rather than any strand of racist or worse.

          • The “followups” will only happen if these people continue to not be listened to, or worse openly denigrated for their opinions and concerns.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Pandering to extremist views rather than educating people is a bad idea. The followups will happen if those views are appeased, as shown by history. People seen as “lesser” become valid targets – as I said, look at what the Tories are doing to the disabled here!

            And for example, wage myths. Studies have shown the people who lose out are near-universally other recent immigrants. But yet immigrants are widely blamed for the effects of Torynomics* for example.

            (*I don’t name it right wing, because it’s just idiotic – plenty of right wing economists have been telling the Tories their economics don’t work)

            Again, there are groups which are right wing, and strongly so, without resorting to truly nasty tactics which can lead down a dangerous path again.

            (I think UKIP leadership are wrong, but not as say the BNP leadership actively nasty!)

          • One person’s perception of extremist views is someone else’s perception of common sense, eg is opposition to “Open Borders” extremist or common sense? Conversely is support for “Open Borders” common sense or extremist?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, there are clear lines – which relate to preaching hate and violence. Dehumanisation as a tactic should be unacceptable in any civilized society.

            And there are not open borders, so that in itself is propaganda and the sensible answer is again education.

          • Who exactly is preaching hate and violence?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Far Right
            Islamists
            Terrorist groups in general

          • Zaba

            Islamists

            islam is islam

          • Leon Wolfeson

            That’s your view as an Islamist.
            Most Muslims disagree.

            As you deny the far right…deny terrorism…

          • Agreed, though this article in the Independent shows who he is generally feared the most, and with good reason: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/jews-are-leaving-france-in-record-numbers-amid-rising-anti-semitism-and-fears-of-more-isis-inspired-a6832391.html

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Well, let me put it this way – the vandalism and some recent pushing in the street round here of Jewish people? Not Muslims.

  • Richard Lally

    The intolerance between Catholics and Protestants in the 16th and 17th centuries eventually brought about a recognition that religious tolerance was a necessary corollary to civilized society.
    Just as we have to be very careful how many freedoms we ditch in pursuit of security, we need to be careful not to react to intolerance with intolerance. By all means lock people up when they break the law but persecuting a segment of society would be fascism.
    (Note: I disapprove of Islam, which seems to be an especially primitive and intrinsically violent faith)

    • right1_left1

      (…)we need to be careful not to react to intolerance with intolerance

      This argument is flawed.
      Only the trendy sophist ( eg Mehdi Hasan and possibly Richard Lally) can fail to recoginse the difference between Islam ‘bad intolerance’ and ‘good intolerance’ opposition to and control of the major political planks underlying Islam.

      Disapproving of Islam is useless.
      Action is required.
      I concede serious social fracture will then occur but sooner or later it will anyway !

      • Seeker

        A Briton should be able to say and think he pleases. Even about illegal acts, as long as he refrains from doing. He may join a Leninist Group, or a Mosque.

        But Britain is under no obligation to let in anyone. The Government, elected by the people to carry out their wishes, may keep out whom it likes.

        Maximum freedom within the borders, strict control at the borders. And those who do not believe in liberty are candidates for exclusion.

    • justejudexultionis

      You cannot be ‘tolerant’ of bigotry and terrorism. Islam is a backward, violent political death cult masquerading as a religion. It is as antithetical to western democracy as Nazism was in its time. Our ‘leaders’ are cowards and hypocrites who are increasingly in the pay of these desert bigots.

    • Jacobi

      Both Catholics and Protestant now accept religious tolerance. Some of the 16/17th century wars went too far . But in doing so they went against the teaching of their Founder. A Muslim in choosing rape and forced conversion or massacre is following one or more of the many vicarious teachings of its founder.

      There is the problem!

    • LittleRedRidingHood

      At what point do you draw the line of meeting intolerance with intolerance. When there is open wholesale slaughter in our communities. A strong leadership should have reacted firmly without wavering 20 years ago. The longer it goes on the worse the reaction will have to be.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Yes yes, keep making your excuses for violence, as you wanted to purge minorities 20 years ago, you say… your sort of Putin-like strongman…

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          Violence is inevitable if this continues much longer. I guarantee it will the the leftist fascists and their pet projects who start it.
          I’m sure you’ll be with them.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, I’m sure you’ll be violent. As you try to blame the left, Fash.

            That’s the excuse you’ll use for attacking Jews like me, right.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Sure are you? Delusion seems to be a trait of leftists like you.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, more spewed PC bigotry against normal people from your fanatical views.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Another nonsensical collection of words from which I can project the gist of what you are trying to articulate

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you do anything but read English, as you see mythical “gists” in your mind.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I’m looking for composition and grammer. I’m still struggling to find anything half decent from you I’m afraid

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you can’t find anything as bad as your whining in my posts? Right.
            Thanks for finding so much. Now, about your magical “gists”…try understanding the contents instead.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I’m waiting for something worthy.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, you’re “waiting” for agreement with you.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Nope something sensible I can refute unless you can prove the contrary.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Right, as I said.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Not everyone will agree with you Leon. In fact I suspect most people don’t.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Funny, I don’t demand most agree with me!

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Excellent. Don’t complain if I refute it reject your opinion then. Simple.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Reject? Sure.
            Refute? Hahahahha.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Come back with something I can actually refute you pr!ck!.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Given your stated goal to harass me, you’re on form.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Nice try Loretta. Your incompetence is legendary.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So one of your other usernames is “Loretta”. Nice to know.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            No, but your other aliases are d!ckhead and numpty. You bring nothing. Just give up fool.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            You started it flowerpot.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “IZ YOU”

            Blaming me for your agenda and obession, when I simply don’t hold your views…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Check back in your history luvvie. You seek people out who disagree with you or question you. You have form.
            Then you post shyte.
            I will call you out every time you post in reponse to me ignoramous. You are nothing but a troll with a chip on your shoulder, playing the racist card.
            Trot on you troll.

    • Dacorum

      “The intolerance between Catholics and Protestants in the 16th and 17th centuries eventually brought about a recognition that religious tolerance was a necessary corollary to civilized society”.
      That just won’t happen with Islam due to the 100 + plus passages in the Koran etc calling for Jihad. They don’t have a New Testament that preaches “Love thy Neighbour” or forgiveness.

    • Is condoning child abuse, murder, rape, slavery also a “necessary corollary” to civilized society?

  • Mr Grumpy

    My goodness, Rod, you’re way behind the times. What about the ever so moderate Mayor-in-waiting of London and his curious inability to find his way to the door of a room containing Suliman Gani? What about the new NUS President who thinks there’s nothing too much wrong with Jews that freeing the world from the grip of the Learned Elders of Zion wouldn’t fix?

    Re the irresistible Mr Gani, here’s something to get you started on your next piece of racist dog-whistling:

    http://www.wimbledonguardian.co.uk/news/8451539.Worshippers_told_to_boycott_Ahma%20diyya_shops/

  • Frank

    Expecting this Government, or the last four, to have a rational and coherent policy on Britain’s muslim population is delusional. As usual, this is in large part due to the bien pensants in the establishment and the media (eg Trevor Phillips, the Guardian, the BBC, Channel 4 and the Labour party).

  • right1_left1

    It’s pointless to say anything negative about Islam at the moment: our political leaders wont listen.
    So I will say something positive.
    See that photo at the top of the article?
    Well anyone lost in central London would at least have a compass bearing as they drove past the raised back sides !

    • Bonkim

      Wrong direction. Allah WILL NOT HEAR!

      • mark

        Satan does not really respond to his worshipfull muslims of course.

    • Patrick

      I’m an ex-pat who has worked in Egypt for nine years and I’m always surprised at how many different directions Muslims here point at when praying. My son’s nanny had to ask me where the sun sets so she could pray, yet workmen over the road pray at a vastly different angle to her ! I think the average Muslim here couldn’t tell their a@£e from their elbow when it comes to praying.

  • FrankS2

    Just wondering – why no comments allowed on your Sun piece today, Rod?

  • nancoise

    And as soon as the PM opened his mouth to say something true yet distasteful about Sadiq Khan yesterday, the other side of the Commons exploded into shouts of ‘Racist! Racist!’

    Islam is not a race, of course, but I guess it’s not acceptable to shout ‘Shut up!’ in Parliament.

    • justejudexultionis

      The multiculturalists are too stupid to understand the difference between a race and a religion.

      • Speedy

        The greatest friends of Islam are the illiberal and left wing intelligentsia who persist in blaming the victims and making excuses for savages.

        • Anna Bananahammok

          Intelligentsia? Have you taken a good look at Corbyn, Livingstone and Co?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So you blame the left, when it’s your far right with the similar views…

      • montyburns56

        And the difference between race and culture.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Ah yes, those who don’t want to purge i.e. Jews and Sihks….and people who actually use words as their current meaning…

        • Monkish

          I do hope you’re not a Jew. I would be ashamed to have you as a member of my tribe.

          • Zaba

            the muzlims on comment threads love to take Jewish sounding names.

            Notice how we never or rarely see self identifying muzlims?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I’m not your sort of far right idiot, no.

            I’m Jewish, and there’s a very very limited number of far right idiots among Jews…the CST keep track of them.

          • Monkish

            Two sorts of Jews: those who like the Jewish people and wish to preserve it and those who subscribe to an ethos they think stems from Judaism but is, in act, antithetical to the interests and long-term survival of the Jewish people. Which one are you?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I don’t support you and your anti-Jewish goals. Like your “sorts”.

            A Jew is a Jew.
            That you oppose all but i.e. the few useful idiots from America who stood up in Iran…

          • Zaba

            What sort of human are you to so fiercely defend culture destroying islam?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, the “cultural destruction” of allowing another religion, check.
            As I defend simply not condemning people on the basis of your far right thought crime theory.

          • Zaba

            islam is neither another religion or a religion at all.
            It is a political ideology that whacks you for leaving.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            That’s your view as an Islamist, again.
            Thankfully, it’s not that widespread here.

          • Zaba

            it’s not that widespread here.

            Good point.

            Lack of education about islam is the biggest problem we have in the West.
            islam is in second place.

            politicalislam.com

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, you want people “educated” in your ideology so they can be a problem for others, Islamist, check. As you try and incite others against your co-religionists…how sad.

          • Zaba

            so many secrets in islam

            Kitman is a subfield of Ḥiyal (the science of deception or legal trickery), consisting of the art of making ambiguous statements,

            paying lip-service to authority while reserving personal opposition, in a kind of political camouflage or reservatio mentalis.

            The use of such practices to conceal one’s religious affiliation when facing persecution or oppression is known as takiya.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, magical secrets. As you do the magic of revealing them here, wowzor.
            Or rather, making up crap to justify your PC.

            And then you talk about a defense against people like you.

          • Zaba

            …. justify your PC.

            Are you suggesting revealing islam is PC?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I’m saying you and your PC are PC.

            As you simply preach hate off a few hate websites.

          • Zaba

            PC
            me
            funny!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You certainly are funny. The nasty sort of funny, PC bigot.

          • Zaba

            Why is it that muzims specialize in internecine warfare?

            11 million Muslim-on-Muslim killings since 1948 (Statistics)

            “Some 11,000,000 Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000, or 0.3 percent, died during the sixty years of fighting Israel, or just 1 out of every 315 Muslim fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent of the 11 million who perished were killed by fellow Muslims.”

            https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/staggering-statistics-on-muslims-killing-muslims-2/

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your far right keep fighting each other as well. Where’s your count there?

            Not to mention violence among people of other religions. Then there’s capitalist-capitalist violence, etc.

          • Zaba

            Mostly islam that racks up the significant numbers.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, denial of so many deaths…justifying them even, check.

          • Zaba

            No denial.
            The numbers are stunning!

            Muslims have massacred over 669+ million non-Muslims since 622AD

            In the total numbers we have updated over 80 million Christians killed by Muslims in 500 years in the Balkan states, Hungary, Ukraine, Russia.

            Then we have India. The official estimate number of Muslim slaughters of Hindus is 80 million. However, Muslim historian Firistha (b. 1570) wrote (in either Tarikh-i Firishta or the Gulshan-i Ibrahim) that Muslims slaughtered over 400 million Hindus up to the peak of Islamic rule of India, bringing the Hindu population down from 600 mil to 200 million at the time.

            https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/06/19/muslims-have-killed-over-590-million-non-muslims-since-the-birth-of-mohammed/

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Baseless numbers, check. And denial of other people’s slaughters, check.

            As you take the high estimates no matter the cause, and as you link more hate preachers, determined to blame people for who they were born as, to make not being just like you unacceptable.

          • Zaba

            “It is the nature of Islam to dominate, not to be dominated, to impose its law on all nations and to extend its power to the entire planet.”

            – Hassan al-Banna (Founder, Muslim Brotherhood)

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And that’s the view of one of the problems, the Muslim Brotherhood. Who are highly unpopular with an awful lot of Muslims.

            Your ideology is equally a problem, also being extremist. No faith, creed or belief has a monopoly on it.

          • Zaba

            I have noticed that when Muslims are presented with the bare and unvarnished facts of Muhammad’s life as presented in the original sources of Islam written 12 to 14 hundred years ago, they respond as people do when one of their friends or relatives has committed a violent crime.

            The first response is to deny that the accused could possibly have done such a thing.

            http://staringattheview.blogspot.ca/2009/12/muslims-and-muhammad-and-his-raids.html

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you notice, based on people you’d never ever meet…right.
            As you copy/paste the same old crap.

          • Zaba

            I’ve never met mohammad either.

          • Monkish

            Nope, Ben Gurion is not Leon Trotsky. Moses Montefiore is not Joel Teitelbaum. Hans Jonas is not Judith Butler. The former were people whose lives were a credit to the Jews. The latter did nothing but bring disgrace upon their people. It has nothing to do with left or right. It has to do with “ahavat yisrael.” Either you have it or you don’t. Today’s Western left liberal Jews have, for the most part, lost it completely as they have traded klal yisrael for the chimeras of multikulti toleration and global humanitarianism.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, divide and conquer, denying Jews are Jews… this has everything to do with your right wing views and your hate of most Jews. Your targeting people like Ben Gurion to slur for your anti-Jewish agenda…

          • Monkish

            Not a very good reader are we? Ben Gurion is a hero of mine. And where did I deny that that a scoundrel like the Satmar Rebbe Joel Teitelbaum, who abandoned his community to the fascists, was Jewish? There’s the good son and the evil son. Both are Jews. Your politics are redolent of the latter’s attitude.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, smearing people with your nasty views is not making them out to be Heros. It’s making them out to be scoundrels and villains!

            As you show your superficial knowledge of Judaism and your complete lack of knowledge of Pesach, as you hate on my being Jewish once more.

          • Monkish

            Lol, I’m not going to even bother to decrypt your nonsensical reply. I’ve read a few of your comments and I’ve yet to encounter ANY evidence of knowledge of Judaism or strong attachment to the Jewish people. Even Teitelbaum, while an utter immoral disgrace, had a legitimate claim to being a hakham. To paraphrase Arendt, your Judaism seems to have “evaporated into the dim cloud of general philanthropy and universalism.”

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, you can’t be arsed tor ead other people’s posts, no, as you simply spew hate at me for being Jewish, blah blah – I’m sure you want to evaporate me.

          • Monkish

            Wot!? Paranoid much?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I don’t share your issues. As you prove once more you’re not reading my posts.

          • Zaba

            smearing people with your nasty views

            As you do, reflecting islam’s ‘best’.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I don’t share your nasty views. And am not Muslim.

          • Zaba

            The latter, if a Jew at all…..

          • Zaba

            I’m Jewish

            What sort of Jew would defend islam as you do?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, a late, unbelievable claim when you’ve been preaching Islamism.

            As you wonder why I don’t condemn people regardless of their actual beliefs and actions.

            I condemn extremism, as I don’t engage in thought crime theory. If you do, and are an extremist then you’re part of the problem Britain faces.

          • Zaba

            You defend the ummah

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your fantasy demands that I behave as you want me to are 100% from your head.

            I condemn orwellians like you.

          • Zaba

            The only fantasy was mohammad’s which turned bloody, quickly.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And there you are again, supporting your own views about your faith…

          • Zaba

            islam is a culture destroyer.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, I hear you want to take your Islamism and destroy culture.

            I stand against you, other Islamists and any other brand of extremism.

          • Zaba

            islam has many secrets.

            This is a fine example of takiya, the koranic admonition
            for ALL muslims to lie and deceive in order to further islam.
            Yes, islam is that insidious!

            For the skinny on islam:

            thereligonofpeace.com

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your claim of “takiya”…as you condemn people for not lying down and simply accepting harassment and worse…as you show your ignorance of i.e. Sihk views on what to do in that situation.

            For the “skinny” on those who want to prove themselves more regressive than any mere Islamist…

          • Zaba

            uh huh

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, those uncomfortable facts.

            Let’s remember, people, Zaba wants people to be intolerant of his nasty little PC views.

          • Zaba

            those uncomfortable facts.

            The Greatest Murder Machine in History

            The enormity of the slaughters of the “religion of peace” are so far beyond comprehension that even honest historians overlook the scale.

            When one looks beyond our myopic focus, Islam is the greatest killing machine in the history of mankind, bar none.

            http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/05/the_greatest_murder_machine_in_history.html#ixzz3w8m1Rtio

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you whitewash the killings done by anyone else, as you smear historians not going with your fantasies.

            As you try and say that refusing to acknowledge facts and blindly spouting propaganda…

          • Zaba

            whitewash the killings done by anyone else
            Khybar Oasis

            628 CE

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your ideological ally, 22 July 2011.

            But details.

          • Zaba

            Kidding Ourselves About Islam

            The West’s feather-footed leaders tread softly when extolling “moderate” Muslims as the purported antidote to the creed’s literalist firebrands and militant extremists. What they lack the courage to acknowledge is that the Qur’an is itself the fountainhead of radicalism

            Perhaps the most dangerous consensus is the misconception that Islamic State (ISIS), the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and other Islamic terrorist variants are the problem to be addressed and that, with sufficient firepower, the obvious manifestations of these elements can be contained or eliminated. In fact these groups are simply elements of a much larger issue: the re-emergence of a militant and resurgent Islam.

            http://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2016/03/muddle-headed-thinking-will-solve-islamic-imbroglio/

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes yes, they don’t share your self-hate, or your PC bigotry.

            As you say not hating people simple for who they are is “dangerous”, as you promote your friends, not wanting them fought. They share your views, after all.

          • Zaba

            from Churchill’s unabridged The River War:

            How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Churchill was an unregenerate old bigot, and?

            As he whines about the effects of capitalism, but details.

          • Zaba

            Shoot the messenger……

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You might well follow that ideology. Violence is, of course, distressingly commonly seen as a resort for fanatics of any stripe.

          • Zaba

            Islam is Intolerant.
            To Be Tolerant of Intolerance is Cowardice.

            Ayaan Hirshi Ali.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your *version* of Islam is intolerance.

            And fine, I’ll be intolerant of your whining here. Time travel back to your own age.

          • Zaba

            My version of islam is the same as 1.2 Billion current and former muzlims including Ayaan Hirshi Ali.
            We ALL get islam from the mohammadan book trilogy.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes yes, you keep claiming your few fanatics are the same as all, check.

            As you show your complete ignorance of how Muslims practice their faith – you’re an extremist far more heretical than most, given your refusal to follow one of the Schools of Islam…one of a very few, in fact.

            As you said, get ye gone to your dark ages.

          • Zaba

            complete ignorance of how Muslims practice their faith

            Another excellent point.
            it is important to know what muzlims pray, eh?

            MUSLIMS CURSE THE KUFFAR 17 TIMES A DAY IN THEIR PRAYERS…

            Robert Spencer explains:

            Now — what about those prayers? In the course of praying the requisite five prayers a day, an observant Muslim will recite the Fatihah, the first surah of the Qur’an and the most common prayer in Islam, seventeen times. The final two verses of the Fatihah ask Allah: “Show us the straight path, the path of those whom Thou hast favoured; not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.” The traditional Islamic understanding of this is that the “straight path” is Islam — cf. Islamic apologist John Esposito’s book Islam: The Straight Path. The path of those who have earned Allah’s anger are the Jews, and those who have gone astray are the Christians.

            http://sheikyermami.com/2011/06/muslims-curse-the-kuffar-17-times-a-day-in-their-prayers/

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, I agree, you’re completely ignorant.

            As you copy/paste from hate websites. Bad translations, etc.
            And as you show your ignorance of i.e. what Jews pray…

          • Zaba

            islam has many secrets…….

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Same as was said about Judaism, of course

            Same tactics from you as the ones before… your ideology has not changed much.

          • Zaba

            What is Islam?

            Islam is a cultural, religious and political system. Only the political system is of interest to kafirs (non-Muslims) since it determines how we are defined and treated.

            The Islamic political system is contained in the Koran, the Hadith (the traditions of Mohammed) and his biography, the Sira.

            ….the Koran has 61% of its text devoted to the kafir. The Sira (Mohammed’s biography) has about 75% of its text devoted to the kafir and jihad.

            http://www.politicalislam.com/about/

          • Leon Wolfeson

            What is Zaba?

            Zaba is a bigot. He blames most Muslims for being so much nicer than he is. He rants here about Kafirs. He refuses to acknowledge how other Muslims believe and practice. He admits his monofocus on his enemies, and his desire to replace the holy books with crap off hate websites.

          • Zaba

            And then there’s halal.
            Every kaffir should be aware of this.

            HALAL: A TASTE OF TERROR

            The growing alarm over where the funds of the multi-billion-dollar industry end up.

            If women in the hijab and burka are the visible representation of Muslim presence in the West, halal signs are the visible symbol of Muslim supremacism taking hold of it – at least women who veil themselves don’t impose their dress code on others.

            http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/199636/halal-taste-terror-enza-ferreri

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, you want to whip up groundless hate based on nonsense, check.

            As you whine the West dosn’t have your beloved totalitarian colothing rules, as you spew nonsense about “supremacism”, confusing yours for others. Not to mention the real target of course of your buddies there, Kosher meat.

          • Zaba

            You’re right.
            The truth about islam is escaping.

            More good info here:

            themuslimissue.wordpress.com

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you didn’t read my post. As you lie about Islam, say bad is good and keep preaching blind hate.

            Same way your allies preached against Jews, and will return to doing so periodically.

          • Zaba

            As you lie about Islam, say bad is good and keep preaching blind hate.

            bind hate?
            I thought it was justice that’s blind!

            Every jihadi has a clear view of ‘looking pleasing in the eyes of allah’.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, not thinking seems to be one of your most virulent aspects – after all, hate websites tell you all you need to know.

            And that’s your view of yourself, perhaps.
            Fortunately, the law and justice system has a good record of actually stopping people like you…

          • Zaba

            Yes
            A muzim like yourself would see counter jihad news bloggers as hate sites.
            Any discussion about islam with a kaffir is blasphemy, the penalty is final.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you claim a Jew is a “muzim”

            As you defend hate sites, and as you threaten me, check.

        • Zaba

          no mater; islam is not a religion.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            That’s…an odd view.

            And you don’t deny, I note…

          • Zaba

            What religion kills you for leaving?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your extreme views are not those of a whole religion.

          • Zaba

            Too late.
            kaffirs are becoming informed about islam.
            We are fortunate to have many strong voices on the pragmatic side.
            Here are a few:

            politicalislam.com

            themuslimissue.wordpress.com

            gatesofvienna.net

            weaselzippers.us

            ibloga.blogspot.com

            elderofziyon.blogspot.com

            islam 101 at jihadwatch.org

            thereligionofpeace.com

            steynonline.com

            barenakedislam.com

            blazingcatfur.ca

            PamelaGeller.com

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your claim that your Islamists are “pragmatic”, as you make very odd claims about some people… as you then link a bunch of hate preachers who are determined to make Islamists look good…

    • Stuart

      The ‘other side in the commons’ are clearly embracing radical feminism with all its new and wonderful ways of closing down a discussion.

      I’d like to know whether they would describe the brutal murderer of poor, tolerant, Mr Shah as an Islamophobe.

      • Paul

        And yet how do they simultaneously embrace radical feminism and still support ‘moderate’ Muslims. The two are completely opposed to each other. The left used to say that capitalism would fall due to its inherent contradictions. The new left is such a complete mixture of contradictions that it is beginning to devour itself.

        • Stuart

          I know my conscience would not allow me to hold such views Paul. I cannot, thankfully, speak for these contrarians to themselves.

        • Zalacain

          As so often is the case Orwell explained it: Doublethink is the act of simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in distinct social contexts.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Orwell was, of course, talking about your right.

            (The Party) “rejects and vilifies every principle for which the Socialist movement originally stood, and it does so in the name of Socialism”

        • putin

          ” is beginning to devour itself.”

          Indeed. The regressive left are now the new fascists – as Churchill predicted. Marvelous isn’t it. I wonder where it will end. Knowing the left, probably death – ahem – reeducation camps.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Blame the left for your views, check.

      • Jon MC

        It’s an ISLAMOPHILIC murder (just like the average 20K+ per year around the world). His murderer did it for the love of Islam which he claimed Mr. Shah had offended.

        • Stuart

          Thanks.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Your denial of the use of words..

  • Robert Shrubsole

    ISIT A FACT THAT THE GOVT PAY THE PRIESTHOOD OF ALL RELIGIONS IF NOT HOW CAN IT BE JUSTIFIED THAT ISLAMIC PRIESTHOOD IS SPECIALLY PRIVILEGED.DO THE PEOPLE KNOW THAT THE TAXPAYER FINANCES ISLAM AND IF NOT THEY SHOULD BE ASKED IF THEY APPROVE

  • BillRees

    The crazy thing about this article is that Rod Liddle is more in danger of being investigated by the Plod for supposedly whipping up Islamophobia than those chaplains he writes about who encourage prisoners to murder kufirs.

    When on earth are we going to make Muslims accountable for their actions?

    • justejudexultionis

      The police and authorities are too scared to investigate and punish Islamic bigotry as they know that the Muslims would retaliate with extreme violence.

      • Mary

        The fact that they might/would retaliate with extreme violence should be a an added reason for the police and authorities to go after them. We should be demanding that this happens without any further delay.

        • And into the slammer with the lot of them. There they should have to undergo a strict regime of Christian prayer, English language, literature and a skill for when they get out.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, mass work camps with ideological indoctrination, like Stalin before you.

          • NO, not at all. Just some necessary reprogramming in order that they come out reformed with British values and appreciative,able to assimilate and integrate into our society.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            As I said. Your little drones, programed for the True Party.

            ,,,The Party of God. But I mock, I mock!

          • Snow

            Marie is spot on, despite your devious MO of putting your words into other people’s mouths, and then crying offence like a true cry baby

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you’re also a totalitarian spot, as you whine about other views as you blame me for your posts, as you cry harder.

        • logdon

          You sound as if you think that the Law is impartial.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Oh, so sending the “police and authorities” after people who have done nothing wrong, to harass them on your theory that magically violence…

          • Snow

            Seems people agree with Mary 34 to Zero. That’s Zero for Leon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Seems your epeen counting, Mary, is all you have.

            As you support harassment of people who have not broken the law.

          • TartanTerrier

            Insert ‘Gazan civilians’ instead of ‘people’ and ‘murder’ instead of ‘harrassment’ and see where you get…..

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, your fake caring again, as you shill for Hamas, the primary oppressors of Gaza.

      • Ingmar Blessing

        Yep, it’s the same with left-wing extremists. They preferably go after (supposed) right-wing extremists, because they are harmless and there they usually get the help of the police. Islamists tough, shoot back.

        • Snow

          Nearly 4,000 people were referred to the Government’s flagship de-radicalisation scheme last year – almost two and a half times more than the previous year. But although it was designed to tackle Islamic radicalisation, just one third of those referred were Muslims.

          Presumably many others were kids at school who went on line to look at the UKIP website.

          http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/03/21/muslims-account-for-only-a-third-of-referrals-to-governments-de-radicalisation-program

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you support radicals when they’re not targeting the right targets, check.

          • Snow

            It’s amazing what those with a certain type of warped mind can interpret. Please specify where in the comment Iabove “support radicals”. Leon get some help.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, well, your warped mind is an issue, as you want me beaten by thugs, check. As you try and deny what you said.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So you blame people who don’t break the law but happen to be leftist, at all, in any way.

          As you deny right wing extremism… and get confused given how few Islamists there are here…

          • Ingmar Blessing

            I wrote “left-wing extremists” (do you see it? I made a distinction!)

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes. And I’m aware of the way you previously used thought crime ideology and simply applied that.

          • Ingmar Blessing

            “Thought crime” is when you have a stupid concept of reality. That is not illegal and everyone is free to pursue that. In difference to that a “real crime” is when you do something that harms others in their rights.

            Left-wing extremists come with the characteristic that they don’t mind committing “real crimes” to establish their “thought crime”. I mind the first – the committing of “real crimes”.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And yet you used thought crime ideology.

            As you blame the left for your right. As you in fact seem to be saying that a left winger voting is a “real crime”.

          • Ingmar Blessing

            “seem to be” is the crucial part. You, young man, “seem to be” a bit confused.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Really, was I too nice? Is it merely other views existing?
            Well, an Orwellian. That rare bird.

            (TIP – SARCASM)

          • Ingmar Blessing

            thanks, you are quite amusing. If you give me your adress, I will send you a thank you cake.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Funny, going with CST security advice here.

          • Ingmar Blessing

            what’s CST?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            The Community Security Trust

          • Snow

            They would be ashamed of you if they knew the disgraceful way you are abusing it.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so they’d be ashamed for a Jew using it as intended to protect against people like you.

            Let’s see..no. But as you admitted, you’re paranoid, so I guess you’ll blame whoever you can as you…

            (The CST advice is, of course, simply not give personal details to random people on the internet, that you want them…is rather telling)

          • Snow

            The CST sure isn’t designed to “protect” histrionic, drama queen dweebs from losing arguments on social media for lack of intellect and knowledge, and crying like a baby.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you view Jews as “histrionic, drama queen dweebs from losing arguments on social media for
            lack of intellect and knowledge, and crying like a baby.”

            Right, thanks for that anti-Semetic spew.

          • Snow

            What exactly is anti-Semitic about the comment above?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you claim that that laundry list of abuse against Jews isn’t Anti-Semitic. I see.

            Moreover, you’re arguing with the advice to not giving your personal details to random people on the internet. Why do you think this is a good idea, again?

            (Share yours, if you’re so inclined, I’m not an idiot myself)

          • Snow

            As I expected you had no answer to my question. Again you are inventing conspiracies

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you claim it’s a conspiracy thaty you posted a laundry list of abuse there…nope, you did it, as you claim your denial is “no answer”.

          • Snow

            You have accused almost every single person you have trolled with anti-Semitism. Don’t you realise how that demeans the term anti-Semitism? Don’t you have any self respect and shame?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you claim I have not accused people of anti-Semitism. This is incorrect, as you try and prevent the proper use of the word, claiming that to apply it to you is magically somehow shameful.

            Your views were made plain. Ask your Stormfront buddies for help now you’ve accidentally given the game away, eh?

          • Snow

            So you’re falsely and libelously accusing me of being a member of an extremist group? How low will you go ?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you deny your posts, and I’m far above you so no worries.

          • Snow

            NO, why do you try to deceive by lying.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you deny your post. You were very clear, that you now accuse me of lying… is just another thing to add to your torrent of abusive names, check.

            The contention, people, remains my following CST advice not to share my details online with random strangers. Snow has an issue with that.

          • Snow

            Please do contact CST with a transcript of this conversation. They will more likely feel the need tpo protect others from your online trolling

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you think the CST is your sort of censor and Jewhater, check.
            Or rather, not think.

            As you take issue with the *advice* issued not to give details on the internet to random strangers.
            Your wanting personal details for Jewish people…well, the reasons are clear.

          • Tamerlane

            Perhaps he wants their details because he’s from the Labour Party and wants to persecute them.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, it’s unlikely he’s an infiltrator like you.

            (Feel free to provide evidence you’re not a right wing New Labourite)

          • Tamerlane

            Precisely.

            Cluck. Cluck.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Mr. Cluck-Ken, your hero got suspended. When you slip and reveal your views so will you be. That’s what Corbyn’s instigated, and I’m fine with that stance.

          • Tamerlane

            Institutionally anti-Semitic Labour Party suspends anti-Semitic member. It’s like alcoholics barring an alcoholic for being an alcoholic. So much entertainment.
            Keep clucking anti-Semite.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            The Labour party you blame for your views, as you scream because I oppose Anti-Semites like you, as you blame me for your cluck-Ken spam…

            Like your far right buddy who pushed an old lady here last night. Who you’re defending, as he’s not Labour (he’s, in fact, BDP)

          • Tamerlane

            Cluck. Cluck. Move along anti-Semite, go spread your poison elsewhere.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, those Jews like me who you demand share your views, the “poison” you want to purge just like your thugs. Physically assaulting people for being Jewish, you cluck-Ken support it.

          • Zaba

            There are sudden openings in the Labour party, perfect for you!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I appear to be a moderate leftist, yes, unlike you.

          • Snow

            Seems you have a teen crush on Tom Cruise and watched Minority Report once too often with a sticky remote

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I am not the person in your mirror.

          • Snow

            That’s a pretty pathetic retort Leon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Facts are pathetic? Who knew!

          • Snow

            Even more feeble.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I’m sure you are. The fact remains I’m not you and your issues.

          • Snow

            Hardly worth replying to Leon – he’s bordering on needing to be sectioned

          • Ingmar Blessing

            I feel a little pity for him.

          • Snow

            Leon, paranoia
            ˌparəˈnɔɪə/
            noun
            a mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution, or exaggerated self-importance, typically worked into an organized system. It may be an aspect of chronic personality disorder, of drug abuse, or of a serious condition such as schizophrenia in which the person loses touch with reality.
            synonyms: persecution complex, delusions, obsession, megalomania, monomania; psychosis
            unjustified suspicion and mistrust of other people.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Thanks for confessing here.
            And?

          • Snow

            Feeble, pathetic retort

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “Feeble, pathetic retort”

            And yet you made it. Don’t worry, you can blame your paranoia.

          • Snow

            Leon, you really need to get some help

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ffar right thugs have failed to kill me in the past, and you’ll do no better with said “help”.

          • Tamerlane

            I wouldn’t worry about far right thugs if I were you it’s the Labour Party who have it in for the Jews. They’re the ones you want to watch out for.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Don’t worry about the actual thugs, you say, look at the people who maybe there’s a few people who might make faces at me, right. (And oh look, the idiots who said things have been suspended)

            Your fellow traveller thugs are very real, and you’re endorsing them actions – violence against people for just being Jewish. That’s nothing to worry about, you say.

          • Tamerlane

            Cluck. Cluck.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, you’re a Cluck-Ken spammer.

            Incidentally, I’m for far harsher sentences for UCE. Not for your sort of advocating violence though, just for the police publishing your name as you’re clearly all piss and wind on the internet.

          • Tamerlane

            I don’t know what UCE is, but I love you’re now justifying yourself to me. Didn’t take long.
            Cluck. Cluck.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You don’t know your business, as yoy love your hate fantasies about Jews, check, as you cluck-Ken your defense of Livingston over and over.

          • Tamerlane

            I’m off to bed. You keep goose stepping around your living room in your underpants Herr Leon if it makes you feel better. Don’t trip over that riding crop now!

            Cluck. Cluck.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you get confused and think I’m you, cluck-Ken.

            That’s sad. I just hope you won’t get too many people hurt in your frenzy.

      • logdon

        I think that was the subtext for not one arrest on the day of the Cartoon Demos.

        A sample of what was on display amongst all the threats of death was

        ‘You’ll go crawling when the muhajadeen comes roaring’.

        Or

        ‘We’ll invade Denmark and take your wives as war booty’.

        A secure unit should have been the minimum.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Your right wing’s posters…

          • logdon

            No sh*t Sherlock?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And yet your posts (and banners) exist.

      • boultonzz .

        I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, they are a religious Mafia.

    • Migru Ghee

      If this was the case then that would constitute a serious matter in my opinion.
      I always wondered why Damaris and her Tommy Ribena advert crowd left so suddenly and without prior notice. Rat identifiers like myself will smell Large Sumatran Bamboo.

    • eat your greens

      Summertime
      And the living is ea-say
      Leftards are jumping
      and Obama is high.

    • Maureen Fisher

      Islamophobia. I dislike most of the tenets of Islam especially the misogyny and homophobia.
      Therefore I’m a proud “Islamophobe.”

      • RightThinkingMan

        Then you should dislike the Tory party!

        • Maureen Fisher

          Funny how the Tory Party legislated for gay marriage or have you forgotten?

          • RightThinkingMan

            Half of them voted against gay marriage. Funny how don’t rant against the homophobes in Tory party. Not the sharpest ginsu knife in the set are we? But then, hypocrisy is your middle name. Go on, have some courage – go into a muslim part of town and tell them what you think But of course, you are a coward! Even the EDL have more balls than the cowards like you

          • Maureen Fisher

            You’re barely coherent today. How many cans of Tennants lager have been downed?

          • RightThinkingMan

            Funny how half the Tory MPs voted against it! But then Murray doesn’t attacks the Tory party. Fancy that!

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Yes, they’re competition for you, quite.
        (In your mind)

        • Maureen Fisher

          Leon, I will give you all the attention you need one day, just not right now.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Thanks for the threat.

    • David Prentice

      Accountability? The BBC does a neat trick of blaming the actions of civilian-murdering Muslims on this thing called “radicalization”. Apparently, from what I can gather, once the BBC invokes this magical word, the individual Muslim bears little or no responsibility for his actions. The next attack on UK civilians is in the post and when it happens, remember Muslims aren’t to blame and Islam doesn’t have any fundamental problems. No, it’s all down to this nasty “radicalized” business.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Funny, nobody died there.
        Your evidence is lacking.

        • Snow

          It was reported in every newspaper that Cage claimed the reason why Jihadi John became radicalised was because he claimed MI5 were harassed him. But it does not surprise me you don’t know that.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you’re blaming the BBC for the newspapers reporting something Cage claimed.
            And then expect this to be taken seriously, as you make a wild claim you can wipe information from minds across the internet.

            But of course, idiots can claim all sorts of wild things. Like harassment from MI5, or telepathic powers, or…

          • Snow

            So you’re inventing stories and putting words in people’s mouths and expect yourself to be take seriously.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I don’t follow your practices, as you spin your conspiracy theories.

          • Snow

            YES, you’re inventing stories & putting words in people’s mouths and not just me

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I am not making your posts, I am not one of your usernames. Geez.

          • Snow

            Tell me Leon, since you loathe and despise centre right main stream media, why do you go on the online comments section of the Spectator?

            To deliberately troll and provoke a reaction because you hate yourself?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you project what I think and believe… as you expect me to share your self-loathing, check.

        • Snow

          Jihadi John was evis cerated by a 4ell phire missile. Hilarious point that’s been reported is that all these British Jihadis in R’aqqa have sore necks as every time they go outside they are looking for drones in the sky.

          • Snow

            Those 4ell phire missiles have vaped quite a few of those terrorists, and hopefully many more

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Funny, but nothing to do with my point, right.

          • Snow

            Everything to do with the point

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So why do you think it relates?

          • Snow

            If you don’t know already that’s tragic, but does not surprise me

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So it’s tragic I don’t have your conspiracy theory which links unrelated things, I see.
            So do you also believe in the ZOG?

          • Snow

            No, it’s your conspiracy theory, stop twisting the truth

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You’ve refused to say why unrelated things are related, and then are blaming me for your issues.

      • Snow

        Furthermore the BBC blames radicalisation on Britain’s “foreign policy” and / or MI5 for “harassing” young Muslims who are only curious when they go online to find out how to make a pipe bomb from a pressure cooker and fertiliser..

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Your blaming Muslims…

      So, as you’re responsible in your theory for Brevik…

      • Snow

        You’re completely incoherent. Time to kick the weed habit

        • Leon Wolfeson

          I don’t have your issues, as you make excuses for Brevik. Your theory, your belief.

          • Snow

            At least spell his name right when showing your ignorance

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, the ignorance of facts.

          • Snow

            No, the ignorance of spelling someone’s name wrong

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Great, Spow. And I care why? The facts remain.

          • Snow

            If you like being a pond hopping low brow ignoramus and it fits, that figures

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I am not like you.

      • Zaba

        It’s far easier to act as if critics of Islam have a problem with Muslims as people than it is to accept the uncomfortable truth that Islam is different.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          The truth is that you’re the one here who is different, who believes in thought crime theory. Like other fanatics.

    • Benji0804

      The same reason blacks are not held accountable for there actions “racism” and colonialism.

    • Tara Connor

      —if Muslims get control of all govt., youre not going to get any control over their actions.

  • D J

    An ocean,an ocean,my kingdom for an ocean!

  • Zalacain

    Extremist Muslims stand on the shoulders of moderate Muslims.

    The 2013 Pew Research Centre poll reported “88% of Muslims in Egypt and 62% of Muslims in Pakistan favour the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion.”

    That’s just ordinary people, imagine what the extremists support.

    • Hybird

      That’s just the ones who admitted it, of course.

      • Snow

        That has as an official name in the science of polling “social desirability bias”.

        “tendency of survey respondents to answer questions in a manner that will be viewed favorably by others. The tendency poses a serious problem with conducting research with self-reports, especially questionnaires. This bias interferes with the interpretation of average tendencies as well as individual differences.’

        Now imagine a situation in which it would be most pronounced: A minority population with an ideology with extremist views, the most extreme individuals of which have slaughtered hundreds of the majority in those countries in a series of brutal attacks for 15 years or more, plus several mass gang rape incidents, the worst of which was described by an official govt report that 1400+ vulnerable girls as young as 11 years old were raped and gang raped for more than 10 years, and that it continues even today: Rotherham. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/leaders/article4344549.ece

        This social desirability bias is not mentioned much by the media when these polls are published.

        Odd that.

    • BTejon

      Islamist muslims want to cut off our heads. Moderate muslims might want Islamist muslims to cut off our heads.

  • Jacobi

    We have to assume there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. The evidence says so.

    Islam is at present engaged in one of many periodic assaults on the West. The objective is to include the West, and that includes UK , in Muslim Caliphate territory. In the past, Christian Europe has managed to hold them at the walls. This time they have been invited in and are continuing to flood in by the day.

    Wherever they settle they claim that territory as part of the Caliphate, whether silently in prayer or publicly as in the lead photograph. Yes, Westminster is now within the Caliphate so watch out!

    Each Muslim has a wide choice of how to bring this about, ranging from acceptable to downright repulsive.

    All such methods are orthodox Islam, and as such are permissible. But they all share the same objective, and that applies to the nice Muslim girls who wear western dress. Such “nice” Muslims differ from the fanatical mosque preachers only in preferred method.

    How we reverse this critical situation will be the main preoccupation of Western Europe
    over the next fifty to one hundred years.

    • Zaba

      The grading will be pass/fail.

  • Salman

    What a desperate attempt and joining into the scapegoating for the ignorant and foolish. Even the article’s date is made up! Either that or an underwhelming message from the future.

    • mark

      salmonella Bacteria

      • Salman

        Well, sir… Consider my words well and truly defeated.

        • Anna Bananahammok

          Your ideology will be defeated, make no mistake.
          Muslims have never won a war against anybody non Muslim. They can’t even destroy 7 Million Israelis, despite outnumbering them 2000:1

          • Hybird

            Unfortunately, Anna, they have. If they hadn’t then North Africa would be Christian as would what is now Turkey – and Istanbul would still be Constantinople.

          • Anna Bananahammok

            True, but won the last crusades?

    • Paul

      Which parts of the report are factually incorrect (apart from the date)?

    • Jacobi

      Or perhaps the beginning of a realisation of what we in the West have allowed inside the walls

    • dogwonder

      Scapegoating, nice try liberal but Islam and it’s army of barbarians have been waging war for 1400 years, at no time in history has Islam inspired great works of art, music, science or beauty. 60 percent of the Koran is literally incitement to commit violence and murder against the Jews and Kaffir-the truth hurts doesn’t it liberal?

    • Hameed

      ‘Kill Ahmadis’ leaflets found in UK mosque
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35928848

    • Hameed
    • putin

      “Even the article’s date is made up!”

      I think you’ll find that’s the date the magazine this article is printed in appears. Since you do not know this I question your judgment on other matters.

  • mark

    Actually NO, the musllims are fully aware that isis is copying the examples and teachings of muhamad, EXACTLY… muslims however ALL practice warfare lying, al taqiyya, kitman etc.

    The same as we call them muslim paedophile gangs, (rotherham, oxford, etc etc etc etc), but as far as the muslim community, imans, leaders etc are concerned its just muslims taking their legal under islam ‘right hand possessions’ SLAVES. all the muslims lie to hide that fact also..

    Moderates? – NON EXISTANT (except for the purpose of deception)

  • dogwonder

    The only difference between Moderate Islam and violent Islam is the moderates’ failure to uphold the command to kill the non-believers via the Koran. There is no such thing as moderate Islam, once it’s followers reach ten percent civilized nations are Balkanized and the so called moderates become religious fanatics.

  • Migru Ghee

    Why is the great Rod Liddle hiding his articles deep down in the dungeon-like depths of Spectator magazine?

  • Central power

    Immigration from the Islamic countries will be stopped by Brexit as predicted by Gove, Farrage and the Grimm Brothers. But seriously – just look at most (for example) Birmingham schools. Imported wives and husbands get UK citizenship (nothing to do with any EU edict). Once these new UK “nationals” have the said citizenship – they are free to divorce and then import further husbands and wives and produce a half a dozen of descendants on the way. Great future awaits us under HM’s 13th PM.

    • jeffersonian

      In an ideal world stopping M*slim, and indeed all non-skilled, immigration (according to a points-system) would only be the first step. Repatriation would have to be next.

    • LittleRedRidingHood

      Not for many years. It will take a decade to extricate us from the EU. There will be open civil disorder long before we are finally free of the shackles.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Yes, of course you’ll cause trouble…as you flee those evil worker rights, regardless of the British people’s will…

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          I see you are another of the dumbed down sheeple buying into the government propaganda.
          It must have been tough having your nuts taken from you at such an early age. The nanny state has looked after you for far too long Leon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I am not you, as you want the 99% to be punished because of your views check…your raging hate of workers rights goes on, capitalist.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Oh dear oh dear. And what exactly will happen to these workers rights that we are bound to by law?
            Will they magically disappear overnight, or will you consider that you may have been taken in by project fear propoganda.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your right have been quite vocal.

            And no, I haven’t fallen for your propaganda. I’m aware of things like the falls in paid holidays before the EU law on this, etc.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Any evidence? Or did you”just hear”? If anything paid holidays have fallen while we have been in the EU as the large corporates try to harmonise contracts reducing people’s package. It’s happening in the banks, local authories, goverment ministries and many many others.
            So stop talking absolute shyte you ridiculous fool.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you deny the evidence and lie about the way holidays have changed, check.

            You say that rise is fall, and to say anything else is..to be like you.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Idiot!
            How is it a lie? 30 days down to 28 for many people in my workplace. Also contracts changed in DWP affecting pensions etc. That’s without getting into the zero hour contract issue, where any dissent are you are liable to have a 365 day holiday forced on you.
            You just talk drivel with no tangible facts to back you up. You are a busted flush my friend.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Oh, so you slashed it in your workplace for your staff, right. And you’re claiming it was 30 days before the EU directives, even. And trying to fool me that this is representative.

            (Then some stuff about pensions…when the topic was holiday hours…)

            As you note your right’s beloved 0-hour contracts.
            You must love the ability to silence dissent, right, fits neatly into your ideology after all.

            As you deny my posts, and talk to yourself, admitting your poor card hand in a completely tangential aside…your ability to lose to yourself at solitaire is amusing, but…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            No I provided concrete examples which You seem unable to refute. You on the other hand provide purile nonsense.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You provided anecdote of a single case of what you claim you did.

            As you say facts are puerile nonsense.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            What I did? I wish words would fail you as much as they fail me at the moment.

  • Uusikaupunki

    There are no “moderate” Muslims, and there are no “extremist” Muslims. There are merely patient Muslims and there are impatient Muslims……

    • jeffersonian

      Very well put.

    • ossettian

      “We’re winning demographically: don’t risk them realising what’s happening.”

    • Montrealgirl

      As one of the Taliban (I believe) said in regards to NATO, we have all of the watches but they have all of the time.

      • hogsnort

        Wasn’t it the other way around?

        • Montrealgirl

          You are right. My mistake! Since edited!

    • RightThinkingMan

      There are no moderate Christians – ask the Bosnian muslims about moderation!

  • sfin

    The problem lies, as so often, in terminology. In this case “moderate” and “extremist”. These terms cannot be applied to a people that are fundamentally different from us and whose societal norms are completely incompatible with our own.

    As that great muslim “moderate” Erdogan (the one that ‘Dave’ is so keen to be admitted into the EU – you know, the one that’s just pressurised Germany into prosecuting one of its satirists for dissing him.) once said:

    “Their is no “moderate” Islam, their is only Islam.

    • Discuscutter

      In fairness to many Islamic leaders and groups they never hide what they are about or believe.

      • sfin

        Excellent point!

        It takes the left and their utopian, “I believe in Santa Claus” view of the world, to distort it and create the damage, in our societies that they do.

      • Zaba

        memri.org for many translated examples.

  • Wildcat Grumman
    • putin

      To our elites we’re all just homogeneous plebians.

  • Uusikaupunki

    “Breaking news…..
    Muslim community worried about Islamophobic backlash after tomorrows train bomb…..”

  • ossettian

    A moderate Muslim is one surrounded by 99 non-Muslims.

    • Birtles

      No, that sounds more like a suicide bomber.

  • Badger

    Show me a moderate, and I’ll show you an apostate.

    • RightThinkingMan

      I presume you are talking about Christianity. How many did the religion of “peace” kill in Iraq?

      • Badger

        Did I cross your bridge?

  • MikeH

    Great title photo.

    The first in a series of reciprocal inter-religious sessions. Next round, Christian prayers from Islamabad moving onto to favourite hymns broadcast live from Riyadh.

  • Discuscutter

    Moderate and mainstream Islam is further to the right on many issues than even Franco’s Spain.

    • Birtles

      Franco’s Spain stayed in Spain (a couple of years on the Eastern Front notwithstanding). Franco’s Spain wasn’t after ‘converting’ the whole of Europe to Francoism.

      • Seeker

        Too, most of Spain’s Condor Legion was made up of committed Falangists ( Spanish Fascists). Franco, an old-fashioned authoritarian reactionary, thought that element of his coalition was full of dangerous radicals, and packed them off to the Eastern Front , to get rid of them.

        He hated enthusiasm.

  • plainsdrifter

    Muslims. Don’t ya love ’em.

    • Dacorum

      Cameron certainly does!

  • Ingmar Blessing

    This is off topic but I feel the urge to inform you about an Islamic terror attack in Germany. Strangely the German media doesn’t find it worthy to report thoroughly about it beyond a short news update in the fine-print. And now that Prince died, they haver more important issues to tell about.

    I guess, the British media doesn’t take much interest in German matters outside of our media box.

    *putting on media hat*

    As it seems two 16 year old IS fanboys threw a bomb at a Sikh marriage ceremony on Wednesday night in Essen. No-one got killed, three men are injured. Both terrorists were known Salafists and also criminals. One got caught yesterday, the second one today.

    • The Patriot
      • Ingmar Blessing

        thx! I’m going through the German mainstream web right now and so far I found one article..

        • The Patriot

          Disgusting isn’t it, what’s being hidden by the elite..

          • RightThinkingMan

            Just like the mass rape by white men in Blue Water. When will white man like you stop raping innocent women. I see you haven’t apologised. As ever, I guess you are a apologist tor the rapes done by white men

          • GYLFI EIKEN EINARSSON

            Clever. I see what you you did there. your favourite &only argument. ..2 wrongs make a right ? You singlehandedly fixed the problem ,so go back to sleep (&just shut up)

          • RightThinkingMan

            No one cares what someone in the Nordics thinks. You people are irrelevant.

          • GYLFI EIKEN EINARSSON

            No,actually.we are relevant,with relevant arguments,from the relevant continent. you are just trolling irrelevant nonsense. i’m guessing you are not even european.so that means you’re irrelevant

          • Cyril Sneer

            I don’t think he even qualifies as human.

    • RightThinkingMan

      I want to tell you about a mass gang rape near Blue Water that no one is reporting on . Committed by white male rapists like you.

      • Gregory Carlin

        Being white is a race you idiot!

        Islam is a code, a series of rules, you adopt it.

        Also, some of those rules say that it’s ok to rape

        • RightThinkingMan

          Another white man not apologising for the mass rape by white men. No doubt you agree with it? Are you a rapist?

          • Gregory Carlin

            You’re an idiot who strawmans arguments.

            White=race
            Islam=religion

          • RightThinkingMan

            again, refusing to apologise for the rapes by white menT typical of the white male raping ideology! Have you ever been a rapist yourself?

          • Anna Bananahammok

            You are obsessed with rape- a typical mudslime!

          • Gregory Carlin

            Of course. Since I converted to Islam. I mean, I don’t fancy rape, but with muslims…it’s kinda our thing

      • Ingmar Blessing

        Have they done it in the name of a religion which allows and demands them to do it? Do they want to overthrow the government with any means necessary? Are they backed by rich and lunatic governments which live by the standards of the same religion?

        If not: Treat them as what they are, sexual perverts and ruthless criminals.

      • Cyril Sneer

        So it isn’t only you that is a rapist.

        • RightThinkingMan

          I am not rapist! Though of course, you condone it

    • Mr Grumpy

      There seems to me to be more coverage in the German media than you suggest. I see there’s a suggestion that the attackers may have thought the Sikhs were Hindus, which would confirm once again that IS and co. tend not to attract the sharpest knives in the drawer.

      Nothing from the BBC on the other hand, though of course the Lutz Bachmann trial is covered. Hate speech matters more than bombs.

  • Nick

    Excellent article Rod Liddle.

    But let’s not worry as Mr.Cameron,who said that he wants to see a muslim UK Prime Minister one day,will save us.

    • Mongo

      I wouldn’t be surprised if Dhimmi Dave actually converts to Islam soon

    • Callan

      I would like to sit Cameron down and make him watch the observations of Pat Condell on the muslim takeover of Europe and how its leaders are sleepwalking to disaster. They are all on YouTube. Or Paul Weston’s excellent speech in the USA where he outlined how political correctness is allowing the spread of muslim extremism in this country particularly, with the indigenous population cowed into silence by the fear of prosecution should anyone have the temerity to object. I would then smack him over the head with a copy of Melanie Phillips’ book Londonistan.

      • Nick

        And after you had shown all those valid points to Cameron,he would still insist that islam is the religion of peace.

  • Dacorum

    “There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it” President Erdogan

    Our liberal leaders are deluding themselves because there is no “moderate” Islam. There is only Islam and that represents a real and present danger to all non Muslims and also to Muslims that Islamists regard as apostates, like the late Mr Asad Khan who wished Christians a Happy Easter.

    • “A$AP” GOAT

      Keep telling yourself that.

    • RightThinkingMan

      There is no moderate Christianity – ask the 800k dead Iraqis killed by….Prez Bush

      • Gregory Carlin

        Where did Jesus say that you have to kill people? Isn’t he the “turn the other cheek” guy?

        America, by LAW, is not a Christian country. It is actually illegal for them to act because of the Bible. Nice try

        • RightThinkingMan

          Clearly Bush didn’t follow Jesus then! Again, white men kill – then its ok!

          • Anna Bananahammok

            Better kill you first, before you kill us!
            Remember who won the last crusades, Mo.

          • Gregory Carlin

            Wel…only if the targets are brown, part of a death cult, and married to their 6 year old cousin. Then it’s ok. OH wait no….
            We don’t kill them….we give them welfare

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh dear – did you read about the gang rape in Kent by white men – you know white men like you. Probably on welfare or a loser like you. Why do white men like you rape so often?

          • Gregory Carlin

            Well we are competitive, we want to beat the muslim record. Well…maybe that’s not a good idea. We aren’t fond of camel urine and plastic explosives.
            Still, nice beards…..nope…those suck too.

          • RightThinkingMan

            So you agree with rape?! Wow, at least you are honest?! what a nasty little person you are to approve of the rape of women. typical of Spectator reader – boorish, bigoted middle mgmt. loser types

          • Gregory Carlin

            Just because I’m a muslim, it doesn’t mean that I rape. Most of us do. but I don’t. Just for that, I’m going to call you racist and demand welfare

          • Cyril Sneer

            You read the Spectator.

          • RightThinkingMan

            I have never bought the Spectator! I just read the blogs, its full of middle mgmt. losers. It can be fun but after all, its boring to listen to losers complain about their silly little lives

      • Dacorum

        As it happens I have always opposed the US led invasion of Iraq but, in the context of your point, did “Prez Bush” intimidate, try and forcibly convert, kidnap, kill or drive out the Sunni population of Iraq? The answer is a clear “NO” but that is exactly what the Sunnis have done to the Christian minority of Iraq.

        IS stands for Islamic State – they follow the teachings of their prophet Mohammed as set out in the Koran, Hadith and Sira and they expect everyone to follow the 5 pillars of the faith, just like they believe every Muslim should. We call them extremists but they argue that they are the true Muslims because they closely follow the teachings of their Prophet and his calls for jihad against all non Muslims and other Muslims they regard as apostates. The danger to us all is in the teachings in the Koran, Hadith and Sira – these are a call for our destruction.

        • RightThinkingMan

          When are you going to apologise? As ever, no such thing as “moderate Christian” – some rubbish the Christians dream up to justify the mass murder of others. Bush didn’t need to convert anyone, he murdered them in cold blood. No point converting a person when you can shoot them in the head. That’s what the so called moderate Christians believe! Ugh !

          • Dacorum

            I see you miss the point of reply completely so there is no point in continuing this exchange with you.

          • Anna Bananahammok

            “When are you going to apologise” ROTFWL!!

            Your parents must be siblings.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Still the coward – didn’t see you in London over weekend spouting your hatred. too much of a COWARD! Love the spectator writers. Cowards to man and woman. Too scared to say anything in public! Lovely just the way it should be

      • Anna Bananahammok

        All you Mohammeds kill far more Muslims, than Bush ever could.
        Thank goodness.

        • RightThinkingMan

          Oh err – go to London and say that loudly! Oh I forgot! Chicken. Yellow chicken!

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Islam is not like your ideology.

  • King Zog

    “This story ran next to a quite astonishing tale about a bear discovered defecating in some woodland.”

    And a Pope being Catholic. Oh no, wait…

    • RightThinkingMan

      Or the fact that Pops have turned a blind eye to mass rape of kids by Catholic papist priests!

      • Bad Lad

        And?

      • Cyril Sneer

        Ok, so what you’re saying is that when you and your muslim friends rape kids then it’s fine.

        • RightThinkingMan

          I notice you don’t condemn the Catholic rape! Papist are we?

  • Zaba

    Mark Steyn: We’re being “softened up for an Islamic sharia state”

    Steyn notes that by forbidding ordinary people from speaking openly about Islam’s threat to the West,
    censors are making it easier for a sharia state to eventually take over in Europe and beyond.

    http://www.therebel.media/mark_steyn_we_re_being_softened_up_for_an_islamic_sharia_state

  • Zaba

    “If more Muslims actually understood what was in the quran, they would leave Islam,”
    says Somali woman

    Mona Walter, a Somali-born ex-Muslim (like Ayaan Hirsi Ali) lives under death threats and sometimes travels with police protection.

    But she is on a mission to teach Muslims the raw truth about Islam.

    http://www.barenakedislam.com/2016/02/11/if-more-muslims-actually-understood-what-was-in-the-quran-they-would-leave-islam-says-somali-woman/

  • Richard Lutz

    Indonesia is a Muslim majority nation that is democratic but does not engage in murderous wars of aggression (e.g., 2003 invasion of Iraq) and has a lower murder rate than the UK according to Wikipedia – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate You might also like to remember that treating people like the enemy is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    • Zaba

      Child Brides: Why Parents Force Their Underage Girls To Wed In Indonesia

      Indonesia has among the highest number of child brides in the world

      

There are two factors that would drive a family to turn their daughter into a child bride.

      First is the fear that she would commit Zina, which can loosely be translated as the sinful sexual acts outside marriage. Research done by Jurnal Perempuan states that parents tend to push their underage girls into marriage due to the fear of Zina.

      http://www.blazingcatfur.ca/2016/04/21/child-brides-why-parents-force-their-underage-girls-to-wed-in-indonesia/

      • Richard Lutz

        Thanks for the links.

        You do know that illegal child marriages occur in the UK don’t you? – http://www.plan-uk.org/because-i-am-a-girl/early-and-forced-marriage/child-marriage-in-the-uk/ It is illegal for children to marry in the UK, as is the case in Indonesia where the laws states that the minimum age for marriage is 16 (for females) and 19 (for males).

        According to a study cited on the Wikipedia page about child marriage, about 4.1% of all girls in the 15-19 age group in the UK were cohabiting – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage#United_Kingdom Cohabitation amounts to common-law marriage.

        Last time I looked both male and female juveniles can marry at the age of 16 with court approval in England, Wales, Canada, New Zealand and Australia (and many other Western nations) even though these qualify as “child marriages” to the United Nations as they are under 18.

        In closing, did you know that both men and women can have consensual sexual relationships with both male and female children aged just 13 years of age in Spain? Is that why so many British people travel to Spain?

        • Zaba

          Apparently, as you note, widespread.
          The difference is that in islam, their ‘most perfect human ever’
          married a six year old.
          Thus the behavior is authorized.
          Pakistan set it’s marriage age to nine, the same age as when mohammad
          raped his ‘bride’.

          • Richard Lutz

            Too true, though I don’t believe the Quran explicitly condones child marriage any more than the Bible does (no minimum age set in either case); while it should be said that some notable men in the Bible and Christianity married girls we would consider underage today.

          • JohnJ

            You Wikiidiot – do you know anything about Islam. A basis to all Sunni Muslims is Mohammed’s life. They want to emulate it as it was perfect. Check out what he did to a 9 year old girl. Read the Quran and the Life of the Prophet before you comment on Islam. Yep that’s right Muslim practice is NOT recorded in Wikipedia. Got the East London and ask a few Deobandis, then report back.

          • alfredo

            Examples? Shameless whataboutery anyway.

          • 1e2c3a4w5

            Please widen your understanding of Islamic scriptures. Many things are not mentioned in the Koran but which are sacralised by being part of the Sunnah, the example of Mohammed, which is to be found in the Hadiths and the Sira (biographies of Mohammed). Here are some highlights from the earliest surviving biography written by a devout follower of Mohammed (although you could be forgiven for assuming it was written by an enemy):

            https://ecawblog.wordpress.com/2015/09/16/ibn-ishaq/

          • Zaba

            the Quran explicitly condones mohammad the pedophile as ‘most perfect human ever’.

    • Hameed

      You call this moderate?
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKAWVbsx5hY

      As for Indonesia’s murder rate lower than UK I presume religious lynchings are not really murder are they, in Indonesia speak?

      • JohnJ

        Allahu Akbar – yep “my God is greatest”

    • JohnJ

      When did you go there last, fool, Been to Aceh?
      http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/04/21/first-non-muslim-lashed-breaking-sharia-law-indonesian-province/83325572/
      It is changing rapidly. See what happened in Bali. “Treating people like the enemy” – who is doing that? Islam is the enemy. Muslims believe a mishmash of Islam. When people call out Allahu Akbar as they kill innocents around the world, yes around the worrld, then it is time we all found out.

      • RightThinkingMan

        Really – ask Bush and Blair – how many did they kill? Oh were they Christians

        • JohnJ

          so? What is your point?

    • Mr Grumpy

      I beg your pardon? Indonesia’s, er, murderous war of aggression in East Timor killed at least 10% of its overwhelmingly Christian population.

      • Dacorum

        Richard Lutz isn’t very bright, is he?

        The Indonesians committed genocide in East Timor and yet he says Indonesia does not engage in murderous wars of aggression.

        He also seems to have no recollection of the Indonesian massacre of very large numbers of the ethnic Chinese community in 1965-6.

      • Richard Lutz

        Good point, though it should be said this occurred before Indonesia became a democracy.

  • “How moderate are moderate Muslims?”

    There are only two types of Muslims:

    (1) Muslims who are enjoined upon damnation to never kill civilians, including non-believers, and take prisoners; and

    (2) Marxists pretending to be Muslim, who naturally perform all sorts of peculiar mutilations on civilians and prisoners, as first encountered by Lenin’s low-intellect Bolsheviks/Red Guards/Red Army.

    The so-called ‘War on Terror’ is an operation being carried out by the Marxist co-opted governments of the West in alliance with the USSR and other Communist nations, the purpose being to (1) destroy the prominence of the West in the eyes of the world, where the West is seen (i) invading nations without cause; (ii) causing chaos around the globe; and (iii) killing over one-million civilians and boasting of torture; (2) close off non-Russian supplies of oil for export, thereby increasing the price of oil, the higher price allowing oil exporting Russia to maintain economic stability while she modernizes and increases her military forces; (3) destroy the United States Armed Forces via the never-ending ‘War on Terror’; the ultimate purpose of the aforementioned to (4) bring about the demise of the United States in the world, opening up a political void to be filled by a new pan-national entity composed of Europe and Russia (replacing the European Union), a union ‘From the Atlantic to Vladivostok’;* which will (5) see the end of NATO.

    The fraudulent ‘collapse’ of the USSR (and East Bloc) couldn’t have been pulled off until both political parties in the United States (and political parties elsewhere in the West) were co-opted by Marxists, which explains why verification of the ‘collapse’ was never undertaken by the West, such verification being (1) a natural administrative procedure (since the USSR wasn’t occupied by Western military forces); and (2) necessary for the survival of the West. Recall President Reagan’s favorite phrase, “Trust, but verify”.

    It gets worse–the ‘freed’ Soviets and West also never (1) de-Communized the Soviet Armed Forces of its Communist Party officer corps, which was 90% officered by Communist Party members; and (2) arrested/de-mobilized the five million vigilantes that assisted the Soviet Union’s Ministry of the Interior and police control the populations of the cities during the period of ‘Perestroika’ (1986-1991)!

    There can be no collapse of the USSR (or East Bloc nations) without…

    Verification, De-Communization and De-mobilization.

    The West never verified the collapse of the USSR because no collapse occurred, since if a real collapse had occurred the West would have verified it, since the survival of the West depends on verification. Conversely, this proves that the political parties of the West were co-opted by Marxists long before the fraudulent collapse of the USSR, since the survival of the West depends on verification.

    The following are two discoveries (discovered in April 2015) regarding the Yugoslav ‘civil wars’ and ‘collapse’ of the USSR, and what they prove regarding the Marxist co-option of the West’s political establishments**…

    (I) Communist control of Yugoslavia ‘civil wars’…

    Secessionist Yugoslav Orthodox, Catholic and Muslim factions waged dirty wars against each other, neglecting to first wipe out the 9% of the population that attempted to do away with religion in Yugoslavia, proving the wars were orchestrated and controlled by the communist faction. That 9% constitutes members of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Communists_of_Yugoslavia

    …the Marxist party that subjugated Yugoslavia from 1945 until the party’s dissolution in January 1990. Before any religious sectarian strife, first there would have been massive reprisals against the reviled Communists who implemented policies to wipe out religion in Yugoslavia. The fact that no such reprisals took place proves that the breakup of Yugoslavia, during the Yugoslav Wars (1991-2001), was manufactured and controlled by the Communists; and

    (II) Not one celebration throughout the USSR when the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Soviet_of_the_Soviet_Union

    …dissolved the USSR on December 26, 1991…

    When Soviet citizens were liberated from up to 74 years of horrific Marxist-atheist oppression on December 26, 1991, the day the USSR officially ended, there were zero celebrations throughout the USSR, proving (1) the ‘collapse’ of the USSR is a strategic ruse; and (2) the political parties of the West were already co-opted by Marxists, otherwise the USSR (and East Bloc nations) couldn’t have gotten away with the ruse.

    Zero celebrations, as the The Atlantic article inadvertently informs us…

    http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2011/12/20-years-since-the-fall-of-the-soviet-union/100214/

    Notice, however, the Kremlin staged anti-government demonstrations that took place in Russia (and other Soviet republics) in the years immediately preceding the ‘dissolving’ of the USSR, yet zero celebrations after the USSR was ‘dissolved’. Also notice that there’s not one picture in The Atlantic retrospective of the celebrations that took place when individual Soviet republics broke away from the USSR throughout 1991, declaring their independence from the USSR. That’s because such inclusions would make one wonder where’s the celebrations for the ‘dissolving’ of the USSR.

    For more on these discoveries, see my blog…

    https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/

    Conclusion:

    The West will form new political parties where candidates are vetted for Marxist ideology, the use of the polygraph to be an important tool for such vetting. Then the West can finally liberate the globe of vanguard Communism.

    ————————-
    * ‘Russia is an inalienable and organic part of Greater Europe and European civilization. Our citizens think of themselves as Europeans. We are by no means indifferent to developments in united Europe.

    That is why Russia proposes moving toward the creation of a common economic and human space from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean – a community referred by Russian experts to as “the Union of Europe,” which will strengthen Russia’s potential and position in its economic pivot toward the “new Asia.”’ – Vladimir Putin (2012).

    https://www.rt.com/politics/official-word/putin-russia-changing-world-263/

    ** The failed socialist inspired and controlled pan-European revolutions that swept the continent in 1848(1) taught Marxists and socialists a powerful lesson, that lesson being they couldn’t win overtly,(2) so they adopted the tactic of infiltration of the West’s political parties/institutions. In the case of the United States…(continue reading at DNotice)…

    https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/now-you-see-me-now-you-don-t

    • Zaba

      There are only two types of Muslims:

      No

      islam:
      one book
      one ummah

      • “There are only two types of Muslims:

        No

        islam:
        one book
        one ummah”

        If you had read past #1 you wouldn’t have felt the need to tell my that obvious fact.

        Now read the rest of my comment…

  • Zaba

    To prove the moderate muzlim is not a complete myth, check out:

    The American Islamic Forum for Democracy’s (AIFD) mission is to advocate for the preservation of the founding principles of the United States Constitution, liberty and freedom, through the separation of mosque and state.

    The man behind this is Zhudi Jasser.

    M. Zuhdi Jasser, M.D. is the Founder and President of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy (AIFD) and is the author of A Battle for the Soul of Islam: An American Muslim Patriot’s Fight to Save His Faith (Simon & Schuster, June 2012). On March 20, 2012, Dr. Jasser was appointed by Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) to the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) where he currently serves as a Commissioner.

    http://aifdemocracy.org

    Jasser has a handful of ‘followers’ and no masjid supports his efforts.

    • Gregory Carlin

      There is no moderate muslim. If you are a true muslim, you follow Mohamed, and Muhamed was a rapist, pedophile warlord.
      If you are peaceful, you are not a muslim. Only Mohamed can say who is a true muslim, and he says that only those who follow his example are true muslims.

    • 1e2c3a4w5

      The fact, as you mention, that “Jasser has a handful of ‘followers’ and no masjid supports his efforts” shows the movement to be negligible.

  • Hameed

    Easy ‘moderate’ Muslim check; mention the word ‘Ahmadi’ and then see most ‘moderate’ Muslims fuming.

    This guys is an ‘interfaith relations’ MBE;

    ‘Kill Ahmadis’ leaflets found in UK mosque
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35928848

    • Zaba

      All about who is and who is not ‘on the straight path’.

      • Hameed

        But incitement to kill, and in UK? That’s a whole different dimension.

        • Mr Grumpy

          And published by a registered charity! You couldn’t make it up.

  • trekker2002

    As a family I recall having this debate in a pizza restaurant about 9 years ago, with our then 16 year old son. We always have been a family who know how to enjoy ourselves. The essence of my argument was that ‘moderate’ was a pretty useless word unless you had first defined the scale being used. I suggested some key questions that needed to be asked of any Muslim including whether they believed that the Quran was literally the ‘word of God’ and whether they accepted that everyone had freedom of speech, religion and equality under democratically determined laws. Until you knew their actual beliefs calling them a moderate was meaningless. After all with hindsight it could be said of the Nazis that the moderate ones just wanted to reduce the Jews to non citizens and deport them minus all their worldly goods, whereas the extremists wanted a more permanent solution. Neither type were moderates by our standards and in fact the extremist Nazis probably saw their fellows as dangerously liberal. The fate of Asad Shah illustrates clearly what can happen to a liberal member of a community in the face of extremists. When they came for the Ahmadis, I didn’t speak because I wasn’t an Ahmadi.

    Muslim institutions and spokespersons must now be challenged to define themselves on our scale. If many of them turn out not to be ‘moderate’ then at least those who are will feel supported by the challenge to the majority view and only by orthodoxies being challenged can they be changed.

    • JohnJ

      When you get down to history, Islam is all about reproduction.
      So a Moderate Muslim
      1. would allow their daughter to marry whoever she likes regardless of religion and her children can be what ever religion the parents (daughter and husband) decide on.
      2. would allow people to become non Muslim without any penalty
      3. would allow a Jew to worship in a Mosque.
      4. would welcome free and open debate about Mohammed and Islam ( including cartoons!)

      No chance…..but good luck – the above are the basis of a free Western society that produced wealth, safety and civilization – but rapidly going down the gurgler.

    • RightThinkingMan

      What like Catholics supporting the IRA and raping babies!

      • alfredo

        Not ‘like’ at all, unless Catholics are enjoined by their scriptures or even the Vatican to support terrorists and rape babies as a religious duty.

        • RightThinkingMan

          Martin McGuiness thought so!

          • Tom Allalone

            You really are very very stupid`- membership of the IRA was an offence for which you could be excommunicated. The Catholic Hierarchy in Britain and Ireland condemned terrorism on every occasion without reservation and Republicans loathed the Hierarchy. The IRA were a left wing nationalist movement which explains Protestants in their ranks. Non Muslim jihadis, on the other hand, are a bit of a contradiction in terms. Also, using exclamation marks at the end of sentences is a habit most of us grew out of by the age of about twelve. I’m surprised your Oxbridge tutors didn’t teach you this.

      • Gregory Carlin

        It doesn’t say that in the Bible. You can’t defend murderers, by poiting to other murderers. You are trying to muddy the waters.
        Does the Bible tell you to rape babies? No.
        Does the Koran tell you to rape and kill? Beyond a shadow of a doubt

        The founder had a 6-yeard old child bride, and he was a warlord.
        Jesus was a carpenter VIRGIN, who way praying for the people who were ripping his flesh from his back.
        Sure…..Islam is the same

        • RightThinkingMan

          As ever, white Christian not apologise for the mass rap by Papist priests – but then you agree with the mass rape by white Christian men – you are prob a rapist yourself. You fit the profile – white, middle class, a bit dim!

          • Anna Bananahammok

            Go blow yourself up inside a mosque, it’s the only thing you inbred cockroaches contribute to humanity.

          • Cyril Sneer

            I do believe the muzzies greatest contribution to humanity is the fact that they kill many of their own.

            It’s also one of life’s great tragedies that they don’t kill their own at a much much higher rate than they do now.

      • Bradley

        Muslims supporting Isis and raping children!

  • AlexanderGalt

    As Erdogan said: “Islam is Islam”. Our idea of a moderate is their idea of a non-believer. Good piece on how Muslim terrorists are in fact good Muslims. That’s why not even the highest Islamic authorities will dare to unambiguously condemn ISIS terrorists. Good piece on that at: http://john-moloney.blogspot.com/2015/12/good-muslims.html

  • Gregory Carlin

    Peaceful Muslims are ignoring their book. The only person who decides who is a Muslims, is Muhammad. He left specific instructions, and because he was a warlord, those instructions include rape and murder. Get over it, it’s the truth. That’s why groups like Isis print Koranic justifications for their actions, and that’s why muslims in the West can’t integrate.

    Muslims who say that terrorists or rapists are not religious, are lying through their teeth. Muhammad raped infant children, he did conquer and decapitate. AGAIN, these are facts, I don’t care about your feelings.

    • RightThinkingMan

      Just like those papist priests raped children! Just like those Christians – Bush and Blair killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq! I just read about a lady who was gangraped in Kent – probabaly white men like you.. AGAIN, these are the facts! I don’t care about your feelings. When are white men like you going to apologise for the rape of the Kent lady!

      • Bad Lad

        Yes indeed you lefties inflicted that murderous lunatic Blair on us. You can start by apologising for that.

        • RightThinkingMan

          I never voted for him. But answer the question, when are you going to apologise for Blair and Bush, both middle class white murderers? And the rape of the lady in Bluewater?

          • Bad Lad

            Never.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Ah – another apologist for rape and murder. At least you are honest

          • Bad Lad

            That is a lie as you know. I’m not concerned, you understand, as I like you to show yourself for what you are. I don’t excuse or apologise your vote for Blair and your support for neo-colonial wars which went predictably wrong. I don’t excuse or apologise for the rape of a woman in Bluewater. I don’t need to.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Mealy mouthed response of a white (dim) man who refuses to apologise for the rape of the Bluewater lady. When are white men like you going to take responsibility for the rape of that lady? Typical of the usual Christian response – sanctioning the rape of innocent women

          • Bad Lad

            Nonsense. Oh, your claim of being Oxbridge is let down by your poor grammar.

            I shan’t be apologising or doing anything at your behest. You are too stupid for further words.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Blaming the left for a Neoliberal right winger, check.

          Your hate for democracy, too…

          • Bad Lad

            Yes of course it was right wingers who voted for Blair, how right you are. Equally, my disdain for those who fell for his twaddle proves I hate democracy, course it does.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you whine about your post…as you ignore the trends in politics as of late…

          • Bad Lad

            Nope I point out your in truthfulness.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Hate is not “truthfulness”

            (You’re not even up with the current polls!)

      • Anna Bananahammok

        Nobody kills more muslims than other muslims, thankfully.
        Nobody rapes more than Muslims do, that’s why Islam has grown to 1.6 billion people in only 1400 years.
        Nobody has higher rates of illiteracy, inbreeding and warring.

        If you don’t like ‘white’ folks, I suggest you phack off to join your ‘brown’ friends in one of their wonderfully rape free and tolerant countries.

        • Gregory Carlin

          “Nobody kills more muslims than other muslims, thankfully.” They always use this excuse. The fact that muslims kill and rape everything with a pulse, is not an argument in their favor.

          Almost all gangsters are killed by other gangsters. That doesn’t make them better people. It’s a power struggle inside an imperialist ideology. You join this death cult, you can expect more violence than an Amish person.

        • RightThinkingMan

          What drivel – I notice you haven’t apologise for the rape in Bluewater – again probably because you support the rape of women by white men – typical of rapist like you!

          • Gregory Carlin

            Indeed brother. These white rapists keep raping. As if they were muslims. Only we and our pedophile prophet can do that. Inshallah

          • RightThinkingMan

            So you don’t abhor rape – Well, at least you are open about it. Time to join the papists – they study mass rape of children at the seminary!

          • Gregory Carlin

            You got it all wrong. I’m a muslim brother. I eat curry and marry my cousin just like you. Inshallah.

          • Cyril Sneer

            I bet you look in the mirror every day and wish you were white.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh – whats if like doing your silly job? What actually do you do? Prob accountant at some silly little firm. Or teacher at minor public school. Prob live in one of those nasty commuter towns outside London! Loser!

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Great, leave then.

          As you show your ignorance of stats, for starters.

      • Zalacain

        When faced with your stupidity and lack of logic it is difficult to know where to start.

        Being white is not a choice. Neither I, nor anybody else, has any responsibility for what another white person does, in the same way as you are not held responsible for the actions of other men, just because you are a man.
        Islam, however, is an ideology, and people are asked about the acts of people who share their beliefs.
        Blair invaded Iraq against the wishes of most people in this country and Bush is not British people’s responsibility.

        • RightThinkingMan

          Self serving drivel – Britishness is an ideology. No one in Sweden killed anyone in Iraq. You are responsible for him. Apologise! Very mealy mouthed of you not to. Typical of white middle class trash like you. I notice you havent apologise for the mass rape of children by white catholic priests. I guess you agree with that too! Ugh!

          • Gregory Carlin

            Muslims follow civilized people like fleas, desperate to live in their countries. Like beggars, you claw at our doors, and then out of mercy, you get a place, you think that you run the place. Your civilization can barely build a tent. And you call Zalcain white trash?
            Heehehe, the most savage and primitive humans in existance, calling out a White Brit.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Ha! I love you guys – cowards to a man. No wonder the brits lost their empire. When all they had was keyboard cowards like you.

          • Gregory Carlin

            Yeah, keyboards existed during the British empire. Really using that extreme 85 muslim IQ, are you? Stick to what you know Abdullah…..curry and human rights violations.
            Oh, I should not be so mean. Here’s some welfare and a BBC documentary about how you are peaceful

          • Cyril Sneer

            And yet we have countries that inbred sand apes like you want to flock to for a better life.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh – Go and say that at one of the black areas of town. Or are you a coward. Of course you are. That’s why you are so ineffectual. You don’t actually have any balls. Prob one of our transgendered friend?!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Just as was said in past ages by people with your views about Jews.

          • Zalacain

            You are being ironic?

          • Anna Bananahammok

            He’s just being islamic.

          • Zalacain

            I didn’t know it was possible to be so stupid.

          • Anna Bananahammok

            It’s what violent inbreeding will do.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your hate has magical effects indeed.
            For your fantasies.

          • Ridcully

            How do you see to type past all of that spittle covering your monitor?

          • Anna Bananahammok

            Did you just give us Sweden as an example to look up to?
            The Sweden that has rape statistics which surpassed Uganda, because of their love for Muslims, that Sweden?
            You appear more and more inbred, with each comment you make.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh dear – still here – thought you were coming to London to sort out the muslims. But of course, you are a coward!

          • Cyril Sneer

            Do you also abuse your own kids?

          • Bradley

            In Muslim countries, the rape of boys by Muslim men is very prevalent.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Just like in Catholic countries!

      • TRAV1S

        And pederasty isn’t rampant in Muslim culture? They say even the birds fly over Muslim countries with one wing covering their behind.

        • RightThinkingMan

          I guess you must be a Papist – they go in for that! How many did the Popish priests bugger?

      • Dean

        Suspicious that the plod aren’t telling us who the rapists were. If they’d been white it would have been easy enough to say so.

      • The Buttscratcher Jimmy

        The armies of Blair and Bush didn’t kill 100s of thousands you fcukwit. They did that to each other. Remember the little sectarian civil war between Sunni and Shia? The one that’s still going on? Heard of ISIL? M

        No wonder people are sick and bloody tired of this stinking medieval death cult.

        • RightThinkingMan

          Oh dear – one of those nasty white trashy men who went to some nasty little redbrick and cant understand how many people Bush/Blair killed?? Whats it like being thick?

          • The Buttscratcher Jimmy

            Well given that I went to a decent non-red brick uni and fought in both Iraq and Afgahnistan I know exactly how good Muslims are at killing each other. Now is the time you need to FO and let us grown ups talk.

  • Margot5000

    Yes, but what next? Do we all try to flee to Oz or NZ?

    • Ray Spring

      Yes. I personally recommend the South Island, NZ. Ignore the West Coast, too wet. Ignore Queenstown, full of tourists. Canterbury is brilliant plus has Christchurch airport.

      • Margot5000

        Isn’t that an earthquake zone? Though maybe anything better than what we might have coming.

        • RightThinkingMan

          Good – piss off – we don’t need white trash like you

          • Anna Bananahammok

            muslim go *BOOM*

          • Gregory Carlin

            You call someone trash, when you have the same color as human excrement

          • RightThinkingMan

            Tell that to Barack Obama – you know they guy whose “color as human excrement” – interesting spelling of colour. Not a Brit are we?! What’s it like having a black guy be leader of the free world, when you are a ….nobody.. Must hurt! Boo……hoo!

          • Gregory Carlin

            I’m just amazed you can spell. Now you can read your welfare checks and court summons. Whose a good savage? Yooooouuu. Is scratching your belly Haram?

            Silly question, everything is Haram. Except rape and murder.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Barack went to Harvard and you didn’t! Sorry, I forgot, you don’t know what Harvard is

          • Anna Bananahammok

            Which Harvard, the WHITE one or the muslim one?

          • RightThinkingMan

            Ha – how you know ? You didn’t go. You didn’t even make it to Oxbridge. I love the spectator blogs – it’s full of white people who just never went to to the right universities and have this chip on the shoulder. Esp if they meet a black person who did! Must make your silly little job even more frustrating.

          • Cyril Sneer

            You should really spare a thought for all the children you have abused.

            Hope the authorities catch up with you – like they have done with many of your child raping ilk.

          • RightThinkingMan

            thought so! didn’t make it to Oxbridge! Please tell me at least you went to university?

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh – is that it? the level of your intellect? the level of your insults? Go back and take a look at your O level certificate (you did get one didn’t you) and weep

          • Cyril Sneer

            You rape kids.

            That’s just sick.

          • Margot5000

            It won’t be just whites that will want to get out.

          • RightThinkingMan

            You still here. Oh dear, trash like you still here?! Cant you leave?? Or drop dead?!

          • Margot5000

            Beyond pathetic.

        • Ray Spring

          I went off to the AGM of the Farmers Mutual Insurance company, FMG, that I am insured with. Christchurch, September, 2010. The General Manager spoke. The Good News is, FMG can withstand TWO Level 8 Earthquakes. The Bad News is, the next quakes are scheduled for Canterbury. They arrived two weeks later. We have now had around 30,000.
          I was lying in bed for the first one. It felt as if an express train was running over the house. A most interesting experience, far more interesting than when I was in a direct hit by a Typhoon in HK.
          I read the Good Book and got a house built on Rock. The chaps on sand had Liquifaction to dig out. My house is ok, apart from minor problems. We have been able to live in it during all the quakes.
          I come from Brum. Enoch spoke in 1968. I thought, the chap is right. So I left England. A brilliant move. I have been in Christchurch for over 40 years. I recommend it. Ignore the quakes.

        • Ray Spring

          I forgot to add that my wife has an emergency torch in her handbag plus we have another torch in the car. I never let the petrol tank go below half full. In the porch we have a ‘getaway’ kit with essentials including food, clothing and cooking stoves. We have four emergency ten litre water containers. Plus we can, and have, diverted rainwater from the roof into a 40 gallon drum. The original quake was around 7.2. We have had three quakes of over 6 magnitude. There is a major fault line on the West Coast which, when it goes, will be over 8. That may start us up again.

  • RightThinkingMan

    No one believes the drivel that Rod Liddle believes.!

    • Bad Lad

      Rather more do than believe you.

    • Anna Bananahammok

      Most people agree with every word RL writes, it’s just the left that is always louder, more aggressive and forceful, so they drown out the majority.
      Not for long, though. Unless you think Europe will not see anymore wars or revolutions.

      • RightThinkingMan

        That’s why we are going to have a muslim mayor in London! As ever, you spectator lot are whiny babies! Boo hoo!

        • Anna Bananahammok

          You muslims surely are delusional.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Is this what happens when you don’t get into Oxbridge – bitter are we?

          • Tom Allalone

            Getting into Oxbridge isn’t that hard, I did it from a state school. But I’m not the sort of pathetic moron who thinks it’s that huge an achievement and the only thing in my life I have to be proud about – especially when you look at the state of the country and consider how many of our ruling class went to Oxbridge. You display the emotional maturity of a 6 year old – but I as you most likely believe 6 year olds are mature enough to be married, that’s probably a compliment

          • RightThinkingMan

            Is that it? Is this the level of insult from a red brick graduate?

          • Anna Bananahammok

            Says the inbred turd who keeps calling everybody rapists LOL

          • Gregory Carlin

            hmmm….just gonna leave this welfare check here….hope nobody picks it up

            shhht *whisper I’m catching muslims

          • Gregory Carlin

            That’s it young man! No more child grooming until you apologize to Anna Bananahammok

          • RightThinkingMan

            A papist sympathiser! How many children have you Papists actually raped. Did the Roman Satan order you to rape children?

          • Cyril Sneer

            Muslim never stops thinking about kids. You guys are sick in the head just like that pedo ape that you follow.

        • Gregory Carlin

          I’m surprised that muslims have time to become mayors. You know…they are too busy grooming children, praying and collecting welfare.
          Will he have a bullet proof camel, and when will he stage public hangings of gays?
          The job is so demanding

          • RightThinkingMan

            Just like catholics! Are you a papist?

          • Gregory Carlin

            I am actually two papists, 3 Lutherans, and 6 Klingons. Dude, stop grooming white children while we are talking.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Stop raping white women in Kent?!

          • Gregory Carlin

            How does it go, do you rape children, scream Inshallah, and then call the victim racist? I never get the steps right. Help me brother

          • RightThinkingMan

            I don’t know – ask the Popish priests!

          • Cyril Sneer

            Yes but why do you want to sleep with children?

          • Cyril Sneer

            Mate, seriously though, you rape kids. That’s sick.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh – what is like being a loser! A muslim will be mayor and you will still be a loser. Where do you work? Prob one of those nasty middle mgmt. types with cheap suits in some nasty commuter town!

          • Gregory Carlin

            Oh my god. It can type. Who taught it to type? God dammit guys, no more educating the savages. Soon they will want to stop raping their daughters

          • RightThinkingMan

            What was it like to get that Oxbridge reject letter? Or where you too thick to apply?

          • Gregory Carlin

            No that’s the Other Gregory Carlin. I’m the one responsible with rape prevention. So of course I work with muslims all day

          • Gregory Carlin

            Well finally! The UK prison population gets to have one of their own as mayor.
            Keep him away from the kindergartens though…

          • Gregory Carlin

            How do you muslims count your losers? I mean, the less succesful ones have less welfare right?

          • Snipkokken Balsov

            The very type of person that pays the tax to provide your welfare.
            Are your parents first cousins by any chance?
            It would explain the standard deviation reduction of IQ that you exhibit.

          • RightThinkingMan

            I got into Oxbridge and you didn’t. That’s all you have – your bitterness. good! Where did you go? Poly? (you know they don’t count?!)

          • Snipkokken Balsov

            I look in the mirror and see my privilege reflected.
            You can only see your grievance group identities staring back at you.
            Try to make the most of it, old bean.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Ha – another Oxbridge reject! Bitter you didn’t get it! thought so. These blogs are full of redbrick losers doing silly little middle mgmt. jobs in non descript commuter towns.

          • Cyril Sneer

            Lefty tears.

          • Ravi

            Greg – I think he mixed up mayor with martyr. Easy mistake to mistake when your only education is mindless drivel in Arabic

          • Gregory Carlin

            Agreed. The entire 1.6 billion muslim world has translated less books in Arabic, than Finland has translated into Finnish. The average IQ for muslim countries is never past 85

        • The Buttscratcher Jimmy

          You’re a bit of a tw@ aren’t you.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh dear – bitter are we. A muslim mayor and all you can do is whine. why are the spectator lot such yellow cowards. Whiners the whole lot of you.

          • The Buttscratcher Jimmy

            Actually I take it all back, you’re a massive tw@.

    • 1e2c3a4w5

      Yes we do.

    • Cyril Sneer

      Yet more lefty lies.

      You guys just don’t do reality, you’re allergic to it.

  • Hybird

    And meanwhile, a follower of this appalling ideology – which sanctions wife-beating, murder, rape, crucifixion, stoning, flogging and the lopping off of hands and feet and whose “Perfect Man” and role model was a 7th Century version of Charles Manson – is about to become Mayor of our capital city. And not one of his political opponents and not one journalist dares to mention any of this.

    Oh, and another follower of this barbaric, violent, misogynistic, intolerant, supremacist ideology has just made a cake for the Queen! Perhaps they’ll ask Nick Griffin to bake one for her next birthday.

    • Margot5000

      Mmmm. YRCMIU.

    • RightThinkingMan

      Another whiner! I love the spectator. Such losers! Sticks and stones!

      • Gregory Carlin

        Oh MY GOD. The savage can type. Quick! Give it welfare.

        • RightThinkingMan

          Oh didn’t get into Oxbridge! I know – you went to a redbrick – how awful?!

          • Gregory Carlin

            Is Oxbridge the name of your welfare center?

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh – it must hurt musnt it? Not getting in. And having black people who did get in tell you what to do. Just do your job and clean the dishes – that’s what you redbrick types do isn’t it?

          • Gregory Carlin

            Not British. How iS Oxbridge, do they let you park your camel next to your child bride? Oh no sorry. If the camel is a male you segregate them. I’m new to Islam, still learning.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh so bitter you didn’t get in! I got in and you didn’t! Must hurt mustn it – being thick. Bet you were too thick even to apply. Lovely! The redbrick comment hurt didn’t it – don’t worry, you can go back to your middle mgmt. job in slough. Loser!

          • Gregory Carlin

            Awww that’s so cute. The little savage got into college, and now he brags about it on the web. For your people, learning to read is an achievement. Again, not British, I’m not even in the same country as you. But good job.

            With success, you will be able to spoil the goat you are sleeping with.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh – does it hurt?! Not getting in to Oxbridge Love your bitterness! Whats it like not getting in. Of course, you are not British. You are one of those thick white men who have to be told what to do! One of those nasty white colonials.

          • Tom Allalone

            I got into Oxbridge, and I’m male and white. Out of interest, what quota scheme let you in?

          • RightThinkingMan

            Finally, a half intelligent halfwit on the Spectator Blogs! I love the naivety of the Oxbridge white male who thinks that somehow the IRA didn’t have the support of the Irish Catholic population in the North. Funny how few of the Northen Irish Catholic turned in their fellow IRA members. Hmm, I wonder why? Do you think Tom Allone, that they perhaps supported them. you clearly weren’t listening in the tutorials. Has it ever occurred to you that people say one thing and do another. The reality is the people like me run the the UK – we read the FT, the Economist and Bloomberg. The spectator blogs is full of nasty people with unpleasant views who are basically failures in life but have some half cocked intellectual pretensions. In a few weeks, we will have a Muslim mayor and we will vote to stay in the EU. Tom, you went to Oxbridge, but you display the nasty prejudices of a loser. As for the quota scheme that go me into Oxbridge – it was winning a Open scholarship. Remember, Muslim mayor and EU – if it hurts. Good. It is meant to.

          • Cyril Sneer

            So you didn’t get in on merit, you got in because of identity politics.

            What a talentless w a nker you are.

          • Cyril Sneer

            Yep you hate white people.

            I’ve flagged your post because I think you’re a racist c u n t.

          • Cyril Sneer

            He’s really got under your skin.

          • Cyril Sneer

            Why do you hate white people so much?

            Are you not receiving enough welfare or something?

          • RightThinkingMan

            why bother typing this? Come into London and tell every brown person this! Oh, I forgot, you are physical coward! Whats it like being a chicken?

          • Bad Lad

            It’s semi-literate and hasn’t been to Oxbridge except for, maybe, the odd day trip. It could be an alter ego of our dearly beloved Fabian Solutions because they share the same stupidities.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Ha – I love the ignorance and silly snide comments. The great thing about the Spectator blogs is how it is full of Oxbridge rejects! And the bitterness?!

      • Gregory Carlin

        Are you even listening!? hmmm….just gonna leave this welfare check here….hope nobody picks it up

      • Marvin

        Do you sleep in your burka?

        • RightThinkingMan

          Oh – bet you went to redbrick too?!

          • Gregory Carlin

            Yes, we all did. Hardly any muslims there. I guess they don’t accept welfare checks. Islamophobic bastards. They hate muslims so much, they banned child rape

          • Zaba

            That’s the ironic part of islam:
            there is humor therein.

          • Marvin

            I could be kind and say the only moderate Moslem is a dead one. Moderately in the correct place.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, of course you could be a genocidal maniac.

          • Marvin

            Genocide can be justifiable if used correctly. In this case removing an incurable cancerous growth on this lovely Planet.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, that excuse for enemies.
            Just like the Reich said about their enemies.

          • Marvin

            The problem is they picked on the people who are an asset to this Planet in every way and were envious of their fantastic gift of making money. But this lot are the cancer that will end all human life on Earth.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, the problem is you’re using the same type of tactics they did.

          • Marvin

            The only way to stop the planet from total invasion by a race of sub human primitive medieval un-evolved savages. Get it?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I get you should be stopped, yes, thanks for the confession of who you are, and that your tactics are the same as the people you supposedly blame….

          • Marvin

            If only we could start with mutants like yourself, we will be going a long way to fumigating this planet of all the scum.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, the hate of Jews like me, as you spew your genocidal mania.

          • Marvin

            If you are a Jew then you need to learn to understand the simplest thing about my rantings. I have never had a problem in my life with Jews, I have always admired their successes in life, unlike the other two races who are constantly and perpetually been a scavenging and parasitic demanding ignorant species of life.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I get you’ve always had that problem. And even if you’re of mixed race, that’s not quite two races, Mr. Parasite.

          • TartanTerrier

            So what started out as a defence of moderate Muslims ….ends with twisting the attack on jews ….like you. Try inserting ‘Gazan civilians’ instead of ‘Moderate muslims’ and see where you get…..

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So your hate of moderate Muslims…. as you note your twisted attack….

            As I support the citizens of Gaza against their Hamas oppressors, like you.

          • Zaba

            “leon” is a well known professional troll who specialises in provocative and deliberately slanderous “statements”. Please ignore him.

        • Gregory Carlin

          As a muslim, I find that offensive. Now give me welfare and hide the fact that we groom children.

          • Marvin

            Was she older than six when you “you know what?”

          • RightThinkingMan

            You don’t even live in the UK – ugh! Remember no one cares what some fat white guy thinks. Ask Obama!

          • Rbeastlondon

            Obama wold not have been elected without the White make vote.

          • Tara Connor

            true—so I really wonder if all those American men, would elect Hillary for Prez.??that’s what i am wondering. its not true that feminists will all vote for her; lots of us hate her.

    • Rbeastlondon

      I know, it makes me despair. How can any non-Muslim vote for Khan?

      • RightThinkingMan

        No one will vote for you! Does it hurt? Are you despairing? No one cares about racist spectator readers.

        • Rbeastlondon

          I did not know I was running for Mayor. And will you be voting for ‘progressive’ Mr Khan, or are you a troll from the sticks?

    • Tara Connor

      REALLY!!

  • Anna Bananahammok

    Rightthinkingman, you deserve our thanks.
    Without your insane comments, some readers might actually still think, that there are some civilised and non lying, non inbred muslims, out there.

    • RightThinkingMan

      I love your cowardly nature – as long as you keep typing away. you demonstrate your impotence. More muslims every day and you come back with….words…like that makes a difference. Remember there was a black guy giving a press conf in No 10! What are you going to do about that?

      • Anna Bananahammok

        nothing, just wait another 8 months, then you’ll see ;D

        • RightThinkingMan

          Ha – keep typing away! At least the EDL have the balls to demonstrate. So at least, we know who to target. The spectator bigots are too cowardly to do even that.

  • Marvin

    Every Moslem in Britain is a moderate when they are claiming their benefits. No ifs and no buts. Ask Cameron and May who have in the last 7/8 years doubled the number in this country.

    • Zaba

      islam is absolutely: the religion of peace (dot com)

  • gerronwithit

    The wonderful thing about being Muslim is that you can indulge almost any form of perverted pleasure, except of course homosexuality, against almost any other human being you choose. If you see a woman who is ,say, white then almost certain she is a kuffir and deserves to be raped for her religious ignorance. If you hate another Muslim and want to lop his head off then there is usually a sect driven hatred that would justify your actions.

    The problem is that the great march forward by Islamism is through violence, terror and coercion. We can see that this occurs in almost every Muslim country but when their own terrorised people escape to Western tolerance they immediately inflict their same medieval barbarities and ideology on us. `Won’t stop until it is stopped with the same vigour that it is inflicted.

    • JewishKuffar

      Bang on sir. Islam is essentially a pirate’s charter, which gives religious permission for the worst excesses of human nature.

      • RightThinkingMan

        Just like the racist Jewish west bank settlers who burn down arab churches! Or do you only care when Muslims burn down churches.

        • Tara Connor

          problem is,Muslims kill and chase out,Christians in middle-east, so why is it not done to them, also?? answer that.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Well, the racist Jewish settlers agree with you on that!

        • Richard Baranov

          You are talking about a bunch of extremists who do not have the support of the general Israeli population and you know that. It is always a matter of interest that liars, such as yourself, take an extreme and pretend that it is a mainline behaviour, just to support your dishonest point of view. All those caught are jailed by the Israeli authorities, a fact that you also know. People do not come out on the streets celebrating that destruction, unlike Muslims celebrating the deaths of anyone they consider Kuffar.

          • RightThinkingMan

            HA – Jews murdering Arab Christians is the norm in the West Bank. But of course you don’t care about Christians if they live in the West Bank. You only care if Muslims do it. Nice distinction. I am sure Jesus would make the same difference “why if Jews burn down churches, then it’s ok – if Muslims do it, then it’s really really bad”. Glad you approve you of the murder of Christians by Israeli Jews.

    • Zaba

      except of course homosexuality

      Exists Big Time

      See: Bacha bazi, for just one perversion.

      • gerronwithit

        I didn’t want to point this out in my comment as I felt it would just drag it out too far, but you are right of course.

        • Zaba

          For islam, the sky is the limit for crime and perversion.
          It is, as we know, a political ideology sans ethics, sans golden rule……..

    • Tara Connor

      –which is strange, cause homosexuality is very common in Muslim countries.Don’t blame me–the middle-east experts say this.

      • Snow

        Homosexuality is probably a similar percentage in most populations: 2-5% perhaps depending on who you ask. Some countries allow, others have equality laws, some have the death penalty (all Muslim),

        But Bacha Bazi is paedophilia with the victims being boys.

        The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
        https://vimeo.com/11352212

        • RightThinkingMan

          Just like the Papists then!

    • Tara Connor

      I need to tell you,America, even back east, is less liking of Muslims in the US.All over the USA,gun and ammo sales are up to the sky, cause of ISIS–and cause we watch Muslims in your country, whack all the Christians, and take over Britain and Europe.–forget it!! once we let Muslims in, they will KILL CHRISTIANITY.

    • JohnJ

      Islam is a public religion – it concerns what you do in public. What you do in private is of no real consequence. Hence there are plenty of gays in Islamic countries. But it is quiet. Just ask the gays (male) who have been to Saudi Arabia. As a corollary, speaking to one Arab on his own, then you will not get Islam. You can go drinking, tell jokes, check out the chicks…. Get two together and it is more difficult. Three and more means full on Islam as they do not know what the others are thinking. It is pernicious. ( a bit like the old Stalinism). Most young people’s experience with Islam is a few mates from Uni. They went to parties etc. But wait till they get older – full on Islam.

  • Tickertapeguy

    The best way to gauge the tolerance level of a Muslim in Great Britain is his or her willingness to see Christians become citizens in Muslim nations, especially in Saudi Arabia. Just ask any Muslim in London if he would sign a petition that Riyadh permit Cathedrals to be built in Mecca, then see the response.

    In my opinion most would oppose that while demanding that Christian based nations accommodate them.

    • Zaba

      What the heck!
      It says so in their book:

      The Quran plainly tells Muslims that they are a favored race,
      while those of other religions are “perverted transgressors”:

      Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

      • Tickertapeguy

        Article deals with Muslims in Great Britain and not the Koran.
        Many do not follow the Koran to the letter no more than Christians follow the Bible to the letter.
        Going by the article my comment is appropriate

      • Tara Connor

        WOW— tthat says t all!1

    • Tara Connor

      They will never give up Sharia law–and they want ALL WOMEN TO ACCEPT IT.–plus, they can be as insulting,as they like,in their papers,to Christians and Jews, but we can’t make fun of Muhammad, they’ll kill us!–Muslims have TOTAL INTOLERANCE for anyone except themselves.

      • Tickertapeguy

        There are 1.5 billion Muslims across the world and in every continent including Europe (Some Eastern European nations have a large traditional Muslim populations)
        Those in Indonesia (the most populous Muslim nation) have interpretations of Hindu epics and have basically got along with their traditional Christian, Buddhist, Hindu populations.
        Those in the subcontinent number over 500 million and most are dirt poor. The only thing many of them care about is the next meal. Try Bangladesh as an example.
        The article is dealing with Muslims who migrated to western Europe. That is why my comment was tailor cut for that.
        yours is understood and many voice it. but the article brings up the concept of a “moderate Muslim” (whatever that means) in Europe. Only in that sense I place my comment.

        • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

          Ah yes, Indonesia. We remember well their humanitarian work in East Timor.

          • Richard Baranov

            About 203,000 Christians murdered courtesy of Muslim Indonesia, if I recall correctly, about one quarter of the population. One of the great ignored crimes of the last century and nothing to do with Islam, naturally. You cannot take land once conquered and part of Dar al Islam, it’s not legitimate even if the people don’t want you.

          • Tickertapeguy

            Indonesia’s culture is rather unique in the sense that this nation is made up of around 13 thousand islands. My opinion (for what it is) is that whatever tolerance exists is mainly due to geography.
            Bali, Sumatra, Java etc are isolated from each other by an ocean. that isolation allowed many faiths to co exist
            but
            Having said that it is now changing due to the rapid change in communications and Transportation.
            It was meant to be an example and to stand out from the migrant Muslim population the article is addressing.
            I do not deny the intolerance inherent in Islam but do not be so focused on that single faith that you completely fail to see massive levels of intolerance in other faiths. One I know of which is even worse than Islam.

          • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

            Intolerance is an inherent quality of religion, in most examples of “faith”. However, ” most” religions have issues of local intolerance in isolated circumstances. One religion however, seems to carry intolerance everywhere like a badge of “honour”.

          • Tickertapeguy

            If all faiths only focused on what is common among them we would not have different faiths. it it is the difference that makes each faith unique.
            Having said that intolerance is a tricky word
            Jainism is considered the most ‘tolerant” faith towards life. But it is ‘intolerant” to any set of beliefs that oppose its own.
            Then we have societies reforming a faith in order to advance (whatever that word means to you). Christianity has done the most effort in reforming the aspects of its faith that are no longer acceptable.
            Islam and Hinduism are one of the worst when it comes to reforming aspects of their faith that should not be the case anymore. That is my opinion.

  • Holy God we praise Thy Name

    No way can know. Moslems who appear moderate might be lying. They’re still a minority so they could be thinking it’s best to keep their heads down. And let’s not forget how moslems like to play good cop, bad cop. Thus you get them condemning you for this and that but they’ll also hold your hand and sing “We are the World” bla bla bla. Best policy is withhold trust and treat all moslems as though they’re ticking a time bomb who could detonate soon as they see a cartoon they don’t like.

    • Jacobi

      A rapidly growing minority. Several of these tickling time bombs have already gone off, I have just looked up and found some 260+ of these time bombs that have gone off outside of the Middle East since 1980, killing thousands of innocent people, and they are just getting under way.
      When will people wake up to this?

      • justejudexultionis

        The godless, and that includes our ‘leaders’, will never wake up to this.

  • Sat in a Sangar. It’s 1975

    Keep up the good work Rod

  • amicus

    Islam isn’t all that British.

    • GnosticBrian

      None of the three “great monotheistic religions” is British; all were invented in the the Middle East.

      • amicus

        Sorry. I’m not in the mood for smartasses!

        • GnosticBrian

          Nothing “smartass” about a factually accurate post.

          • amicus

            Yawn.

          • GnosticBrian

            Past your bedtime? I’m sure nanny will be along soon to tuck you in and read you a Faery story.

          • amicus

            Ho ho.

          • GnosticBrian

            No, you are NOT Santa Claus.

  • nutsingha

    Rod appears to be one of the few in the media actually telling it how it is (along with the very brave and much admired Douglas Murray). I really wish someone would inform those Guardian morons that they are bringing down western culture (and their own heads) along with it. There will be no freedom or ‘western culture’; no one to whine to when they don’t get their lesbian and gay marches or ‘women’s rights’. They’ll just be raped and murdered for their trouble, like in every other muslim country. The UK will just be another muslim shitethole. And they won’t be saved because they were once nice to a muslim. Look at what happened to the Christian Lebanese when they tried that: slaughtered for their trouble, for trying to be ‘nice’ to these people.
    Demographics is the huge elephant in the room here – just wait for all the old white people to die out… muslims are well on their way to forcing the demographic shift towards a majority in many European countries. London’s next mayor will be an extremist-linked muslim elected largely on the back of the muslim vote (white flight and mass immigration from backwards muslim cultures has had huge consequences here). Still the media calls him ‘moderate’, which is ridiculous. The man is loony tunes, and believes a book that upholds the rape of women and children, the murder of those who don’t believe in it, and a barbaric form of law [Sharia] that is utterly foreign to westerners. We’re about to lose the UK capital to someone who cannot be trusted in any way, shape or form to uphold western values.
    We also have lost about ten IQ points on average in London going by International PISA ranking tests (London 15 year olds are now 2-3 years behind those in Toronto, Sydney, Melbourne and Shanghai. How shameful!). Thanks to mass immigration from incredibly dumb cultures like this one. Such a future to look forward to, as we descend from 1st world to 2nd world very rapidly, along with the loss of average population IQ. The truth is that the vast majority of these immigrant kids are simply not able to operate in a technologically advanced society. With IQ being largely determined by genetics, there is very little we can do about this. Fantastic. Yet still no-one in the idiot lefty media will even acknowledge the damage being wrought.
    I note that we also have a wonderful summer to look forward to now (of yet more Islamic attacks, murders and rapes on children and women) ahead thanks to such idiot apologists.
    Yep, the future looks bright, unless people wake up. Yesterday..

    • Central power

      But Brexiters are mainly against Christian immigration from Europe.

      • Toby

        What are you talking about?

      • Snow

        The biggest worry for Brexiters as regards immigration is that Turkey will join the EU, which given Merkel’s constant pandering to Erdogan is just a matter of time, maybe 10 years.

        This is because it has a population of 80 million, 99% Muslim, set to grow to close to 100 million in just 34 years, two-thirds are under 35, and would be the poorest country in the EU, so extremely mobile. Taking Poland as a benchmark Polish population in London almost 5% (Christian) (Migration Observatory – Oxford University), Turkey theoretically would be more than double that by now because its population is twice that of Poland, poorer and younger – probably 15% of Londoners would be Turkish and Muslim, on top of the roughly 15% of Londoners who are Muslim and forecast by Pew to grow by more than double in 34 years.

        If Turkey joins the EU anytime soon, London could have a majority Muslim population in 34 years, and given they vote in a block, control of London very much before then.

        • Central power

          It will not happen if Britain stays in the EU because together with the Eastern European countries it will be vetoed. Should Britain leave the Turks (in the unlikely event they join) will be able come as they please (as EU nationals) to the UK as they shall not need visas.Do not get me wrong: even present proposals for non visa terms with Turkey would prove catastrophic. Funnily enough quite a few Tory Brexiters have been in favor of Turkish EU application (including Mrs T) – now almost 30 years old. Erdogan’s Turkey does not fulfill EU criteria. That Merkel completely messed up there can be no doubt. Germany has absorbed millions of migrants and they are now fully integrated be it ethnic Germans, Russians (with bits of German ancestry), Yugoslavs etc. Muslims can not integrate – it is against their religion.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You’re blaming Muslims for your views and your non-integration, I see.

            If you see a Turk, it’d be catastrophic for you perhaps, but…

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So you claim to speak for everyone… as you ignore why Turkey won’t, including recent government moves there which have moved sharply away from it even being considered.

          As you make up nonsense about “blocks”.
          And nonsense about controls.

          • Snow

            Such weak points it does not merit a serious response. As part of Merkel’s negotiations Turkey has been fast tracked. Leon, get laid or whatever allows you to scratch that itch that you have clearly allowed to get to you. You’ll feel much better.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yea, so weak to take your nonsense, and your ignorance of recent history…

            (Tip – Several countries have said they’d veto, and intransigence over migrants is losing them support fast… they are not filling the criteria and visa-free access ain’t going to happen)

            And that’s not the wierdest pass I’ve had, but no thanks.

          • Snow

            As for blocks, I guess you’ve never read about Lutfur Rehman the short lived Mayor of Tower Hamlets. Why do you think Sadiq Khan is 10 points in the lead ahead of Zac Goldsmith despite having a list of extremist Jihadist connections as long as his arm, including his aide and speech writer who claimed Lee Rigby murder and near beheading was faked, called homosexuals “f…… f.gg.ts” etc etc etc

          • Leon Wolfeson

            One LONG standing problem area. Right.
            But in your PC…

            As you whine about democracy, check. And ignore a 20 point lead, which comes from far more than Muslims.

            As you ignore your far right’s calls…

          • Snow

            About as far right as former head of the race relations commission, Trevor Phillips who in his recent Times article wrote something aimed at people like you

            “Oddly, the biggest obstacles we now face in addressing the growth of this nation-within-a-nation are not created by British Muslims themselves. Many of our (distinctly un-diverse) … media classes simply refuse to acknowledge the truth…

            Even when confronted with the growing pile of evidence to the contrary”

            What did you said you did?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you complain about the right wing Murdoch-paid…

            I’m not in the press.

          • Snow

            Well, actually it was an ICM survey for a Channel 4 documentary, The Times article, Britain’s newspaper of record, was a by-product. But I’m not surprised you buried your head in the sand and not seen it. You don’t seem very well informed.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Let’s see… UK Polling report… yup, a more recent YouGov/Standard poll.

          • Snow

            That’s a poll for the London Mayor. We were discussing Trevor Phillips. Do try to keep up Leon.

            http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/c4-survey-and-documentary-reveals-what-british-muslims-really-think

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you deny what you said and whine on, check.

          • Snow

            Now you have just shown what and who you are by a bare faced blatant lie when you lost the argument.. I don’t debate with your ilk.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, I’ve opposed your self-superiority syndrome… you don’t debate with lesser-race Jews like me, check.

          • Snow

            I never mentioned your race. You did. You lose the argument and then you play the most blatant race card I’ve ever seen. You demean the word racism. Shame on you.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “U LOSE, JEW”, as you try and wriggle out of your racism and say it’s shameful to use those pesky facts…

          • Snow

            Excuse me, you don’t know what faith I am, and I find that grossly offensive and racist comment. I have reported you.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you didn’t read my post, check, as you find what you said…. right. And of course you’ll report all posts I make, ever, in your totalitarian frenzy. After all, you support state harassment of innocent people who happen to be your targets,

          • Snow

            Leon wrote “you support state harassment of innocent people”

            Really? Where dd I write that? Please copy & paste or people will start to think you’re going a bit doo lally

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You are not people, you’re one person. I do not, by policy, provide information to multiple personalities. (And no, I’m not like you, but thanks Mr. Doo Lally)

            You came into another thread and defended it, of course, but you obviously were more interested in having a go at me than realising the nature of the posts you were defending.

    • Trailblazer10

      Impossible to inform them of anything. Watch Bezmenov explain the effect of subversive indoctrination.It is on youtube.

    • Maureen Fisher

      Londonistan is a fore taste of what’s coming. Everything Houellebecq predicted in his novel Submission is happening now in London.

      • geyien

        London is a lost city; better to wall it up, send all the Muslims there and then let them finish each other off while the rest of us pick a new capital and get on with life.

        • Maureen Fisher

          Some of us still have to live here but have moved to a leafy suburb which makes it more tolerable.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Good – stay in your nasty leafy suburb!! At least we have got rid of filth like you.

          • Maureen Fisher

            Fortunately in my suburb there are very few drunken tramps such as yourself following me around with a Tesco plastic bag full of six cans of Tennents lager and a packet of cheap cigs.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Feel free to leave the Britain you hate so much then.

      As you blame the Other for everything, and make wild claims when you want to exclude people based on where they’re born… make eugenics claims, whine about a free press, as you blame the left for criminals… as you rage against this country….

  • Central power

    I remember how my moderate and nice Muslim colleagues reacted to 9/11. I can assure you it was not disapproval.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      You “assure” people based on the fact you’d never be near a Muslim in the first place…

  • Snow

    Wise informed intellectual President Obama told us all that 99.9% of Muslims are “looking for the same thing we are: order, peace, prosperity” back in February.

    Odd he didn’t check with Pew Research 2013 or Trevor Phiilips, C4 and ICM poll that was published April 2016, or the BBC Radio 4 ComRes poll last year.

    Obama must have sucked his finger and stuck it in the air for the definitive accuracy, presumably. Remarkable man.

    • Toby

      The same one who is advising us to stay in the EU…

    • whatever name

      The US state has its own *propaganda*, the same as the British state. Truth or reality has got nothing to do with it. It is not just about lying about Muslims, it is about telling us lies and what *we* should think about Muslims. The state is imposing its own PC dogmas through constant and blatant lies. (What a great thing this “democracy” really is, it is so much different to IS it is unbelievable.)

    • Shane

      Obama is a denier who continually lies to America and the world by refusing to acknowledge the direct line between the religious beliefs of Islam and the despicably violent acts of Islamic terrorists. He literally refuses to use the words Muslim and Terrorist in the same sentence.

      He didn’t acknowledge Jews being murdered by Muslims in the Paris Deli as Islamic terrorism and did his best to push a false benefit of the doubt about the San Bernadino terrorists being Muslims until the evidence quickly piled so high and deep that even he couldn’t deny it any longer.

      His go-to reaction to terrorist acts by Muslims killing westerners and Europeans is to try and protect other Muslims from nonexistent reprisals and Islamophobia.

      He has consistently pushed the false paradigms that have been roundly debunked by facts about Islamic extremism and terrorism being driven by income inequality and the tyranny of the west and the US and former colonial powers.

      Obama is regressive leftist at best. but certainly a sympathizer.

  • Maybe we should examine Quran: http://www.quranwow.com in English

    • Read Below

      http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ is where the truth lies.

      • Arcadiano Sinisterra

        islamfachismus

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Ah, looking at bad translations which are not what people actually believe…

  • Read Below

    There are two types of Muslims

    1. Muslims who have read the Quran and follow it.
    2. Muslims who have read the Quran and do not follow it.

    The ones that follow it join the ISIS/Taliban/Alqueda and the ones that do not follow it only support them.

    • geyien

      You have nailed the problem in one.

  • Sue Smith

    Seriously, that picture up the top invites us all to give them all a huge kick in the rear end!!! I’d be more than happy to oblige.

    And, speaking of pleasure – think “regression”!

    https://sli.mg/a/gpU0o0

    • Keith

      Personally I would prefer to see a farmer herding his pigs across the front of them. Or maybe even a womens breast cancer event running across the front of them. That should make their prayers invalid.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Yes, PC violence is of course your forte.

  • Teacher

    Look at the picture. No true British person would grovel under any circumstances.

    • Andy C

      As Psalm 3.3 has it: But You are a shield around me, O Lord; You bestow glory on me and lift up my head. No lifting of heads there; more lifting of bottoms. But that is what you get when you exchange sonship for slavery, I’m afraid.

      • whatever name

        Have you visited any of the sacraments recently? All priests prostate themselves face down on the floor before ordination, confirmation candidates kneel before the bishop, communicants bob up and down and kneel for the host, penitents kneel for absolution. (Well a lot of that stuff has been abolished since the 1960s.) There is lots of prostration in the Bible and some kneeling on the beach too (by the first people called “Christians” evidently.)

        I am not saying that it is “good” or that it is “true British” but it certainly is Christian to metaphorically live on one’s knees.

        • Conway

          Last time I was in church, nobody had their backside in the air. Kneeling and that posture are not synonymous.

        • Andy C

          Hah. You spotted the obvious flaw in my implied argument. Off the top of my head though, whilst there is definitiely a lot of proskuneo-ing in the old testament, it is rather less common in the new (ok, I know I am about to be deluged with examples): I can think of John falling on his face at the beginning of Revelation; and in the same book, the elders before the throne doing likewise. But there is an overall message of lifting people up: as Monty Python imagined God: “stop grovelling – I can’t stand grovellers”.

  • Maureen Fisher

    It’s unsurprising that you’re hearing so much, Rod. The ROP is currently responsible for 100% of terrorism throughout the world. That’s right, 100%. It’s official! Re: The Gatestone Institute.

    • GnosticBrian

      The continuity IRA are Muslim, I didn’t know that.

      • whatever name

        Right, the terrorist Zionist USA state is Muslim too.

      • Maureen Fisher

        When was their last attack?

        • GnosticBrian

          Two months ago – http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2016/03/07/news/-ira-say-they-tried-to-kill-prison-officer-441662/ – as I feel sure you already knew, pity it doesn’t fit your agenda.

          • Maureen Fisher

            What is your agenda? Disproving Islamic terrorism? I reckon you’re on a loser there, dear.

          • GnosticBrian

            “dear”? A tad patronising don’t you think?

            My “agenda” is to show that ALL Sky Faery cults are much of a muchness when it comes to causing human misery on a massive scale.

            For the avoidance of doubt, I consider Islamic terrorism to be a proven fact, luv.

          • Maureen Fisher

            The provos were not of the Sky Faery variety. Their aims were a political settlement for N. Ireland. But tell me, when did they last attack civilians?

          • GnosticBrian

            The IRA (in whatever form) were definitely terrorists and they were NOT Muslim – so your assertion “The ROP is currently responsible for 100% of terrorism throughout the world. That’s right, 100%” is BUSTED.

          • Maureen Fisher

            Ok I’ll modify that to 99% just in case there’s an obscure branch of the IRA still at it, though you’ve yet to give me an example of a recent atrocity. HTH.

          • GnosticBrian

            I already gave you a link to a recent attempted murder by Irish terrorists – have you forgotten so soon? http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2016/03/07/news/-ira-say-they-tried-to-kill-prison-officer-441662/

            Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia.
            Aum Shinrikyo.
            Bagong Hukbong Bayan.
            Ejército de Liberación Nacional
            Доне́цкая Наро́дная Респу́блика.
            Επαναστατικός Αγώνας, Epanastatikos Agonas.
            Ergenekon.
            Euskadi Ta Askatasuna.
            Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia—Ejército del Pueblo.
            Kach.
            Kahane Chai.
            Kanglei Yaol Kanba Lup.
            Khalistan Commando Force
            Loyalist Volunteer Force.
            Луга́нская Наро́дная Респу́блика.
            National Democratic Front of Bodoland.
            National Liberation Front of Tripura.
            Orange Volunteer Force.
            Pambansang Demokratikong Prente ng Pilipinas.
            People’s Liberation Army of Manipur.
            Συνωμοσία των Πυρήνων της Φωτιάς.
            People’s Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak.
            Red Hand Commando.
            Sendero Luminoso.
            Tanzim.
            The Lord’s Resistance Army.
            UDA.
            UVF.
            United Liberation Front of Assam.
            United National Liberation Front of Manipur.

          • Maureen Fisher

            No you didn’t give me a link until now but at any rate to pretend that the clapped out “Shinners” are on the same page as the ROP is silly so that’s the end of this discussion.

          • GnosticBrian

            Yes I did, my second response to you, two days ago – scroll up and find:

            Two months ago – http://www.irishnews.com/news/… – as I feel sure you already knew, pity it doesn’t fit your agenda.

            You’ve been BUSTED – your claim that Muslims are responsible for 100% of world terrorism is palpable nonesense. Suck it up.

          • Maureen Fisher

            Irrevelant.

          • GnosticBrian

            They are entirely relevant to your absurd claim that 100% of world terrorism is caused by Muslims.

            Your BUSTED. Suck it up!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, of course you only care about certain terrorists.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, your agenda is to show you’re an even bigger PC bigot than Maureen. Well done!

          • GnosticBrian

            False goats are vicious, though not really radioactive.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You are? Right.

          • GnosticBrian

            Ahova czabanyak lasszon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Thanks. And in English?

          • GnosticBrian

            You think yourself so clever, translate it yourself.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, you want to be pandered to. On an English newspaper’s forum. No.

          • GnosticBrian

            The Spectator is NOT a newspaper.

  • Andy C

    What’s with the phrase “Muslim chaplain”. A “chaplain” is a clergyman attached to the *chapel* of a household or institution. Surely they can come up with an equivalent word.

  • Toby

    “But while there is a healthy trickle of clear blue water between what
    most British Muslims believe and what, for example, is believed by the
    Islamic State, there is an ocean between what they believe and what the
    rest of us here in the UK believe.”

    To be precise: to be Muslim is to believe in the Quran without moderation.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      …in your view, which would be considered silly by most Muslims.

  • whatever name

    “But while there is a healthy trickle of clear blue water between what most British Muslims believe and what, for example, is believed by the Islamic State, there is an ocean between what they believe and what the rest of us here in the UK believe.”

    So why do Muslims have to “believe” the same as other people? This is a democracy right, that believes in freedom of belief, expression and association. So get over it, because unless you accept that Muslims don’t have to agree with the latest UK brand of PC, then you are not a liberal anyway. Which is hypocrisy, right there. “Liberalism” has ceased to be about the liberty of persons and communities to pursue their own values, it is now about the universal imposition of PC “values”, it is all about stopping liberty as classically understood. Britain has never been a liberal country, the state imposed Christian values and now it imposes PC values.

    Quite frankly, get over it. The British state chose a path of mass immigration (without any democratic mandate), what did you expect?

    Btw what makes you so sure that the “rest of us” all “believe” the same things? Why on earth, in a “free” and “tolerant” society would everyone end up “believing” the same stuff? Clearly this is about the state imposing PC values, it has got nothing to do with liberalism. Evidently the “rest of us” all “believe” the same stuff whether we want to or not, whether we even know it or not – because the latest PC fashion is “moral truth”, right?

    • We don’t know what they believe, we should take them at their word. If they say their role model is a man who was guilty of child marriage, murder, rape, enslavement then we should take them at their word.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Whereas capitalists, with their nastier role models…

        • You mean like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc.?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Oh look, I’m not a communist or socialist.

            I’m a mutualist – and if you’re afraid of John Lewis…

          • Well nice to meet you Mr. Mutualist, sorry I mistook you for a leftie troll. Quite a few lurk in these whereabouts. I always thought that eccentricity was one of the most undervalued art forms.

            I’m still not clear however about which capitalists quite match Mohammed in terms of how bad a role model can be? No doubt many were also murderers, enslavers, rapists and child abusers, but which of them claimed their misdeeds were sanctioned by a supreme being, and thereby inspired others to follow their bad example?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, you’re quite happy to make excuses, I hear you.
            Why does the excuse used matter?

            Tell me, why do you think Leopold II…

    • geyien

      Democracy and freedom of belief only survive when everyone agrees in them and “plays by the same rules”. Muslims want to abolish both because no man-made laws are needed when God’s law is already perfect and no other beliefs should be allowed to exist because Islam is the only true faith.

      We insist on “playing nice” to all people, including Muslims, because these are our values; Muslims refuse to “play nice” and laugh at our weakness. This will be the death of us.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        So you say all Muslims, in your PC…

    • Leon Wolfeson

      “without any democratic mandate)”

      So you deny we’ve had elections…sigh.

  • Hameed

    One supporter of Suliman Gani (yeah him), Imam Sohail Bawa calling for ‘streets filled with blood’;

    http://goo.gl/7H2Y

    • Leon Wolfeson

      So in this case he did no more than Powell…

      Yes, what he did was wrong. So Powell…

  • Zalacain

    “How moderate are moderate Muslims?”

    I think that this is a good question. We should try to define what a “moderate Muslim” is, as opposed to an “extremist Mulsim”. Having clear definitions makes it more difficult for people to fudge the issue.

    • Zaba

      It is not violent extremism or even radical Islam: it is Islam itself, which has remained unchanged for over 1,300 years.

      The former Turkish Prime Minister and current President Recep Tayyip Erdogan stated it best when he declared

      “Islam is Islam. There are no modifiers,” e.g., Islamic Extremism.

      http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/02/03/islamic-ideology-identifying-the-enemy/

      • Zalacain

        I know this. The fact remains that when you make people define what they mean, it will make it very difficult for them to hide behind woolly words and expressions.

        If we all have a clear understanding of what we mean by the expression a “moderate Muslim”, we can then go on to agree how many Muslims in Europe or the UK, or wherever, are actually moderate. It is a good way of clarifying people’s ideas.

        • whatever name

          Yes, what does “moderate” mean in this context anyway? Does it mean that they give sway to the PC dogmas imposed by the British state media? Can one be a “moderate liberal”? I think they mean “moderate” in the sense that one gives in to the alleged status quo, as in like the “moderator” laid down the law and imposed order. It seems to come from “modus” or “mean” or better the allegedly preset social norm.

          Classical liberalism has got little to do with it, it is all about the attempt of the British state to successfully impose mass immigration without any democratic mandate, to make the bosses more money and to keep the capitalist system going for a bit longer, and lets all pretend that it is for the best (even in the face of all evidence to the contrary.) It is all about money and propaganda nothing more.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        …in the eyes of your sort of fanatic, who agrees with other fanatics. Right.

        • Zaba

          Erdogan is a ‘fanatic’?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Given his recent actions? Er, yes.

            Different type of fanatic to some others, but a fanatic certainly.

    • quotes

      If “moderate Muslim” means “moderate for a Muslim” then obviously Zaba is right: there are not too many halfway houses in Islam. But if “moderate Muslim” means “Muslim who can live in the West without threatening it” (and we shouldn’t forget that most do) then I’d figure “moderate Muslim” means roughly the Muslim version of a cultural Christian or an atheist Jew. Maybe keeping the dietary restrictions and observing some of the festivals, but not actually believing it or putting it into practice.

  • GnosticBrian

    All Sky Faery cults bring misery and suffering on humanity.

    • Setebos

      You may well be right. The best course of action would be to avoid those foolish cults and be a Christian instead.

      • whatever name

        “2:4 qui habitat in caelis inridebit eos et Dominus subsannabit eos ” (psalms, vulgate)

        “He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.” (kjv)

        But our God lives in the clouds. caelis=clouds. Judaeo-Christianity is literally a Sky God cult. None of that nasty earthly golden calf here.

        • Setebos

          I’m struggling to find the word ‘Faery’ in your post. Please assist.
          Then, please explain why you have chosen the Vulgate, a poor translation of the text.
          Then, if you would be so kind, say why you have chosen to confuse Biblical Fundamentalism with Christianity.

          • whatever name

            I think that faery is a metaphor for “god”, like maybe there are millions of dance faeries having a drinking party down the bottom of your garden every night, just because science cannot detect them does NOT mean that they do not exist. Its like God, see? So the God who “lives in the clouds” is the Great Sky Fairy.

          • Setebos

            ‘I think that faery is a metaphor for “god”,’
            Do you, indeed? Then you’re even less informed than I first thought.
            So, you have nothing.
            As I knew from the start.

          • whatever name

            Go on then, prove the existence of your god…

          • Setebos

            I’m still waiting for you to answer my three questions.
            Let’s take it order, shall we?

          • whatever name

            Well you convinced me! / sarc off

            Anyway enjoy your weekend mate, may your god be with you.

          • Setebos

            As I said – you have nothing. Just cheap slogans.

          • whatever name
          • crackerMF

            it appears that you practice exactly one of the close to 2 billion different strains of christianity currently in existence and since you are the only member of your particular christian cult you can easily (and even honestly) claim that everyone else is not a “true christian”.

          • Setebos

            Two billion, eh?
            Are you sure?
            ‘only member’? There’ll be rather a lot of us at church tomorrow. Shall I tell the others that they don’t exist?

      • GnosticBrian

        Christianity – the Sky Faery cult cobbled together at Nicea in 325CE, no thanks.

        • Setebos

          No, not that one. You’re suffering from mistaken identity.

          • GnosticBrian

            Yes, that one.

          • Setebos

            I’m an easy-going sort of chap.
            You sneer at your Christianity, and I’ll follow mine.
            They’re two entirely different things.

          • GnosticBrian

            I don’t have a Christianity.

            I sneer at all Sky Faery cults – they have brought untold misery to the world. Christianity more than most – holocaust, Rwanda massacre and Srebrenica to cite but three examples of “Christian love” in action.

          • Setebos

            Oh, but you do. One of your own confecting, and quite unlike the thing which actually is Christianity.

          • GnosticBrian

            You offer me wild assumption as a substitute for fact.

            Do you deny the three instances of mass murder that I cited were carried out by folks professing to be Christian? Or are you adopting the same apologist line used by media luvvies to excuse Muslim atrocities; they are not “real” Muslims?

          • Setebos

            The problem with what I’ll charitably call your argument is that I don’t believe in the God that you don’t believe in and nor do any of my very many Christian friends. You invent a monster and then accuse us of believing in it.
            We don’t.

          • whatever name

            Neither do I.

          • Setebos

            I rather think that you do believe in the monster, otherwise you wouldn’t try so hard to convince Christians that they believe in it, too.
            We don’t. We believe in the living God.

          • whatever name

            I don’t “believe” in any god. Sorry.

          • Setebos

            Oh, but you do.
            You believe in the monster who’s been made up to mock Christians.

          • quotes

            Christians are the ones who made something up.

            We just documented what you did with your fairy story. Or were the crusades and the inquisitions lies? Was church child abuse – all denominations have seen it – a smear? The Church – all denominations – has always been prone to corruption. Christianity is not in any way exceptional for a religion.

            Sorry if you feel like you’re being mocked when people point out that you are required to believe that a virgin born unable to sin gave birth to the human son of god who rose people from the dead, walked on water and then ascended bodily into heaven after himself rising from the dead. But it’s not claiming the right to define Christianity to sum up Christianity in that way: Christians have repeatedly defined Christianity in that way themselves.

            You don’t have to believe in obvious falsehoods if you don’t want to, you know.

          • Setebos

            Again, as with other posters, you confuse Christians with Biblical Fundamentalists. You have to do that, or your whole structure collapses.
            As for your other point. I do bad things. But I do them despite my faith, not because of it.

          • crackerMF

            where, exactly, does your “living” god live?

          • Setebos

            In you, darling.

          • crackerMF

            dear patagonian deity,

            in little ol’ me?
            you mean like a tapeworm or some other kind of parasite?

            if that was true we could find your god with a good microscope. it’s surprising nobody has won a nobel prize in biology for that discovery yet.

            hey! you could go to a good secular school, get an education in evidence based science and win that prize yourself. or at least learn why you never will.

            signed,
            – the nobel prize in biology

          • GnosticBrian

            I don’t believe in any Sky Faery. My point is that many who professed belief in your deity carried out the massacres that I mentioned and your disembling can’t change that fact.

          • Setebos

            Neither do I.
            I don’t know who told you that you’d been given authority to define Christian belief, but I’m afraid they fibbed to you. You haven’t.

          • MikeF

            The Holocaust was the result of a purely materialistic ideology – a pseudo-scientific racial determinism that was a debased product Enlightenment rationalism. It was nothing to do with Christianity.

          • GnosticBrian

            Not according to the Roman Catholic Church.

            Ivan Šarić was the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Vrhbosna in Sarajevo, who supported the Ustaša. His diocesan newspaper wrote: “[t]here is a limit to love. The movement of liberation of the world from the Jews is a movement for the renewal of human dignity. Omniscient and omnipotent God stands behind
            this movement.” Šarić appropriated Jewish property for his own use, but was not legally charged.

          • MikeF
          • GnosticBrian

            So what was factually incorrect in my post?

          • MikeF

            It was partial and selective and sought to make a general point from a particular instance in which local prejudices played an inordinate role.

          • GnosticBrian

            So NO factual errors in my post.

            As an advocate of serious reading, try this: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

            You might also consider: “Historians point out that any support the Pope did give the Jews came after 1942, once U.S. officials told him that the allies wanted total victory, and it became likely that they would get it. Furthering the notion that any intervention by Pius XII was based on practical advantage rather than moral inclination is the fact that in late 1942, Pius XII began to advise the German and Hungarian bishops that it would be to their ultimate political advantage to go on record as speaking out against the massacre of the Jews”. Israel Pocket Library, Holocaust, p. 136.

          • MikeF

            None in mine either. You might also consider that Pius XII actually sheltered Jews in the Papal residence of Castelgandolfo when Rome was still occupied by the National Socialists. That is hardly an act of mere political opportunism.

        • justejudexultionis

          As Pascal pointed out, Christianity is a perfect balance of mystery and rationality. The evidence for the divinity and resurrection of Christ as presented in the Four Gospels is completely overwhelming. Christianity has protected us from barbarism for over fifteen centuries in this country. Why replace it with the barbaric political death cult that is Islam.

          • GnosticBrian

            “The evidence for the divinity and resurrection of Christ as presented in the Four Gospels is completely overwhelming” – Rubbish. Just one example, the four gospels don’t agree on the nativity story; hardly compelling evidence.

          • Miss Floribunda Rose

            The only problem being that the doctrine is in fact untrue, just as untrue as Islam and Judaism. Reject faith, and free your mind from the shackles of belief!

          • rtj1211

            You wouldn’t make much of a judge if you think that the Four Gospels is ‘overwhelming evidence’.

            You’ll be telling me next that the evidence for runaway global warming is ‘overwhelming’, because four hundred and forty four Professors seeking billions in grant funding trot out the party line…….

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Or simply not be a member of a cult. Which are not the same as a religion – the work done by mostly secular anti-cult campaigners…

    • Leon Wolfeson

      You are the only one with your belief in your own cult here.

      • GnosticBrian

        The brown dog faces East at midnight.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          I don’t care about the details of your worship, Mr. Brown Dog.

          • GnosticBrian

            Diddums.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Make your mind up on your name!

          • GnosticBrian

            Wombiquangle nomet slotule.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And there you have Brian.

          • GnosticBrian

            Zusrer beweinem wirkauckt.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            As you can see.

          • GnosticBrian

            ???

            I suspect a mistranslation on your part.

  • Maureen Fisher

    The 6th of May is going to be interesting. Hundreds of Muslim grievance groups are going to be battering the door down of County Hall to get funding off our new Muslim Mayor.

    • whatever name

      Not to mention the new Muslim chairperson of the NUS LOL.

      I am saying nothing. Just get over it, what did you expect?

      We still live in prehistoric times when the state tells people what they “must” “believe”, just for the money and JFTS.

    • Hameed

      Absolutely and why not? They “deserve” it.

    • rtj1211

      No doubt white private sector construction groups have never been getting funding off local- or central government, have never been fiddling planning enquiries and have never been bunging Governments to encroach green belt land to enhance their profits.

      Not to mention wanting the public sector to pay for new tube extensions so that they can cream millions increasing the prices of houses built at the end of those new publicly funded lines.

      No end to white right wing pressure groups gently chatting behind closed doors to pervert political processes……

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Ah, claims about violence…sigh.
      And magical claims about…

  • whatever name

    Behold, Zarathustra shows you the Great Sky Fairy.

  • Maureen Fisher

    Dear Rod, I’m a mother of a gay son and am mindful that this lot want to kill him. Mind you, some of the extreme right nutters on American forums would like to do the same. Funny how lefties think they have more in common with extreme right Muslims than extreme right Christians when they’re both pretty much the same – ie kill gays.

    • Foxy Loxy

      Oh, really? Can you point out the part of the New Testament where Jesus calls for the murder of homosexuals? If not, why do you call people, who want to kill homosexuals, Christian?

      • whatever name

        “They all deserve to die and anyone who takes pleasure in them.” (romans 1)

        • Foxy Loxy

          That is universally interpreted as ‘divine judgement’, not ‘capital punishment’. And it doesn’t stipulate commands to ‘kill homosexuals’.

          Try again.

          • whatever name

            “universally interpreted”

            Except for all the laws in Christendom, including the UK. Just go to bed.

          • Foxy Loxy

            You just don’t like being shown to be wrong. Clearly you’re drunk.

          • whatever name

            I don’t respond to filthy allegations. I am English.

          • Foxy Loxy

            Of course you are.

          • whatever name

            Are you?

          • Foxy Loxy

            That’s none of your business.

          • whatever name

            I know, right? So nothing is any of your business. Get over it.

          • Jacobi

            Now stop it you two.

            Homosexuality, refers to both sexes remember, is is a depravity, is intrinsically
            disordered and contrary to natural law.

            Having said that, they must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity, and called to chastity.

          • rtj1211

            It is undoubtedly not contrary to ‘natural law’, indeed it is one way of a species coping with overpopulation. You assume that the evolutionary imperatives of a rare species scraping a living are the same as that of a parasitic plague one….

            Just remember that the Bible was written when humans were of a low population and struggling to survive.

            Think how it might have been written when the population is 5 billion plus headed toward 10 billion this century……..

          • Jacobi

            It is contrary to natural law.
            Ask anybody. Well anybody who is not intrinsically disordered that is. The penus is designed to go somewhere else and to fulfil a specific function.
            Human beings are just that, Human beings. We are not animals or even bugs (of whatever sort).
            People were not struggling to survive in the circa 7 centuries BC when the Bible was written. The climate was relatively good being into the current post-glacial.
            As for 5 Billion, we’ shall manage if necessary. Do remember we are not bugs you know but thinking creatures.
            So cheer up Laddie!

          • Lindum

            It’s contrary to “natural law”… “Ask anybody”. The most ridiculous argument ever.

          • Jacobi

            And the most sensible. Just mentioned it to some pals today and they all agree with me !

          • Lindum

            7 billion plus today.

          • Lindum

            The universe is infinite. There may be many more universes. Probably life is teeming throughout the universes.

            Assuming that a God created all this, and also created homosexuality in animals, do you think it cares about what one species does with its genitals? Or is this just the inherited myths from our pre-literate ancestors?

          • Jacobi

            The universe is not infinite although I agree it is quite large. There may be and there may not be other universes. We don’t know. Life may and be and may not be elsewhere. We don’t know.
            God did create this. Man is not perfect in the image of God, but he is special.
            We all have our imperfections but are given the grace to overcome them.
            Our pre-literate ancestors were as intelligent as we are,( and probably better thinkers as far as I can see ).
            God, being infinite is concerned with all sorts of things but those I see most obsessed with genitals are a slice of present day “literates”!

          • Lindum

            What do you base you knowledge on that our species is special? Please don’t base it on a silly book from antiquity (because there are lots of other similar books with different claims).

            Our pre-literate ancestors were not as intelligent as we are – the human brain is made by stimulation and we get much more now (hence rising IQs), and they had no science – all they had was stuff that was made up. Hence why your book has so many basic mistakes – like the Earth being the center of the universe.

            As for you god being infinite. How do you know it is?

            By the way – do you believe in the power of prayer?

          • Jacobi

            Lindum,
            Please do not refer to the Bible or any other religious book as “silly” . Misguided, contradictory perhaps, wrong. But such books have been revered by billons over the centuries and if you think they are silly then you are in a vanishingly small minority.
            And how do you know how pr

          • Johnny Foreigner ✓ Very angry

            More Dub, less vocal rambling please.

          • rtj1211

            If you are questioning their allegiance, they have the right to question yours. Difficult logic I know, but ‘first world’, ‘english’, ‘western’, call that what you will.

            I was born to those of white British ethnic genetics, hold a UK passport and live in the UK.

          • Foxy Loxy

            “I was born to those of white British ethnic genetics, hold a UK passport and live in the UK.”

            Well done you.

        • WalterBannon

          You missed the ten commandments which is the basic framework of Christianity. You need to be mindful of this when you interpret the rest of the gospel.

          Christianity considers being gay a sin, and sins are the jurisdiction of God not man for divine judgment. Christians are not urged to go out and usurp God’s authority. These passages in the bible are instruction for what to avoid doing in your own life, not instruction to go out and break the ten commandments.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        What do people actually believe and do?

        • Rex

          Throw gay men off buildings, oh wait, that was ISIS.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And you approve why?

          • Rex

            And you love playing strawman why?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Mirror, mirror…

          • Rex

            Right back at you. Since you’re incapable of understanding anything, here, make a list of all the people killed for being homosexual in the 21st century in the Western world by the same Rush Limbaugh and Donald Trump worshipping homophobes you love to demonize and contrast that with the actions of the likes of ISIS.
            Talk is cheap. I’m yet to hear of any gay people being murdered by a conservative and/or Trump supporter, let alone the killers getting away with it.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your odd fantasies are just that, you’re spouting nonsense I never said.

            You refuse to hear about killings which don’t suit your worldview? Yea, I can understand that.

          • Rex

            So go on, humor me, let’s hear about these supposed killings that make conservatives worse than ISIS militants.
            Going back to your original statement of ‘What do people say and do’.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Why would I humour someone who is absolutely fine with “conservative” crimes?

            As you do indeed ignore what people say and do.

          • Rex

            Sweetheart, exactly what are these crimes that you are going on and on about without once being specific despite being asked so many times, and how do they stack up against what ISIS has been doing? How many gay people have been murdered by conservatives lately, as opposed to being subject to discrimination and/or hate speech?

    • WalterBannon

      your moral relativism is utter nonsense you foolish woman

      Your lie about “extreme right Christians” is just that – a lie. There is no christian movement that calls for gays to be killed, anywhere.

      head back to the Guardian where you belong

      • Maureen Fisher

        That’s funny.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Actually you’re quite wrong, but hey.

      • Lindum

        There are, but not many, and they don’t do it.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Ah, so you don’t know what people believe, and you refuse to admit the people in this country…

      As you blame the left with your PC views… look, your family issues…

    • andyrwebman

      We’ve seen from the recent news on the “no platform” front what the Muslims and the lefties have in common – their desire to restrict free speech.

    • Lindum

      But how often does the extreme right actually kill gays? Rarely. And Moslims killing gays? Daily.

      • Maureen Fisher

        True. But no religion has been an advocate for gay rights just in case you hadn’t noticed.

  • John Birch

    These recently posted comments have gone down a blind alley and are now completely missing the point of the article. The point is simple. Do we want to live in a first world country alongside mainly decent people or do we want it to turn into a third world $hithole.

  • Hameed

    Finally some alligator tears;
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/23/asad-shah-stabbed-ahmadiyya-muslim-glasgow

    As anyone seen much in practice though?

    • Hameed

      Britain is becoming a third world country where short of a murder no one takes much notice of extremism.

      • Lindum

        That is how civil wars start…little by little.

    • JohnJ

      Actually the Ahmadiyyas are our “canary in the mine”. Sorry guys. So the trick is to keep an eye on attacks, leaflets and threats to judge the level of fundamentalism action against the rest of us.
      Interesting that the police are going to reassure the Ahmadiyya community. Perhaps they could raid and arrest the Sunni Islamists ( including the imams) who call for their murder. But that is too hard for our coppers, as it is in Arabic – and any murder threat said in Arabic is not counted by the police or legal system of the West.

  • whatever name

    You got the sky and you got the grass and you got the leaves in between. (They want to build in me fields. Well F them.)

    The Labour (Work) Party never represented us and the “Conservative” Party don’t conserve anything.

    All they care about is money. My advice is to just walk out and walk away. Do not pursue any dialogue with the Babylon.

    Super Jamey bursts through the window. You think I’m joking.

    Kill-a Dinn-a

  • trobrianders

    So called moderate Muslims share fear of allah with their extremist brethren. There is no way they will go against them in favour of us godless heathens.

  • Artemis33

    Liddle’s obsession with Jews and Muslims has become extremely tiresome.

    • Snow

      Muslims, yes, Islamic State, Paris 11/11, Paris Charlie Hebdo, Tunisia, Brussels, Lee Rigby, bomb on Russian flight from Sinai, Cologne rapes & gang rapes, Rotherham, Oxford, Rochester, Bristol, What do Muslims really think? etc etc

      What’s Liddle’s obsession with Jews?

      • Ivan Ewan

        The truth wasn’t going to hurt so dear little Artemis added a lie.

        • Icebow

          The muzz have six different modes of deception.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And your six hundred and sixty six…

          • Icebow

            Oh, that’s clever.

          • Zaba

            Islam and the Golden Rule

            The problem with the good teachings of Muhammad is that they are reserved for fellow Muslims. When the hadith says “None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself,.” it is talking about the fellow Muslims. The brotherhood in Islam does not extend to everyone. The Quran (9:23) states that the believers should not take for friends and protectors (awlia) their fathers and brothers if they love Infidelity above Islam. In fact there are many verses that tell the Muslims to kill the unbelievers and be harsh to them. A clear example that Islam is not based on the Golden Rule is the verse (48:29): “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.” This is the perfect definition of fascism.

            http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/05/islam-and-the-golden-rule

      • Leon Wolfeson

        And other terrorism? Oh, right.

        • Rex

          What ‘other’ terrorism is present around the world now in the 21st century? Jain terrorism? Or Pastafarian?

          • notinmyname

            Vegetarianism, global-warmingism? LOL

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, that excuse for it. Check.

        • Snow

          Other terrorism in Europe Leon? Time to improve your perspective. Islamic terrorism in Europe has dominated terrorist murders in recent times, as this Economist chart demonstrates. http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/11/daily-chart-10

          And by the why the chart does not include the 32 murders in the Brussels Jihadist attacks nor the religiously motivated attack on the Ahmadi Muslim shop keeper in Glasgow, allegedly by another Muslim. Nor does it include the 224 Russians murdered by a Jihadist bomb which took off from Egypt nor the 38 people murdered on a beach in Tunisia, 30 of them British,

          The only other significant terrorist attack in that recent period was by Anders Breivik, and as we know it was not religiously motivated. BBC “Psychiatrists assessing self-confessed Norwegian mass killer Anders Behring Breivik have concluded that he is suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. They believe he was in a psychotic state both during and after the twin attacks”

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, time for you to issue excused for other terrorism, to defend it. I hear you.

            Not doing what I do, which is condemning all terrorism.
            As your personalities try and minimize other attacks, and as you make excuses for Brevik. When you have counted other attacks by mentally ill people.

          • Snow

            You do write the most utter contrived nonsense I’ve ever heard. My point was that the REASON we are discussing Islamist terrorism is because it has DOMINATED terrorist killings in Europe over recent years and especially 18 months.

            Only in the mind of someone deeply tendentious and unable to see the wood from the trees would that mean that pointing the blindingly obvious out would mean that they do not condemn all terrorist attacks against unarmed civilians in Europe.

          • Snow

            These are the comments to an article “How moderate are moderate M_slims” to which the answer appears to be according to Liddle “less extr_me than the extr_mists” and my reply to a comment acc_sing Liddle having an “0bsession with J_ws & M_slims”.

          • Snow

            The automatic moderation has become so extreme I have tried and failed to write the last sentence 10 times and it won’t let me write a normal sentence

          • Snow

            Whoever set or designed the automatic moderation is an utter cretin

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you blame me for your posts.

            I condemn all terrorism, you refuse to do so. Repeatedly.

          • Snow

            That obviously depends on who defines what is and what is not terrorism. When/if we discuss a specific incident of terrorism I will happily tell you if I condemn it or not. However, I won’t sit there in a histrionic, narcissistic, virtue-signalling, incontinent pool of emotions bleating out like Simon Schama on Question Time and humiliating and demeaning myself.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I’ll just note your apologia, and leave it at that.

            As for your condemnation of “Not In My Name”…

    • Maureen Fisher

      Good he has an “obsession” as there’s a plague of religious fundamentalism in our midst.

    • nutsingha

      ‘Tiresome’ for those who are either too lazy, or too stupid to confront the real risks of Islam to the west. I’m glad he has an ‘obsession’ with this – someone has the guts to face the truth, instead of walking into oblivion blindly. Sadly, oblivion will come with people like you who are willfully ignoring the destruction of your own society and culture.

      Assuming you aren’t a 5th columnist yourself.

      I haven’t read everything he has written, but I don’t see evidence of a Jewish obsession either.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        The “guts” to actively try and create the dividing lines, where Muslims have nowhere to turn other than the extremists? As you call for your destruction…

        • “nowhere to turn other than the extremists”

          Nonsense, they can turn to their local church, where a friendly priest will welcome them and forgive their sins..

          • Leon Wolfeson

            …except for people like you, outside to prevent them, right.

          • Typical trollery/attempt at provocation. You are beneath contempt.

    • sebastian2

      Not at all. It is stimulating, thought provoking and, in this world of obsessive and naive multiculturalism, a timely reminder of certain crucial facts we ignore or dismiss at our peril.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Ah the “naive” view of allowing i.e. Sihks and Jews…

  • ‘Moderate’ or ‘extremist’ they’re all the same from our cultural perspective, backward and barbaric.

  • sebastian2

    The only valid question is whether or not the qur’an and the hadith, plus the shar’ia are “moderate”, for it is these that govern and regulate the entire mohammedan outlook (with minor exceptions). And they are not moderate. Their purpose is to provide a doctrine of imperial jihad by any means, and to justify it; and to exercise totalitarian control over all of life and thought once conquest has been won. Moderate? You must be mad or joking.

    Mohammedans cannot contradict or compromise (except for temporary convenience) any of this. As such, they cannot ever be “moderate”. The best they can do is to act as though they are; but if they truly adopted moderation – challenged the doctrine – and thought and acted accordingly, they wouldn’t be mohammedans. They would be apostates. A bit like Yasmin Alibhai-Brown.

    We’ve all grown weary of the Religion of Peace rhubarb. We know it to be false. Just as unlikely is the “moderate” islam for this would be to betray the very ideology that, since birth, they have been terrified into believing. Since there can be no “moderate” creed, there can be no “moderate” followers of it.

    • notinmyname

      I’ve often thought that the Koran should be redacted. After all, Christians were obliged to change their views on Jewish culpabilty for deicide post Second Vatican Council.

      • sebastian2

        I agree and would probably go much further. But consider what happens to those who try to alter the divine and immutable word of a tribal deity. The best we can do for now is to expose its fallacies and improbabilities – of which there are many – and weather the inevitable storm. Either way, we – even if mohammedans can – cannot forever defer to this absolute concocted nonsense. To do so is both intellectually and morally dishonest.

      • Lindum

        They have done that – the Ahmadiyya -they took out all the nasty bits – and the result? The Ahmadiyya are hunted like dogs by the rest of the religion of peace.

        • notinmyname

          Precisely. The Ahmadiyya deserve our wholehearted support then!

    • Leon Wolfeson

      So you don’t know what Muslims actually believe and do. Right.

      Your Religion of War… you know it’s true, right. As you try and force Muslims into the hands of the extremists.

      Your extremism…

      • Lindum

        See the Trevor Phillips research and tv prog.

        Show me a Moslim society that is peaceful for non Moslims.

        • Zaba

          show me a muzlim society that is peaceful in any way.

          • Lindum

            Jordan? Perhaps?

          • Zaba

            Yes, you can tell by the warm peace between Jordan and Israel, eh?

          • Lindum

            Look, you set a pretty hard task – I’m trying. One I would go for as peaceful is Brunei.

        • Mara Naile-Akim

          indonesia

        • Mara Naile-Akim

          kazakhstan

          • Zalacain

            Both Kazakhstan and Albania have a long and quite recent history of Communist domination where all religions were suppressed. Give it time and you’ll see extremism sprout in both countries.

          • notinmyname

            Ho f*****g ho!

          • Lindum

            Kazakstan has outlawed 15 Moslim terror organizations, so I guess it’s not as peaceful as you think.

        • Mara Naile-Akim

          albania

          • Lindum

            Maybe Jordan too. But it’s not a very good record is it?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          See more propaganda, right, as you admit you have no idea idea in your blind Religion of War…
          Show me a totalitarian state of your type which is peaceful, fill stop.

          • Lindum

            Where did I admit I have no idea of “my” blind religion of war?!
            A totalitarian state of “my” type? What is my type?
            Is this reply intended for me?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you deny what you’ve called for, and indeed your posts.
            Orwell was not writing a manual!

          • Lindum

            Cut and paste what I called for.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Sure, as soon as the cheque clears.

            I don’t do obvious work which can be seen clearly by anyone with eyes for free.
            Fact; Orwell was not writing a manual!

          • Lindum

            So you admit I didn’t say what you said I did.
            Look, you old fool. Have you not worked out you are replying to the wrong person? If you cannot follow 21st century media, get back to writing letters to the Times.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you try and lie what I said, Orwellian.
            Your posts exist.

            As you then spout off some random ageism, while trying to deny your posts. You’d like to censor me for not fitting your totalitarian ideal, check.

            Fact, once more, so inconvenient for you; Orwell was not writing a manual.

      • Alex Lothian

        We don`t drive Muslims to extremism, they can`t even live peacefully amongst themselves.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Your personalities claim you don’t follow through, you’re all piss and wind?

          And tell me, those Northern Irish who can’t live peacefully amongst themselves…

          • Zaba

            61% of your koran is about ‘unbelievers’.
            What’s up with that?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You’re confused. You claimed to speak for Muslims.
            I don’t, and am not Islamic.

            What’s up with your ignorance of what your own faith believes and practices?

          • Zaba

            19% of the koran is about punishment to be inflicted on kaffirs.
            What kind of ‘religion’ is islam, eh?

          • Lindum

            Was NI a religious conflict? Did the IRA ever claim they were killing for Catholicism? I recall Catholics marching saying “not in my name.” I never recall a priest advocating violence, nor a terrorist “killing for Jesus.”.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            ..You’re not aware of the issues in NI? Hmm.

            And you’re not aware of the Muslims saying not in my name, etc? Right.

          • Lindum

            I am aware of one person saying “not in my name” – and the guy who said it wasn’t a Moslim. I am also aware of millions on the streets demonstrating to kill Salman Rushdie, yet I see no Moslim mass demonstrations for “not in my name.”

            As for NI – your knowledge of it is very superficial. Give me the names of Cathlic bishops calling for killings of unbelievers.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you’re not aware of them, right.

            And you claim that my detailed knowledge is superficial because you say so…want to restrict things to Bishops, check… your friends like the NTLF…

            You know, they and their “kingdom of God and Christ in Tripura.”

          • Lindum

            Reading is not your strong point is it? In a discussion about Ulster you bring in a group in India. Are you very old?

          • Ray Spring

            Answer the question. ‘Give me the names of Catholic bishops calling for killing of unbelievers’.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you didn’t read my post, check.

          • Ray Spring

            Still no names. Answer the question and provide the names of Catholic Bishops calling for the killing of unbelievers. Just answer the question.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Still no reading, and a refusal to give your name…

            As you don’t notice people like your beloved Bishop Rt. Rev. Fr. Charles Wamika.

          • Ray Spring

            Good. We have one name so far. Where he is from, I have no idea. But one in the world does not constitute an epidemic. What I do know is that Moslem people have, in the name of Allah, set off bombs in many European countries.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you don’t know your ally? Hmm.

            As you try and condemn other people for being so much milder…. en-mass no less…

  • Verk

    I chatted to a Muslim bloke the other day. Nice, lucid, calm, eloquent fellow, with a grasp of irony, nuance, humour and fun.
    Na, only joking. He was a c***, like all the others.

    • Roger Hudson

      Nice one, Verk.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Blaming other people for your issues? Now…

  • Graeme S

    Nailed it

  • DaHitman

    Moderate Muslims don’t exist, the Koran tells them to lie until their numbers grow…………read the Koran it tells you why they’re all the same, its pure evil

    • MathMan

      There are two types of Muslims- terrorists and terrorist sympathizers.

      • Roger Hudson

        No, there are good ones and bad ones. The bad ones want to kill. The good ones don’t want to kill us: they want the bad ones to kill us.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          You’re projecting from your own ideology.

          • patrickirish

            there are Muslims who want all Jews killed and there are ……?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Islamists? Yes.

            But they’re hardly the only minority group who do.

          • Zaba

            islam is based on Jew and Christian Hared.
            It’s in the koran.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Oh, thanks for that view as a Muslim.
            Most other Muslims don’t agree.

          • Zaba

            Most other Muslims don’t agree.

            Only because 80% of muzlims are illiterate, eh?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you have no idea about the statistic, and spew hate. Same old..

          • Zaba

            You:
            Most other Muslims don’t agree.

            In that case, since Jew and Christian hatred IS in the islamic trilogy,
            they are expressing blasphemy.

            We know what the penalty for blasphemy is, eh?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            That’s your view as a Muslim. Most disagree.

          • patrickirish

            Name one Leon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Far right.

          • Zaba

            name another ‘group’ that has Jew and Christian hatred codified.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Sure – Aum Shinrikyo

          • Sue Smith

            You’ve pinched that word “projection” from me when I accused you of it. Typical narcissist; a vain-glorious plagiarist and attention-seeking troll completely devoid of friends. Listen up; we are not your friends just because people comment on your trolling now and again.

            Amazing how you’ve projected your own perfidy onto others (or attempted to do so) by repeating to them exactly what’s part of your own ‘personality’ (as far as it goes). They say you should listen to what a narcissist says because it reveals to others everything about the narcissist himself!!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Wild accusations of “pinching”, check.

            So you describing yourself;

            “Typical narcissist; a vain-glorious plagiarist and attention-seeking troll completely devoid of friends”

            Your personalities are my enemies, right, as you whine that not believing just as you do is trolling, and you’re amazed by your fantasies, as you whine about “perfidy”, spew some crap about ‘personality’ and note how you show yourself to be a fantasist.

            Well, your self-description certainly seems rosier than your other words, so…

          • Zaba

            nah
            It’s all in the koran and hadiths
            devout muzlims modeling mohammad

          • Leon Wolfeson

            …You claim, as an Islamist, I hear you.

            Good thing most Muslims don’t agree.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        …says the pro-extremism fanatic, trying to boost recruitment for extremists.

        You’re part of the problem.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      You want to decry moderate Muslims and promote extremism, check.

      • DaHitman

        There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim you thick (censored). You are either Muslim or one of the (censored) that helped spread their satanic cult in the west

        • Sue Smith

          He’s a lonely, under-appreciated, vain-glorious and narcissistic tool.

          Apart from that, everything else seems OK!!! LOL

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Yes, I hear your blanket PC bigotry, as you try to “censor” your hate of Jews like me…

          As you once again try and push people into the extremism.

          • Zaba

            blanket PC bigotry;
            nothin’ TRUMPS the koran for that!

            The Quran plainly tells Muslims that they are a favored race, while those of other religions are “perverted transgressors”:

            Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And the Tanach tells Jews…etc.

            Never mind, again, what people actually do – you’re into thought crimes and blaming people based on those. Your belief in your supremacy…

          • Zaba

            Typical muzlim false comparison.
            We don’t live by the Bible.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you’re saying as a Muslim that you’re making a false comparison, that you DO live by the Bible?
            Hmm.

            Really, really odd.

          • DaHitman

            I don’t hate no one, just a satanic cult, you people appease its followers………….theres a reason Muslim countries are backward and the only ones with money are those with oil.

            There’s a reason lefties like you troll right-wing media, you’re pathetic losers with no life

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I don’t appease your satantic cult, as you note capitalism.

            As you spew PC bigotry at me.

          • DaHitman

            You’re the one who hates capitalism, you love Islam and call anyone who doesn’t, you also have no life hence troll right-wing media.

            Why do you bother getting up in the morning when this is all you have?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Correct. I’m pro-free market myself.
            False.
            False.
            False.
            False.

            And unlike you, wild accusations isn’t all I have. Your desire to censor me on those grounds…

          • Zaba

            Why do you bother getting up in the morning….

            Most likely, paid to.

        • Zaba

          I vote muzlim.
          No others defend islam so fiercely.

          • DaHitman

            Yes Islam being that good you don’t want to live in an Islamic country, you Muslims must be the thickest people on planet earth

      • Zaba

        kaffirs are learning about islam.
        check!

        • Leon Wolfeson

          ….You’re not a kaffir, per what you said.

  • rtj1211

    The answer to your question depends entirely on your definition of the word ‘moderate’ and whether you consider ‘Muslims’ who do not obey the literal command of the Koran at all times not to be ‘Muslims’ but ‘apostates’, ‘heretics’ or whatever.

    ‘Moderation’ can be defined as ‘the views of the most boring and pragmatic 25% of the population’ or they could be defined as the views of some elite minority sect or it could be defined by some absolute measurement system which would have to be drawn up by some folks or other.

    Obeying the literal command of any Holy Book depends on what you define the literal command to be: i.e. is every word interpreted as would be interpreted by an 8 year old child of reasonable mental faculties, should it be interpreted in allegorical terms (and which allegory to use will no doubt raise debate heatedly amongst the hotter heads here) and how should you deal with conflicting advice from different verses/chapters of any given Holy Book??

    What happens if different people interpret the Holy Book differently, thereby seeing obedience in different terms? Who is moderate and who is not??

    After all, forcible conscription for the first world war was not considered extremist terrorism by the UK Government in 1914 – 18, whereas knowing what we were sending those young men to as we do nowadays, I would put it on a par with sending the Jews to Auschwitz. There was no evil of the nazis involved in WW I, merely a few bunches of corrupt rich and powerful folks who expected oiks to die in their millions because they were too useless to resolve their differences diplomatically.

    I’m not sure carpet bombing servile innocent Muslims in Iraq was particularly ‘moderate’ either. Moderation would have involved bumping off Saddam Hussein using an elite hit squad. However many million tons of ordnance we dropped, I wouldn’t call that very ‘moderate’.

    But apparently it is more moderate than killing a few journalists in Paris.

    We in the West have absolutely no clue about what real death involves. We suffer tens to the odd hundred every so often.

    But we expect Muslim lands to experience tens to hundreds of thousands of dead without question, as they are the evil ones and we are the liberators.

    I find such arguments difficult, but no-one should for one second equate my defence of the rights of put down peaceful people in Muslim countries with any support for Jihadi nutters.

    Although quite what we expect Muslims to do in response to our bombing and warfare over the centuries I’m not quite sure……

    What I do know is that expecting hundreds of thousands of them to die without any expectation of retaliation is mentally subnormal in the extreme……..

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Quite, but some people would rather condemn people for thought crimes rather than caring about what they actually believe.

    • andyrwebman

      “I’m not sure carpet bombing servile innocent Muslims in Iraq was particularly ‘moderate’ either.”

      I don’t suppose you’re aware that far more Iraqis have been killed by fellow Iraqi insurgents than were ever killed by western forces?

      You might want to consider that – the West came and went, but the Mulsims kept consistently killing each other long afterwards.

      But the issue isn’t really about terrorism, or violence – which most people on both sides don;t want. It’s really about what sort of society we want in peacetime, what freedoms we want, what prohibitions we want.

      This is the true gulf between the West and Islam – and wringing your hands with guilt about wars will not change this.

      • Mara Naile-Akim

        ‘You might want to consider that – the West came and went, but the Mulsims kept consistently killing each other long afterwards.’

        maybe when cameron stops helping the terrorists in saudi and instead tries opposing them then things might change?

    • Tom M

      “……..in response to our bombing and warfare over the centuries…..”
      That sentence makes it look like the West are and have always been the aggressors.
      I’m sure you are aware that whatever else the world was doing around the 7th C The newly created Islamic state was on the move and invaded Syria, Egypt, North Africa, Iraq, Iran reaching up to China. They continued and reached up into Spain and France at this end whilst progressing to the Indus river on the Indian sub continent at the other end and eventually laid seige to Vienna several times after invading Turkey and claiming Istanbul for their religion.
      I think it would be more pertinent to ask what they expect us to do in response to the continual and unremitting warfare this religion has inflicted upon the world for the last 1300 years.

  • Tiberii_filius

    I am reliably informed that Muslims often ask Christian ministers to pray in their house if they suspect a spirit is giving the place a chill or turning the TV on at night. Imams don’t cut the mustard in the face of such a challenge. We’re all sons of Abraham, after all.

    • notinmyname

      Not me. LOL

  • Nick

    The picture at the start of this article makes me feel ill.

    • Duke Amir Often

      That’s a caricature. You should see the REAL Rod Liddle.

  • Central power

    Interestingly the feminists never attack the religion of peace.

    • JohnJ

      It is far easier to have only one enemy – the white male.
      It is an old Lenin/Trotsky trick, unite with the enemy’s enemy and use them to overthrow the enemy. Like they did with Mensheviks.
      But the Bolsheviks were smart and not prone to hysterics, sentimentalism and anarchy.
      Fundamental Islam is far far worse as they want to die and anyway, the rabid feminists will convert. The rest will just submit.

    • Mara Naile-Akim

      no, they are too busy funding shelters for women fleeing muslim arranged marriages

      much better than talking

      • Zaba

        The problem is islam

  • Surprised god wants to see their bottoms and their socks. The lack of dignity is very telling.

    • Andy Capp

      The pong must be awful

      • That’s why they’re in the open air, I expect.

  • William Matthews

    The problem is the Qu’ran, not the individual sects. Ahmadiyyas are to Islam, as Mormons are to Christianity. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is their Joseph Smith. If you graft an entirely new set of scriptures on to an old set, is it really the same religion? Jews and Christians feel free to discuss. As for Deobandis, Wahhabis, Hezbollah, and so on: I feel we’re just being drawn into Sunni vs Shia (Iran vs Saudi) politics & propaganda. The Qu’ran, that’s the problem. The Qu’ran needs to be undermined.

    • Hameed

      Ahmadiyya are to mainstream as Jesus was to his adversaries and are being persecuted similarly. Both Ahmadiyya and others believe in the same ‘Shahada’; ‘there is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God’ and the same Quran so no new scripture as you are implying.

      • William Matthews

        I wasn’t implying new scripture, but they’ve added quite a bit on. They aren’t Muslim in the orthodox sense, but then neither are Mormons orthodox Christians. Just a loose parallel. 🙂

    • notinmyname

      If there’s a problem with the Koran, Mahommedan theologians should redact and selectively edit problematic passages. After all, most Christians were obliged in the 1950s and 60s to recast notions of Jewish collective responsibility for deicide. We would never tolerate such an idea now. Why should Christians and those who are not-of-the-Book be anathematized by intolerant Mahommedans?

      • Zaba

        nice try
        mohammad created the koran to be ‘perfect and unchangeable’.
        To even think about change is blasphemy, and by now we all know the
        penalty for that, eh?

        • notinmyname

          That is precisely my point.

      • William Matthews

        I don’t think it can be done. The Koran is the perfect word of God (so they claim) What man can edit it? They would go completely bat-s**t-crazy.

    • Zaba

      The koran needs to be banned…..as hate speech.

  • Hameed

    “a prominent member of the university’s Islamic society entered and distributed leaflets calling for the social boycott and “capital punishment” of Ahmadi Muslims.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/25/muslim-council-of-britain-ahmadi-asad-shah

    If I remember correctly incitement to murder used to be a crime in the UK. These Islamists get away with so much but are still the most unhappy ones. What more do they want?

  • evad666

    Nice Oxymoron in the Title “Moderate Muslims”, very funny.
    Read ISBN 978-0-349-11879-6 God’s Terrorists by Charles Allen.

  • Mara Naile-Akim

    people said exactly the same about the jews a 100 years ago. They integrated and never attempted a take-over, no matter how hard the rod liddles of the day tried to convince us otherwise

    • Bloated Goat

      Muslims haven’t intergrated. Do keep up.

      • Mara Naile-Akim

        exactly what would have been said about the jews circa 1905.

        they managed to integrate and so will the muslims

        • Zalacain

          Could you give me an example of a democratic non Islamic country in which large numbers of Muslims successfully integrated?

          • Zaba

            How about any successful muzlim country?
            There are 56 to choose from…..

          • Lindum

            Jordan? Brunei? What’s that 5% max?

          • Zaba

            Is there a muzlim country on the moon?

          • D J

            Have you seen the laws passed recently in both? Not good.

          • Mara Naile-Akim

            only ourselves to blame, when Muslim countries tried to have democratic governments (like in iran in the 50’s) we overthrew them and replaced them with our own tyrants

          • Zalacain

            The Americans did that in many countries especially in South America eg. Chile. Yet they are almost all now democratic. The reason Iran is not a democracy is that it is a Muslim theocracy. The main motivator of the dictatorship is Islam, that is why it has lasted so long.

          • Mara Naile-Akim

            oh that’s alright then, we did our best to derail them and yet it’s their fault

            reality is that half of the hardline religious governments in the middle east are only there because of us. Starting with Dave’s best friends the Saudis. Shame about that, but fundamentalism was the West’s way of fighting Russia and communism. Nothing personal, just business.

          • Zalacain

            Islamic countries tend to be poor, violent and dictatorships. To blame the west for all of that is nonsensical. People have to take responsibility for their own actions.

          • JohnJ

            Mara – every point you made has been demolished. Perhaps it’s time you moved to a few Islamic paradises and saw what is happening. It has nothing to do with the West. It is the nature of the theocracy/tribalism that is all part of Islam. Nepotism and corruption is just how these places exist. The only countries that work have very strong tribal families ruling with an iron fist. The others rely of expats or other sections of the populations to keep the place going. Also you may like to watch as it all gets worse and more Islamic. e.g. Bangladesh.

          • Mara Naile-Akim

            Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Malaysia, Morocco…

          • Zalacain

            Morocco and Indonesia have economies that compare somewhat unfavourably with Greece.
            Kazakhstan is a dictatorship with a lot of oil and gas.
            Malaysia has a lot of non Muslims (about 40% of the population) and they tend to be the ones that run the actual private economy, the actual wealth creation part. And they get taxes extra for their trouble.

          • Mara Naile-Akim

            so what? You expect them to have countries like Sweden? On what basis, given recent history? When would any of them have enjoyed a period of stability sufficient to build up say an industrial base? Nearly all of them were colonies who were prevented from developing industrially by great powers who needed markets to sell their goods to and didn’t want competition. And prevented from developing politically by having the watchful eye of the West over them to make sure they didn’t have people in power who didn’t give the western corporations the very best trade deals (remember iran in the 50’s). Given that, I say they’ve done quite well.

          • Zalacain

            Singapore is not Muslim but was a poor colony. How does it’s economy compare to Malaysia’s to the north?
            The point is, that there isn’t a single Muslim country that has a success comparable to a European country. The ones that do best either have lots of oil or lots of non-Muslims in them, or both. But there are no successful meritocracies.
            The whole Islamic world. All 1.6 billion of them, have produced less Nobel prizes in science since WW2, than Harvard University alone. Just think about it.

          • Birtles

            Most Muslim countries were only colonies of European powers for a very short time, even Algeria was only colonized for not much more than a century. Syria, Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon were only controlled by European powers for a few decades, and were not colonized by them. By contrast, much of central and southern Europe was subject to centuries of Ottoman imperialism, repression and brutality, while the rest of Europe was constantly threatened by Islam until the defeats at the hands of Prince Eugene saw off the Ottoman threat.

          • Mara Naile-Akim

            Russia.

          • Zalacain

            As in Chechnia, you mean?

          • Mara Naile-Akim

            Tatarstan, Bashkyrkostan…

            Chechnya was a result of years of Soviet and then Russian persecution

          • Zalacain

            I’ve lived in Bashkiria and in Kazakhstan, and let me tell you, even in the 1990’s when I was there you started to see the split by religion. This is the reason Putin is being so aggressive in Syria, he is scared of the break up of Russia.

          • Mara Naile-Akim

            yet in both countries (russia and kazakhstan) the two co-exist peacefully. And there is zero chance Muslims will want to desert Russia now, their religious leaders are in Putin’s pocket everywhere from Chechnya to the far east. 15 years ago it was different, yes, but not now.

          • Zalacain

            Time will tell.

          • Zalacain

            Chechnia (both wars, but especially the second one) was motivated primarily by religion.

          • Mara Naile-Akim

            you should read up on russo-chechen relations since 1827. I recommend Avtorkhanov, he’s a smart guy. Religion played a part, no doubt, but it was also a war of independence caused by severe past grievances. Imagine it was Georgia and not Chechnya fighting for independence: how different would your assessment be? But in reality the only difference between the two was administrative status.

          • Snow

            The old “foreign policy” argument again.

        • Brexit

          How can a Muslim integrate if sharia law is antithetical to Liberal Democracy?
          I won’t hold my breath waiting for your scrambled politically correct answer.

          • Mara Naile-Akim

            same way adherents of every other religion integrate. Most religious texts contain writings that are against liberal democracy.

          • JohnJ

            “. Most religious texts contain writings…” Great – so which parts of the Quran should the Muslims ignore? The Quran is online – just give a quick list.

        • Zalacain

          That is a straw man argument. The fact that some people may have said 100 years ago that Jews wouldn’t integrate has no bearing on Muslim’s ability or willingness to integrate.

          • Mara Naile-Akim

            it just shows that there are people in this country who need to have a group to hate. If not Muslims then Jews. If not Jews then Irishmen. You get the drift.

          • Zalacain

            There are indeed many bigots here. But so what, the point remains, are Muslims likely to integrate or not? Does belief in their religion go hand in hand with democracy, freedom of speech, respect for women and gay rights? I think not.

          • Enoch Powell

            I think you’ll find that it is a section of Islamic Society that hates us.

          • patrickirish

            Yes, some truth in that but that does not make what others are saying untrue.

          • mark

            Yes we get the drift, no lie is too low, too depraved, too evil for you to try, in serving your god, satan.

          • Snow

            All the polls show the hate is in the other direction – especially Muslims hating Jews. Why are you always perverting the truth?

            That’s what this article is all about.

            Anti-Semiticism is increasing mainly because of the massive increase in UK’s Muslim population, especially in London.

        • Tom M

          So on the same tack then how long will it be before Islam stops persecuting the Jews do you think?

          • Mara Naile-Akim

            historically, it was christians that persecuted jews

          • patrickirish

            Historically it was everyone the came in contact with who persecuted them. It was what was known as a power struggle. The Babylonians, the Romans, the Philistines (sorry other way round – they one that power struggle)……

          • Steven

            we’re not speaking historically, we’re talking about here and now. Incidentally, Jews were indeed persecuted by Muslims in the past as well.

          • Tom M

            It is undeniable that various factions throughout history have persecuted the Jews starting a long time before Christianity ever existed . However none have written this into their religious texts or have been as determined and consistent as Islam.
            It would appear that instead of something in history that gains traction for no apparent reason then dies off Islam continues to see all their woes as rooted in Israel and the Jews and have even recently reached the racist genocidal heights of announcing publically that they would like to eradicate Israel with a nuclear device.

          • Katherine McChesney

            Be specific. It was the Roman Catholic church. And in the Holy Bible it was people in future Muslim countries who persecuted the Hebrews.

        • Alex Lothian

          Rubbish, who would want to integrate with people who worship a paedophile.

          • Mara Naile-Akim

            if you go far enough back, most of our royalty were paedophiles, as they married children off to each other (and they were expected to produce heirs as soon as they could). Yet we have no problem respecting them as part of our ‘tradition’

          • Zalacain

            Yes, but the aren’t worshipped. Big difference.

          • mark

            Of course paedophilia was only one of muhampigs many sexual perversions – none of which are thought of as wrong because muhampigs example is the one all muslims are to base their life on.

          • Snow

            You’re comparing hundreds of years ago with today, which is a worthless argument.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Who would want to integrate with a religion that killed 6m jews in the Holocaust? Or is that a mere detail of history?

          • Steven

            A “religion” didn’t kill 6 million Jews – and certainly not in the name of Christianity.

          • Katherine McChesney

            YES, one did. The Roman Church’s pope was called “Hitlers Pope”. There are many photos of priests and bishops saluting Hitler. One photo shows the pope meeting Hitler and one with Hitler standing the door of a Roman Catholic church.

          • Steven

            Yes, but there were also priests who ended up in the death camps. It proves there are good Christians and bad Christians – the Holocaust was not perpetrated in the name of a religion, nor were the Nazis particularly religious. Indeed, many of their tropes were anti-religion.

          • RightThinkingMan

            What drivel! European “civilisation” killed 6m Jews. Don’t preach to others about antisemitism. Europe invented and industrialised it. All Christians to man!

          • Steven

            European “civilisation” isn’t a religion, you complete thicko.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh dear! 6m dead Jews and the European Christians did it. Whats your excuse “wasn’t me, guv?”

          • Steven

            The problem here is that you are just too stupid to understand a simple sentence. They weren’t murdered in the name of Christianity.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh yes they were! Ask the German Christians !

          • Steven

            No – they weren’t, you complete imbecile.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Of course! European white men kill 6m jews – nothing to do with me guv?! What did they teach you at that nasty little poly/redbrick you went to?

          • Steven

            Oh dear. Let’s try flogging a dead horse with a simple question – did the Nazis murder 6 million Jews in the name of Christianity?

          • RightThinkingMan

            Yes

          • Steven

            Thanks for confirming your status as an ignorant moron.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh still no apology for the Holocaust! Another denier – Christians, no mate, we didn’t do it?!

          • Steven

            The Holocaust was perpetrated primarily by people who were Christians.
            It was not carried out in the name of Christianity.
            Why is this so difficult to understand?

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh , love the distinction! Am sure the 6m who died will be soooooooo happy now! It wasn’t Christianity that killed us – it was “people who were Christians”. What is it like being…a bigot?

          • Steven

            You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am defending the evil people who committed the worst crime the world has known. I am not – and I would be careful about your accusations, you know nothing about me. I am merely making the distinction between people who murder in the name of a religion, for religious reasons, and those who happen to be a particular religion who murder (primarily) for other reasons. It shouldn’t be that difficult to understand.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Don’t tell me! I don’t care what some numpty like you thinks. Tell the dead 6m Jews! Tell them – it wasn’t Christianity that killed them, on no, it was Christians. I love the hair splitting. What wonderfully self serving drivel from the so called religion of “peace”. Don’t make me laugh. 6m dead Jews – thanks Jesus!

          • Steven

            I’m on your side! You have refused to understand something fairly simple.

        • Bloated Goat

          Yes. We must all be patient and wait another two thousand years.

        • Enoch Powell

          No.

          It is us who will end up integrating with them.

          In fifty years your children will be forced to become muslim in order to live in the majority Muslim Islamic State of Britain.

        • patrickirish

          You are either ignorant of history or deceptive.

        • Steven

          Based on what? No sign of it.

        • Snow

          You only have to watch Channels 4’s Mosques Uncovered – The Return ( on Vimeo) to see that normal integration will never happen. Trevor Phillips, former head of the race relations commission said as much.

          Reverse integration is happening now because of the left liberals in the education system and the media ( especially the dominant BBC) and will continue at speed in about a generation when the Muslim population in London becomes dominant.

          We’ve seen it happening so many times. The latest incident is when Ofsted demanded a school in a predominately white area to put photos of ethnically diverse people on the walls.

      • Duke Amir Often

        Have you integrated? Tell us all about it.

        • Bloated Goat

          The discussion is not about those who integrate. It’s about those who do not.

          • Duke Amir Often

            So stop bleating about integration.

            Or learn the meanings of words that you attempt to use.

          • Bloated Goat

            Do you actually have anything to contribute or are you just spouting nonsense because discussions about reality make you uncomfortable?

    • Augustus

      Islam is a religion conceived in a barbarous brain for the use of a barbarous people. It has always been incapable of adapting itself to civiliza­tion. Wherever it has dominated it has extinguished any motivation towards progress and impeded the evolution of its society.

      • RightThinkingMan

        I guess you are talking about yourself!

        • Steven

          Give us an exception.

    • Brexit

      I don’t recall Jews chopping peoples heads off while they quoted from the Koran.

      • Lindum

        Nor while quoting from the Torah.

        • Mara Naile-Akim

          but your equivalent 100 years ago would I am sure insist that they have a secret society drinking blood of babies, poisoning wells and plotting world takeover

          replace jews with muslims and how little has changed

          • Zalacain

            The difference and this is a very important one, is that Jews drinking the blood of babies was untrue. Crimes and terrorism in the name of Islam are totally true. If you can’t see the difference, you are in big trouble.

          • Toy Pupanbai

            The blood drinking thing may come from the sucking clean of the newly circumcised penis?

          • Zalacain

            Yeah, I was thinking that as I wrote it, but left it, as basically it is true that Jews didn’t eat babies etc.

          • Steven

            Not the same at all. How simple minded.

      • RightThinkingMan

        No – they put a uniform on a guy call them the “IDF” and then shoot them

        • Steven

          You are a Jew baiter. This blog is nothing to do with Jews.

        • Athelstane

          There are IDF soldiers on the loose in Rotherham?

    • Lindum

      At no point did the Jews number almost double every decade, neither did they create terror organizations against their host societies. Even today the Jewish population is only a couple of hundred thousand.

      • Duke Amir Often

        Stop counting Jews, please. It’s hardly any of your business.

        • patrickirish

          Why not, he can count what and whomever he chose.

          • Duke Amir Often

            Oh, you berk.

            He can do what he likes but getting shirty about the Jews will do him no good.

            Or you.

          • patrickirish

            You sound like you are making threats, there is civilised discourse on this site, and we don’t need you calling people berks and telling people what to do. Go and join a neo-nazi site.

      • Monkish

        I’m an assimilated Jew and you’re welcome to include me in your census! While “frum” ultra-orthodox non-assimilated Jews may be a nuisance locally, they abide by the ancient Talmudic dictum of “dina malkuta dina” which means the law of the kingdom is law. Jews are forbidden from imposing Jewish law on non-Jews. This is what distinguishes our creed from Islam.

        • RightThinkingMan

          They do it on the West Bank?! Doh!

          • Steven

            No they don’t.

          • Monkish

            Really? Palestinians are banned from eating shrimp, drawing insulting cartoons of Jews and are coeced into observing the Sabbath?

        • Birtles

          Indeed, and Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. No Jew is going to threaten me with conversion t Judaism or death.

        • gugwully

          I’ve been learning about the Talmud, it says a lot about the Goyim and what Jews can do to them.
          I can well understand why it says that any Jew revealing the truth to the Gentiles should be killed.
          I think more people need to know that they are only animals here to serve the chosen race.

          • Monkish

            Which edition are you reading? The one edited by Stormfront (bite-size snippets for pea-brained Nazis), the massive Steinsaltz English edition or are you so well versed in Aramaic that you can read it in the original? I have Steinsaltz so why don’t you send me some page references and I can show you the basics.

            We Jews do believe that the Talmud should be protected from morons. Your comment is evidence enough for that. But there’s always hope, as the story of that Jewish ex-Jobbik supporter illustrates.

            As for the chosen race, well, doesn’t that perfectly encapsulate your worldview? Bit much to project your own fantasies of white supremacy on a people whose history and philosophy you clearly lack the intellect or inclination to even begin to understand.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you claim to be Jewish, but make wild hate claims which are not in the Talmud.

          • Monkish

            Erm, I’m responding to a person who is clearly an anti-semite. How is “dina d’malkuta dina” a “hate claim”!? You’re out of your depth sonny.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “We Jews do believe that the Talmud should be protected from morons.”

            As you say I as a Jew can’t know…right.

            Your attempt to divert to another part of your post…how goes gugwully being an idiot excuse your expressing much the same kind of worldview?

          • Monkish

            Sorry, but you express yourself so obliquely and have such difficulty understanding the rhetorical devices one commonly uses in a discussion that conversation is impossible. I think we would both save precious time if we called it quits.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I am not to blame for your poor English skills, as you want to censor me, because you’re so afraid of other people’s views, check.

            “We Jews do believe that the Talmud should be protected from morons.” – this is a 100% fake view, from your political agenda…

          • Monkish

            It’s a rhetorical device, not a statement about who is actually eligible to study Talmud (although it would be nice if all translations were as fine and as endowed with a critical apparatus as Steinsaltz’s, that would dissuade Nazis from reading it)! You’re either so literal-minded you border or autism or just very, very obtuse. Impossible to converse with a such a person. Now buzz off and find some schmo of your caliber to pester.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            It’s a lie, period.

            As you accuse me of various things, and say you can’t talk with such Jews as me, and as you demand censorship, right.

          • Monkish

            Another nonsensical comment. I can’t talk with you because you comprehension of the written word (esp. irony, nuance and rhetoric) is abysmal. I have a slightly autistic uncle who’s just like you. The moment you employ a metaphor or sarcasm you are “lying.” It’s extremely frustrating. Our conversation ends here.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “Another nonsensical comment.”

            Yes, your comment is. You choose not to communicate with me and instead post screeds of whining, as you make up fantasies rather than read my posts. You then talk about your family issues, and try and claim your lying and your bigotry is “metaphore” or “sarcasm”.

            Run away, frustrated non-Jew!

          • Zaba

            Lies

    • mark

      Satans muslims of course do not tell people that hitler is a hero to muslims, that he had 2 divisions of muslims, that he got many of his ideas of evil ways to treat jews from satans muslims.

    • Toy Pupanbai

      Worth a look:

      ‘A Rational study of Radical Islam’.

      Dr. Bill Warner. (youtube.)

      • Zaba

        Warner is a terrific resource.

        His website is politicalislam.com

    • gugwully

      I don’t think a statement has been written that was more wrong.

    • Snow

      You realise British Jewish population is one-tenth of the Musllim population, and it is Declining. The Muslim population is growing at 10 times the rate of the UK population as a whole.

      The Muslim population in UK will more than double in just 34 years, and in London that rate is even greater. That’s without Turkey joining the EU, a country with a population of 80 million, 99% Muslim.

      London’s population was 12.4% Muslim (2011 census) and depended on self identification, with the option “prefer not to say”. Now likely to be at least 15% not including illegal immigrants. Based on Pew Research growth rates London Muslim population likely to be 35% to 40% in 34 years. If Turkey joins the EU it London could well become majority Muslim in 34 years, many of those Mulims having been born abroad.

      You see how ridiculous your comparison with Jews is? And we’ve never seen the Jews come to Europe and be responsible for atrocities like those of Cologne, Brussels attack, Paris attack, Charlie Hebdo etc.

      • RightThinkingMan

        Hmm, let’s ask the the 800k dead Iraqis about the benefits if western rule?! Ha! Let’s kill you to make you civilised?!

        • Snow

          That figure of 800K is bogus Jihadist Dabiq propaganda if you’re suggesting the Allied forces killed them. Send a credible link to where you got it, and not some loony left pro Palestinian organisation that Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of.

          • RightThinkingMan

            Ha – as ever, lots of arabs die and you don’t care! Of course we didn’t invade Iraq, those people didn’t die. It wasn’t our fault. Geez, why do they hate us? Look forward to arab army invading UK, killing 800k to bring us “democracy”. Go back under the turd you crawled out from

          • Snow

            Glad you agree it was bogus Jihadist Dabiq propaganda.

            Do you get the online or paper version of Dabiq incidentally?

            and if anyone crawled from under a turd we both know who that was, don’t we?

          • RightThinkingMan

            Oh bitter redbrick Spectator reader. I bet you live somewhere really provincial and backward. And have some horrible middle office job. No wonder you are bitter. No one cares! Loser!

          • Zaba

            You are part of the problem.

            Mark Steyn: We’re being “softened up for an Islamic sharia state”

            Steyn notes that by forbidding ordinary people from speaking openly about Islam’s threat to the West,

            censors are making it easier for a sharia state to eventually take over in Europe and beyond.

            http://www.therebel.media/mark_steyn_we_re_being_softened_up_for_an_islamic_sharia_state

          • Snow

            You sound like Simon Schama in QT attacking Rod Liddle saying he is from Surburbia. And like Simon Schama you’re making an utter fool of yourself. Nothing could be further from reality. Provincial & backward – the complete opposite in fact.

          • Zaba

            lots of arabs die

            Most muzlims are not Arab
            The problem is islam.

          • RightThinkingMan

            The problem is trash like you who think they are “educated”

          • Zaba

            Cause I’m not ‘a rightfully guided thinker’ like you are eh?

          • dwarfpoo

            Arab army invasion doubtful sunshine, the men of Europe stand and fight, they don’t run across the world like babies leaving their vulnerable behind.Go cry somewhere else you sound unhinged! Don’t you have a big black rock to go kiss..haha

          • RightThinkingMan

            What like the Nazis? Did they fight?

        • Snow

          I noticed you did not try to refute anything I wrote. You just did that typical thing that people like you do – to deflect to another tenuously related topic, in an attempt to change the subject, knowing the argument is unwinnable.

        • Zaba

          blame mohammad

  • Duke Amir Often

    Oooh, he can’t stand them Muslims. They really get on his wick.

  • Fabz Smith

    Sorry no such thing as moderate Islam, the Koran and Muhammed is the center piece of Islam you cannot say you are Muslim without following the instructions in Islam s so called holy book if there is no submission you are not Muslim, the Koran say s non believer are to be murdered, beheaded, raped, pay more taxes etc, do not listen to the lies of Muslim the Koran tells them the can deceive infidels. they tell you the Koran has not changed so don’t expect any change for Muslims.

    • Duke Amir Often

      Spare us from all religious nutters, eh? I was reading your comments about Adam and Eve…

      • Jimmy

        Amir.. a nutter is a mentally unstable person I can assure you I have no mental issues, God lovingly made man with a free will you can agree or disagree with my comments its up to you, you may have chosen to believe there is no God this is folly on your part, as for me my belief is based on the holy scriptures and by studying other religions activites and comparing with what the almighty God has instructed my observations has brought me to the conclusion which a share with others and for your information I hate no one! If religion say they serve God almighty the must be Godlike in their activities God dominant quality is “Love” he cannot be evil any one or religious organisation who promote and practice evil is not from God almighty, but doing the bidding of the evil one the man slayer Satan.

  • Benji0804

    No such thing as moderate Muslims, they all play nice until they become the majority and start

    taking over the country from within by “peacefully” at first than the last of non Muslims by force.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Why do you think Muslims share your ideology’s views?

      • jack

        Leon, are you seriously comparing the views of a man who stated the obvious with men whose views are obvious and there for all to read in an Arabic manual?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          I’m saying they’re not far apart in their exclusionary views.

          Fortunately, there are not that many Islamists either in the UK, and we should take action against the Saudi Preachers, and screw selling the Saudis arms as well.

          • Zaba

            exclusionary views.

            The koran.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            …Which only speaks for your views.

          • Zaba

            Let the koran speak mohammad;s views:

            The Quran plainly tells Muslims that they are a favored race, while those of other religions are “perverted transgressors”:

            Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, keep pitching heretical views based on bad translations and copy/paste from hate websites.

            As you ignore i.e. Christianity’s chosen people beliefs.

          • Zaba

            hate websites.

            AKA facts about islam

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, claims hate is fact.

            If this was a while go, you’d have been peddling the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, of course.

          • Zaba

            Thanks for asking.
            Here is a list of strong voices.

            counter jihad sites

            politicalislam.com

            themuslimissue.wordpress.com

            gatesofvienna.net

            weaselzippers.us

            ibloga.blogspot.com

            elderofziyon.blogspot.com

            islam 101 at jihadwatch.org

            thereligionofpeace.com

            steynonline.com

            barenakedislam.com

            blazingcatfur.ca

            PamelaGeller.com

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, a list of pro-Jihad sites, trying to cause hate and violence against Muslims, no matter what they believe or practice. Your sort of weak cowards, saying the same far right crap as before. A list of the morally bankrupt, the fanatics, the yellow running dogs…

          • Zaba

            Time to mention another islamic specialty:
            Accuse your opponent of what yourself do.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, thanks for talking – Zaba – about your specialty – and your trying to drag so many people who in your collectivist mania you identify down your perfidious path.

            When they certainly wouldn’t claim you as one of their own.

          • Zaba

            down your perfidious path.

            Hmmmm
            Almost sounds opposite of ‘the straight path’, eh?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your path is so crooked it spirals and loops.

          • Zaba

            Sounds like life, eh?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No. Just your life choices.

          • Zaba

            Was a rhetorical question…….

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And now you claim that.

          • Zaba

            “leon” is a well known professional troll who specialises in provocative and deliberately slanderous “statements”. Please ignore him.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, the wild claims that those not like must be you, as you demand censorship and say facts are slanderous, you’re just ihatejews on another account of course.

          • Tamerlane

            He hates Jews? He must be from the Labour Party then.

            Cluck, Cluck.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Mr. Cluck-Ken, your excuses for people attacking Jews, holding your views, is just sad.

            As you use media excuses to attack British democracy, of course.

        • Zaba

          …”leon” is a well known professional troll who specialises in provocative and deliberately slanderous “statements”. Please ignore him.

  • Baz

    Islam will not tolerate other religions.

    • Snow

      Except maybe Ahmadi Muslims.

      • Zaba

        Most muzlims consider Achmadis not to be muzlim…..

  • mark

    Try to find a muslim that does not lie to disguise the intolerant and violent teachings of islam against non muslims… you will find isis.

    Every other muslim lies to disguise islams actual teachings and agenda (untill they can have isis in our countries in control).

    There are no moderate muslims.

    • RightThinkingMan

      There are no decent white people! Ask the 6m Jews!

  • Toy Pupanbai

    A moderate Muslim is a land mine waiting for the insertion of a fuse!

  • Excellent article, which no leftist will read or believe if they do read. You see, they all have their heads up where the sun doesn’t shine looking for the light. There are no extremist Muslims. They are merely “devout” followers of their religion. At this point in the UK and Europe, civil war will be the only answer, if enough people pull their heads out of where the sun doesn’t shine and face reality.

    • Katherine McChesney

      ALL MUSLIMS ARE EXTREMISTS. ALL OF THEM FOLLOW THE SAME SATANIC BOOK.

      • Duke Amir Often

        End CAPITAL punishment!

        • Tara Connor

          –not bloody likely, hon;since the prisons are too full now, they might start just killing them, not jailin’ them.

      • RightThinkingMan

        All Christians are evil Look at how many they killed in Iraq1

    • Tara Connor

      Thank God America still has firearms–its the Muslim guide-to-communication. Yes, now the H-BOMB MAKES SENSE!

  • gugwully

    A good Muslim is an exMuslim.

    • RightThinkingMan

      The only good Spectator reader is a dead one. Given how old and smelly they are, not a long time to wait.

  • Tara Connor

    moderate Muslims—??—if you’re an American woman, a moderate Muslim doesn’t rape and kill you right away–you get introduced first.

    • RightThinkingMan

      Moderate Americans? I mean how many did the yanks kills in Iraq? “Hello, I am here to give you democracy by killing you? What, you don’t like me know?”

  • TheAtheist

    Even great Muslims like Maajid Nawaz who is a fantastic speaker and a great thinker don’t seem to make a difference to this big problem we have invited into our societies. And the question deepens as I can’t see any viable solution but to ban Islam from Europe until they have embraced enlightenment, freedom of speech, the right to offend, welcome humour and satire in any form and yes, that includes cartoons…..in a nutshell, until they became Westernised. Cultural relativism does not work in all cases, there are cultures that are backwards, hateful and truly belong to the Iron Age and the only way to make people see that, is to ridicule and to criticise their ideas with intellectual honesty.

    • RightThinkingMan

      Les ban atheists from the UK. Until theests become civilised, then perhaps we can let them in. I mean how many did Stalin kill?!

  • Thaddeus lovelock

    I actually think moderate means moderately extreme when applied to Muslims.

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